Who is going to hell? An argument for the Bible, Religion and God. - Page 3 - Nubblies.net Forums

Schroeder · 05-04-2005, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beebs:
Act ethically

And where do your ideas on ethics come from?

[ May 03, 2005, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Schroeder ]

Beebs · 05-04-2005, 12:42 AM

Rights, justice, utility, care. You?

Mr. Blonde · 05-04-2005, 12:44 AM

He's getting at the Bible being the foundation of all ethics. Which is wrong.

Schroeder · 05-04-2005, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beebs:
Rights, justice, utility, care

And where do those ideals come from?

Of course, my ethics would come from the Bible and my own personal beliefs.

Beebs · 05-04-2005, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Blonde:
He's getting at the Bible being the foundation of all ethics. Which is wrong.

Goddamnit, let me do this.

Schroeder · 05-04-2005, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Blonde:
He's getting at the Bible being the foundation of all ethics. Which is wrong.

Why's that wrong?

Mr. Blonde · 05-04-2005, 12:47 AM

Because the concept of right/wrong was around way before the Bible was, and that's basically what ethics are, when you get to the bottom of it.

[ May 03, 2005, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Blonde ]

Beebs · 05-04-2005, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Schroeder:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Beebs:
Rights, justice, utility, care

And where do those ideals come from?

Of course, my ethics would come from the Bible and my own personal beliefs.[/quote]
They do not come from anywhere, that is the same as asking "where do the laws of physics come from." Rights, justice, utility, and care exist, it is the ethicists job to simply observe what behaviors fit the criteria, and as time goes by people generally do a better job realizing which behaviors are ethical or unethical.

[ May 03, 2005, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Beebs ]

Ugly Bastard · 05-04-2005, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beebs:
Also you argue that man cannot know what god is, then go on to tell us what god is, its a bit contradictory. God could absolutely be the vengeful god of the old testament, god could very well be the exact version of god in the Q'uran, it is no less plausible than this pussy ass watered down multiple faith god of yours.

Haha, Beebs, wake up, it was an analogy. I wasn't "telling you what God is" as much as showing that we could never know what God is. Also, I wouldn't call it a "pusy ass watered down multiple faith god", it was just an interesting analogy, not anything I deeply believe in. I see your point though...

-Ugly Bastard

Beebs · 05-04-2005, 12:52 AM

Just painting with broad strokes to get the point across that if god exists, theres a fair chance he doesn't like you.

Schroeder · 05-04-2005, 12:54 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Beebs:

Quote:

Originally posted by Schroeder:
[qb]They do not come from anywhere, that is the same as asking "where do the laws of physics come from." Rights, justice, utility, and care exist, it is the ethicists job to simply observe what behaviors fit the criteria, and as time goes by people generally do a better job realizing which behaviors are ethical or unethical.

Ah, but a law of physics is a fact. What is right or what is justice is a very debatable thing.

Mr. Blonde · 05-04-2005, 12:56 AM

I'd say society decides what ethics are acceptable, not the Bible.

Beebs · 05-04-2005, 12:57 AM

We still don't know all the laws of physics, we still don't know ethics to perfection, we just happen to be further along in physics, although we aren't close to done with that either.

If we didnt have physics, the laws would work the same, if we didn't have ethicists, wrong would still be wrong.

Schroeder · 05-04-2005, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Blonde:
I'd say society decides what ethics are acceptable, not the Bible.

Our society was founded on the Bible.

One Nation Under God

Schroeder · 05-04-2005, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beebs:
If we didnt have physics, the laws would work the same, if we didn't have ethicists, wrong would still be wrong.

No, not true. Ethics is a judgeable thing. Wrong is not still wrong because right and wrong are judgeable things. I think abortion is wrong, others don't.

If anything, as America slips farther and farther from it's moral Christian start, what is right and what is wrong are becoming more and more gray. People are getting worse at judging right and wrong, not better.

Beebs · 05-04-2005, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Blonde:
I'd say society decides what ethics are acceptable, not the Bible.

Id say ethics are universal, and some cultures adhere to them better than others.

Quote:

Originally posted by Schroeder:
Our society was founded on the Bible.

One Nation Under God

Our society was also founded on securalism.

We hold these rights to be self evident.

[ May 03, 2005, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Beebs ]

Calamity Jane · 05-04-2005, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Blonde:
I'd say society decides what ethics are acceptable, not the Bible.

What about our ideas on murder, adultery, stealing? How to treat people? I believe those can all be found in the Bible.

Beebs · 05-04-2005, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Calamity Jane:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mr. Blonde:
I'd say society decides what ethics are acceptable, not the Bible.

What about our ideas on murder, adultery, stealing? How to treat people? I believe those can all be found in the Bible.[/quote]
They can also be found in every society that ever lived, BEFORE THE FUCKING BIBLE.

Mr. Blonde · 05-04-2005, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Schroeder:

If anything, as America slips farther and farther from it's moral Christian start, what is right and what is wrong are becoming more and more gray. People are getting worse at judging right and wrong, not better.

Depending on what religion or beliefs you hold, correct? I mean, you yourself said

Quote:

Originally posted by Schroeder:
What is right or what is justice is a very debatable thing.

Beebs · 05-04-2005, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Schroeder:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Beebs:
If we didnt have physics, the laws would work the same, if we didn't have ethicists, wrong would still be wrong.

No, not true. Ethics is a judgeable thing. Wrong is not still wrong because right and wrong are judgeable things. I think abortion is wrong, others don't.

If anything, as America slips farther and farther from it's moral Christian start, what is right and what is wrong are becoming more and more gray. People are getting worse at judging right and wrong, not better.[/quote]
Those christians owned people as property. It was wrong then, it is wrong now.

Just because people argue if abortion is right or wrong doesn't mean its neither, it means people haven't quite figured it out yet, I have no yet figured it out, but it is either right or wrong, regardless of what I think.

Mr. Blonde · 05-04-2005, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beebs:
Those christians owned people as property. It was wrong then, it is wrong now.

SNAP.

05-04-2005, 01:23 AM

Yes, Blonde, we all read it.

Schroeder: Beebs has laid out some very nice points, and I agree with him on all of them.

So if his points don't convince you, maybe the fact that 2 people who are each smarter than you (specifically Beebs and I) agree that Beebs is right will change your mind.

[ May 03, 2005, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: DJ FC ]

Schroeder · 05-04-2005, 01:24 AM

So, beebs, are you arguing that any situation, any debate, is eventually capable of being simplified down to a black and white answer?

Because that would be a bad argument.

Beebs · 05-04-2005, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Schroeder:
So, beebs, are you arguing that any situation, any debate, is eventually capable of being simplified down to a black and white answer?

Because that would be a bad argument.

Where in the fuck did I say that? Yes, that would be a bad argument, congradulations. I'm saying ethical relativism is incorrect.

05-04-2005, 01:26 AM

Schroeder:

Are you arguing that arguments can be good or bad?

That would not be a sound argument, and more than likely not a valid one.

Edit: This is especially true if you wish to hold the view that nothing is "black or white"

[ May 03, 2005, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: DJ FC ]

05-04-2005, 12:44 AM	#53 (permalink)
Mr. Blonde Spice Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 17,969 Internets: 278288	He's getting at the Bible being the foundation of all ethics. Which is wrong.
	Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing. ― Terence McKenna

05-04-2005, 12:47 AM	#57 (permalink)
Mr. Blonde Spice Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 17,969 Internets: 278288	Because the concept of right/wrong was around way before the Bible was, and that's basically what ethics are, when you get to the bottom of it. [ May 03, 2005, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Blonde ]
	Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing. ― Terence McKenna

05-04-2005, 12:56 AM	#62 (permalink)
Mr. Blonde Spice Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 17,969 Internets: 278288	I'd say society decides what ethics are acceptable, not the Bible.
	Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing. ― Terence McKenna

05-04-2005, 01:23 AM	#72 (permalink)
DJ FC Guest Posts: n/a	Yes, Blonde, we all read it. Schroeder: Beebs has laid out some very nice points, and I agree with him on all of them. So if his points don't convince you, maybe the fact that 2 people who are each smarter than you (specifically Beebs and I) agree that Beebs is right will change your mind. [ May 03, 2005, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: DJ FC ]
DJ FC Guest Posts: n/a

05-04-2005, 01:26 AM	#75 (permalink)
DJ FC Guest Posts: n/a	Schroeder: Are you arguing that arguments can be good or bad? That would not be a sound argument, and more than likely not a valid one. Edit: This is especially true if you wish to hold the view that nothing is "black or white" [ May 03, 2005, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: DJ FC ]
DJ FC Guest Posts: n/a

05-04-2005, 12:42 AM	#52 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	Rights, justice, utility, care. You?

05-04-2005, 12:52 AM	#60 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	Just painting with broad strokes to get the point across that if god exists, theres a fair chance he doesn't like you.

05-04-2005, 12:57 AM	#63 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	We still don't know all the laws of physics, we still don't know ethics to perfection, we just happen to be further along in physics, although we aren't close to done with that either. If we didnt have physics, the laws would work the same, if we didn't have ethicists, wrong would still be wrong.

05-04-2005, 01:24 AM	#73 (permalink)
Schroeder Unwanted Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,543 Internets: -885	So, beebs, are you arguing that any situation, any debate, is eventually capable of being simplified down to a black and white answer? Because that would be a bad argument.

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