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Old 03-09-2014, 11:12 AM   #276 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde View Post
Am I correct that your overall summed-up opinion is that machines will forever be excluded from experiencing consciousness equivalent to a human or even animal?
Humans and non-human animals* Yes

Take a look at number 3. (from George Dvorsky 'You'll Probably Never Upload Your Mind Into A Computer')
1. Brain functions are not computable
2. We'll never solve the hard problem of consciousness
3. We'll never solve the binding problem
4. Panpsychism is true
5. Mind-body dualism is true
6. It would be unethical to develop
7. We can never be sure it works
8. Uploaded minds would be vulnerable to hacking and abuse



From Are there problems with the metaphor of mind-uploading?

(1) Transhumanists are materialists/physicalists.
(2) Materialists/physicalists do not view the mind as a “thing” that is separate from the human brain.
(3) The transference thesis (and uploading more generally) assumes that the mind is a thing that is separate from the human brain.
(4) Therefore, transhumanists cannot believe in the transference thesis (and uploading more generally).
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:24 AM   #277 (permalink)
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Is the brain too “warm, wet and noisy” for quantum computing?
Quote:
Quantum computing: the first 540 million years

David Pearce
dave@hedweb.com ABSTRACT
Is the mind/brain best modelled as a classical computer or a quantum computer? No classical computer can solve the binding problem - the creation of a unified percept from widely distributed neural processing of individual object characteristics. Hence even the most sophisticated silicon robots are lame in a real-world setting. By contrast, evidence that the mind/brain is a quantum computer lies right before one's eyes in the form of the unity of perception - an unfakeable signature of quantum coherence. The evolutionary success of organic robots depends on the ability of our central nervous system to generate dynamic simulations of fitness-relevant patterns in the environment. Unlike classical computers, organic quantum computers can "bind" multiple features (edges, colours, motion, etc) into unitary objects and unitary world-simulations with a "refresh rate" of many billions per second (cf. the persistence of vision as experienced watching a movie run at 30 frames per second). These almost real-time simulations take the guise of what we call the macroscopic world: a spectacular egocentric simulation run by every vertebrate CNS that taps into the world's fundamental quantum substrate. Our highly adaptive capacity to generate data-driven unitary world-simulations is strongly conserved across the vertebrate line and beyond - a capacity attested by the massively parallel neural architecture of the CNS. Unitary world-simulation enables organic robots effortlessly to solve the computational challenges of navigating a hostile environment that would leave the fastest classical supercomputer grinding away until Doomsday. By contrast, the capacity for serial linguistic thought and formal logico-mathematical reasoning is a late evolutionary novelty executed by a slow, brittle virtual machine running on top of its quantum parent. Contra Tegmark, the existence of ultra-rapid thermally-induced decoherence in the mind/brain doesn't refute the case for naturally-evolved quantum computing. For just as a few cubic millimeters of neocortical tissue can encode an arbitrarily large immensity of phenomenal space, likewise each ultra-short quantum-coherent "frame" can encode hundreds of milliseconds of phenomenal time. Contra the Penrose-Hameroff "Orch OR" model of consciousness, quantum mechanics can't explain the Hard Problem as posed by materialist metaphysics i.e. how a brain supposedly composed of insentient matter could generate consciousness. But macroscopic quantum coherence can explain how a unitary experiential field is constructed from what would otherwise be a mere aggregate of mind-dust (cf. Galen Strawson's "Does physicalism entail panpsychism?") The theory presented predicts that digital computers - and all inorganic robots with a classical computational architecture - will 1) never be able efficiently to perform complex real-world tasks that require that the binding problem be solved; and 2) never be interestingly conscious since they are endowed with no unity of consciousness beyond their constituent microqualia - here hypothesized to be the stuff of the world as described by the field-theoretic formalism of physics. By contrast, tomorrow's artificial quantum computers may manifest modes of unitary consciousness unknown to contemporary organic life.
.

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Old 03-09-2014, 03:36 PM   #278 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dent View Post
Take a look at number 3. (from George Dvorsky 'You'll Probably Never Upload Your Mind Into A Computer')
1. Brain functions are not computable
2. We'll never solve the hard problem of consciousness
3. We'll never solve the binding problem
4. Panpsychism is true
5. Mind-body dualism is true
6. It would be unethical to develop
7. We can never be sure it works
8. Uploaded minds would be vulnerable to hacking and abuse

Clarke's three laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

#4, Panpsychism is true, would you mind expanding on that?




Also, your knowledge on this subject appears to have been increasing pretty steadily over the past couple years, it definitely exceeds mine. Have you given any thought on going to school for philosophy, or starting a website writing this stuff?

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Old 04-07-2014, 09:00 AM   #279 (permalink)
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Interesting project.

The Cyborg and the Noble Savage -- Ethics in the war on information poverty

Quote:
OLPC designers accepted the challenge to create a powerful lap-top computer that can operate reliably in regions that have no electricity, that can network with peers in regions without telephone cables or cellular hubs, that can endure rough handling in dusty or humid conditions, that can display information clearly in sunshine or in shade, that can capture and record photographs or moving pictures with sound, that offers tight security adjustable to the user's needs, that is rich with multi-media resources for communication and for learning, that is immediately adaptable to eight different languages with four different alphabets and that can do all of this for a price point of $100!

The name of the children's machine is "XO", christened for the childlike icon that is presented to the user interface. The computers themselves require no external power source. They are intended to communicate with each other in a wireless mesh network4 within a locality that ideally includes a central server5 at a local school or community house.
http://laptop.org/en/

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Old 04-10-2014, 03:25 PM   #280 (permalink)
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I spent 5 minutes looking into the laptop thing and it looks like a flop, I’m very impressed with Effective altruism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, lots are disillusioned with charity but these guys seem to know how to get shit done (Researchers at GiveWell have calculated that some charities are hundreds or thousands of times more effective than others.[6])

A course on philosophy of mind (hopefully with some quantum biology thrown in) sounds like a good idea, learning the intricacies of some of the terms seems hopeless as a bystander.
"There’s so much terminological wreckage in the philosophy of mind that it’s close to collapse as a shared enterprise."
-- Galen Strawson

Panpsychism – The fundamental “stuff” of the world is experiential
Indistinguishable from magic is exactly how I (and some clever people!) see strong emergence.
One of the slogans of panpsychism is "Nothing can give what it does not possess" which I’m leaning towards after falling out of love with something like :
1) The fundamental stuff of the world is wholly non-experiential/ Non-sentient physical forms are all that exist.
2) ???
3) ??? 2+2=5
4) And hence consciousness exists.
David Chalmers is a dualist panpsychist, Pearce and Strawson are monist panpsychists, I don’t understand enough to be able to know the difference between them and how they come to disagree.

Here's 41 very short clips from an event in germany called geiststaubmind_dust - the mental as funda-mental (mind dust) we're made of star-stuff but are stars made of mind-stuff?
Panpsychism doesn't (edit - have to) mean that you think there's something it's like to be a chair or table.


What I came here to post :
I'm on the lookout for a picture of the land mammals 10,000 years ago to compare with this one, and maybe predictions for 10,000 years from now.


Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The MacCready Explosion
According to calculations by Paul MacCready (1999), at the dawn of human agriculture 10,000 years ago, the worldwide human population plus their livestock and pets was ~0.1% of the terrestrial vertebrate biomass. Today, he calculates, it is 98%! (Most of that is cattle.)
We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form. - William Ralph Inge

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Old 04-11-2014, 10:37 PM   #282 (permalink)
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The parallels between this movement and the personal goals of Buddhism in general are really striking.

This would be an awesome talk to see on video: http://www.transhumanism.org/index.p...71226cronopis/
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Old 04-14-2014, 02:32 PM   #283 (permalink)
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Transhumanism, at least in its early stages, will only be yet another way for a few chosen people to control us and monitor our behavior.
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Old 04-14-2014, 08:28 PM   #284 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Johnny Richter View Post
Transhumanism, at least in its early stages, will only be yet another way for a few chosen people to control us and monitor our behavior.
Technology goes both ways, my friend. Embrace your inner Julian Assange.
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Old 06-19-2014, 11:09 AM   #285 (permalink)
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In the future will we be able to prove we're not zombies?
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:44 PM   #286 (permalink)
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Through her sister?s eyes: Conjoined twins Tatiana and Krista were extraordinary from the beginning
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Old 07-15-2014, 11:04 AM   #287 (permalink)
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PaaaaaNPSYCHISM!
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Old 07-15-2014, 01:18 PM   #288 (permalink)
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how conscienceness doe
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Old 07-15-2014, 01:47 PM   #289 (permalink)
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Why panpsychism doesn't help explain consciousness | Philip Goff - Academia.edu
http://consc.net/papers/combination.pdf
not a scooby doo

Edit : there's also Integrated information theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Giulio Tononi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
exciting times

2nd :

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Old 07-30-2014, 02:51 PM   #290 (permalink)
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The Radical Plan To Eliminate Earth's Predatory Species

Comments are pretty much this, appeal to nature is strong!
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Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

Predators keep animal populations in check

Muh carrying capacity
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Old 07-31-2014, 03:15 PM   #291 (permalink)
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I give it about another year or two of this obsessive "Dent (Earth Ape) trying to intellectually master the Universe" trend before he pops and goes insane.

You're gonna die, man. just try to have some fun.

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

― Terence McKenna
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Old 07-31-2014, 03:31 PM   #292 (permalink)
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I think i'll tenselessly exist, past present and future are on an equal footing, none any more "real" than the other.

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Old 07-31-2014, 11:55 PM   #294 (permalink)
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I wholeheartedly believe that certain psychoactive plants have much more to do with the evolution of Mind (whatever Mind is)/development of the neocortex in prehistory than humanity is currently ready to accept.

Evolution of the neocortex: Perspective from developmental biology

Music, Art, Abstract Conceptualization, Math, Language, etc. --- If one seriously (and honestly) analyzes the stark cognitive differences between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom, it becomes apparent that there is much more mystery to unfold.

(Note: other animals seem to have rudimentary progressions at lower levels than humans -- some primates, dolphins, extinct neanderthal, etc. I have often speculated if there are psychoactive plants that have evolved underwater as well.)

Environmental variables lost to history (again, I lean towards plants) during our species' evolution seem to be a likely explanation (outside of the metaphysical -- if not intertwined) for these differences.

Also, been reading a lot of Leary lately, this is an interesting theory on innate stages of consciousness that can be "unlocked" through various means:

Eight-circuit model of consciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Related: Carl Jung's "Stages Of Life"


MYSTERIES ABOUND, NIGGAZ!!!

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Originally Posted by Seneca
The time will come when diligent research over long periods will bring to light things which now lie hidden. A single lifetime, even though entirely devoted to the sky, would not be enough for the investigation of so vast a subject...And so this knowledge will be unfolded only through long successive ages. There will come a time when our descendants will be amazed that we did not know things that are so plain to them...Many discoveries are reserved for ages still to come, when memory of us will have been effaced. Our universe is a sorry little affair unless it has in it something for every age to investigate...Nature does not reveal her mysteries once and for all.

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

― Terence McKenna

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Old 08-01-2014, 12:32 AM   #295 (permalink)
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Excerpt from Arthur C. Clarke's 2010: The Odyssey 2 (Sequel to 2001: A Space Odyssey)

Quote:
Now the long wait was ending. On yet another world, intelligence had been born and was escaping from its planetary cradle. An ancient experiment was about to reach its climax.

Those who had begun that experiment, so long ago, had not been men - or even remotely human. But they were flesh and blood, and when they looked out across the deeps of space, they had felt awe, and wonder, and loneliness. As soon as they possessed the power, they set forth for the stars. In their explorations, they encountered life in many forms and watched the workings of evolution on a thousand worlds. They saw how often the first faint sparks of intelligence flickered and died in the cosmic night.

And because, in all the Galaxy, they had found nothing more precious than Mind, they encouraged its dawning everywhere. They became farmers in the fields of stars; they sowed, and sometimes they reaped.

And sometimes, dispassionately, they had to weed.

The great dinosaurs had long since perished when the survey ship entered the Solar System after a voyage that had already lasted a thousand years. It swept past the frozen outer planets, paused briefly above the deserts of dying Mars, and presently looked down on Earth.

Spread out beneath them, the explorers saw a world swarming with life. For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all they could, they began to modify. They tinkered with the destinies of many species on land and in the ocean. But which of their experiments would succeed, they could not know for at least a million years.

They were patient, but they were not yet immortal. So much remained to do in this universe of a hundred billion suns, and other worlds were calling. So they set out once more into the abyss, knowing that they would never come this way again.

Nor was there any need. The servants they had left behind would do the rest.

On Earth the glaciers came and went, while above them the changeless Moon still carried its secret. With a yet slower rhythm than the polar ice, the tides of civilization ebbed and flowed across the Galaxy. Strange and beautiful and terrible empires rose and fell, and passed on their knowledge to their successors. Earth was not forgotten, but another visit would serve little purpose. It was one of a million silent worlds, few of which would ever speak.

And now, out among the stars, evolution was driving toward new goals. The first explorers of Earth had long since come to the limits of flesh and blood; as soon as their machines were better than their bodies, it was time to move. First their brains, and then their thoughts alone, they transferred into shining new homes of metal and plastic.

In these, they roamed among the stars. They no longer built spaceships. They were spaceships.

But the age of the Machine-entities swiftly passed. In their ceaseless experimenting, they had learned to store knowledge in the structure of space itself, and to preserve their thoughts for eternity in frozen lattices of light. They could become creatures of radiation, free at last from the tyranny of matter.

Into pure energy, therefore, they presently transformed themselves; and on a thousand worlds the empty shells they had discarded twitched for a while in a mindless dance of death, then crumbled into rust.

They were lords of the Galaxy, and beyond the reach of time. They could rove at will among the stars and sink like a subtle mist through the very interstices of space. But despite their godlike powers, they had not wholly forgotten their origin in the warm slime of a vanished sea.

And they still watched over the experiments their ancestors had started, so long ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

― Terence McKenna

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Old 08-01-2014, 02:44 AM   #296 (permalink)
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Also, after studying so much of Sagan's books and other works, the more I read Clarke's novels, I really see the fantastic potential of partnership between science fiction writers and actual scientists. Clarke actually specifically mentions Sagan from a future perspective in some of his books, and a lot of the plots are clearly drawn from what were only speculations by Sagan at the time. Although Clarke did pretty much invent the telecommunications satellite, so he was a scientist too I guess. Staying up late is fun.

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

― Terence McKenna
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:03 AM   #297 (permalink)
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Who had under? fresh off youtubes.
Consciousness and wave function collapse isn't a new thing, Hammeroff-penrose consciousness-causes-collapse has been around for 20 odd years, other ideas 60 years before that. I haven't seen this video yet, Chalmers is a "naturalistic dualist".



Here's an easy going documentary from a few years back starring Hugh Everett's son who is in a band, Hugh wasn't the best dad.
Quote:
The BAFTA and RTS Award-winning documentary PARALLEL WORLDS, PARALLEL LIVES follows the lead singer of US rock band EELS, MARK OLIVER EVERETT, on his journey of discovery across America to learn about the father he never knew, HUGH EVERETT III, the quantum physicist author of the Parallel Universe theory.

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Old 08-10-2014, 04:15 AM   #298 (permalink)
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What will the successor to Ape Grunts (I've thought for a few months now that this would be a fun name for a metal band, maybe with a Z APE GRUNTZ) be like? Any volunteers for a vulcan mind meld?

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Here's a post from Yudkowsky on non-human animal cognition

https://www.facebook.com/yudkowsky/p...52588738904228
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Old 08-10-2014, 06:57 AM   #299 (permalink)
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What will the successor to Ape Grunts (I've thought for a few months now that this would be a fun name for a metal band, maybe with a Z APE GRUNTZ) be like? Any volunteers for a vulcan mind meld?
Yes. The Vulcan "human emotion" parallels are so interesting. P.S. the working title of my first EP is "Ape Games"

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Old 08-10-2014, 06:58 AM   #300 (permalink)
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I've been up all night. I can't even think straight. Tomorrow, friend.

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

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