Who is going to hell? An argument for the Bible, Religion and God.

[Fruitacious B]

The Greeks use to live in fear that Zeus would throw a lightning bolt at them if they don't obey. You live in fear that God/Jesus will make you burn for eternity if you don't obey. What if they were right, and Zeus has you in his crosshairs? Just because you believe it now, doesn't mean you won't look like a fool to generations thousands of years down the line.

I don't understand why it's so important to box onesself in with Christianity. Is it too hard just believe that there's more to this life that we will never understand until the time it comes? If you can believe that simple aspect, you leave yourself the room to learn infinitely more...from infinitely more angles. I belive in something, but that something will never be Christianity, because what I believe in is even bigger than that, and I doubt that whatever that 'something' is would appreciate me trying to define it.

Those who speak against Christianity don't have to twist things around to fit their goals. It's more interesting to watch blind faith twist around a person's logic in the face of straight-lined reason.

99.9%? Really? In that case, Aesop's Fables as well as The Iliad are also stone cold fact.

Someone once asked Buddha, "How do we escape the summer's heat?"
Buddha replied, "Jump into a burning furnace."

[vaga1220 *]

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

In the end one of us is right and one of us is wrong and we both ultimately know the implications of what will happen when one or the other happens.

False dichotomy. For all you know Crom laughs at you from his mountain.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

I feel like you guys try and find whatever loophole you can and then dig a wedge in it.

That's true, we do. When it comes to something as important as God you have to be as critical as possible - we're talking about big questions here, the biggest questions. Christians invite this kind of hyper scrutiny by claiming the Bible is infallible.

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

I believe the bible to be truth and you don't. I don't need to argue with you guys on why I believe what I believe.

You're right. The only reason we're arguing (this time around anyway) is because you asked Blonde if he believed in the historical significance of the Bible, because apparently you were sitting on something big.

Honestly, I'm fine with you believing what you want to. I think you're wrong, but If it makes you happy then I'm glad for you. But don't get a debate going when all you eventually do (every time) is fall back on the whole "I believe what I believe/ I have faith/ My personal experience..." rebuttal. That kind of statement shuts down any debate and defeats the purpose of you recommending books to Blonde in the first place.

[BigDongedHoe]

No I'm just not going to go in circles with 10 different people in a thread headhunting me. Ultimately my faith is exactly what it is, faith. It's not provable beyond a shadow of a doubt to be completely true and its not provable beyond a shadow of a doubt to completely disprove it either. There is thought behind what I believe but it is also heavily emotion based. So when I fall back to faith and how the Holy Spirit has worked in my life that is the end all be all for me because it is a very real thing.

[DDTempest]

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

Ultimately my faith is exactly what it is, faith. It's not provable beyond a shadow of a doubt to be completely true and its not provable beyond a shadow of a doubt to completely disprove it either.

You can't talk about the factual nature of the Bible and then fall back on the "faith" argument, that's cheating.

[Ugly Bastard]

I agree. BDH, you're taking a very intellectually cowardice line in this thread. You argue (and even instigate arguments!) with logic on behalf of the Bible and then when you start to lose that argument, you say "gee shucks, I believe what I believe, my faith is my faith, blah blah blah". Okay, we get it, you don't believe the Bible can be factually proven but you choose to believe anyway. That's fine. Just don't try to argue that the Bible is factually infallible if that's how you really feel.

[BigDongedHoe]

In my opinion the bible is factually infallible. I can't prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt anymore than you can prove it isn't. I feel like a skipping record... again the reason I spoke up was to prove that my faith isn't just an "irrational emotion". There is solid reasoning behind it (I guess you could debate whether you feel it is solid or not). I'm not trying to argue instigate an argument but I'll gladly respectfully discuss this. The Lord, Liar, or Lunatic theory is a very valid one to me.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

Ultimately my faith is exactly what it is, faith. It's not provable beyond a shadow of a doubt to be completely true and its not provable beyond a shadow of a doubt to completely disprove it either.

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

In my opinion the bible is factually infallible. I can't prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt anymore than you can prove it isn't. I feel like a skipping record...

That's because that's all you are. A skipping record, that plays back over and over and over again what it's told to from outside source. Rote memorization is not the same as critical thinking.

This argument is so flawed and overused it's hard to even address it, but i'll try (even though I know it's pointless)

Because you assert something that I can't disprove, I have to give it credence and/or respect? That is the most asinine thing i've ever heard. We can't disprove the things the mentally ill claim are "infallible truths", but we use the best (and arguably only) means of assessing the world around us, science, to decide whether or not they actually have a firm grasp on reality or not.

Just because you claim something is true does not mean people have to respect or give it any sort of legitimacy whatsoever. "I can't prove that there's not a monster in the room with me right now (Indeed, this is where the basis of the Flying Spaghetti Monster comes from, and Russell's teapot, and numerous other analogies), but you can't DISPROVE that a monster ISN'T in here with me, therefore I am right!!! Neener neener!!!"

BDH, I know you think this means a lot to you, and you claim and fall back on "well, it's faith, and what I believe, and no one can change that etc. etc. etc." ---But isn't it important to you that what you believe in is right???

As Fruit said, why pigeonhole yourself into something like Christianity where there is no possible way you can be right?

I thought of something to write in here as I was going to sleep, and it was a really good post but I completely forgot it. I think it has something to do with me reading your book, just so I can enhance my knowledge on the subject. But seriously BDH, most of us here aren't out to bash the fuck out of you or call you an idiot. I'm just trying to help you see the logical and rational faults in something you are absolutely certain on. You almost sound like an evangelical man, you aren't even acknowledging any faults of the Bible at all!

It's not like we're all Bible-hating satanists (well maybe Der Fuhrer), as Repug said earlier, you would be extremely hard pressed to find someone who DIDN'T want to believe in a supreme being or god. Are you fucking kidding me? Do you know how AWESOME that would be? Holy shit, somebody is up there has my back, and is watching over me, and even if something bad happens it's part of his big plan, and if I live a good life i'll get to live eternally in bliss! That sounds fucking AMAZING!!!

However, I can't just believe something just because I want to. What Christians almost never take into effect is human psychology and the fact that we've had to deal with the unexplainable bullshit, myriad hardships and many many unfair things over the course of human history, and our primitive brains had no other explanation for these things, so it found the best way possible to cope: Religion.

On a smaller scale, it's the exact same mechanism you see on facebook status updates when (usually a girl's) grandma dies, or she breaks up with her boyfriend.

"Everything happens for a reason"

That is an extremely comforting phrase when one looks into it. Maybe I got fired so I could get a BETTER job! Maybe they broke up with me so I could meet a guy that is SO MUCH BETTER! With this kind of perspective, everything that happens in our lives can be infinitely anthropomorphically suited to somehow, in the long term, benefiting us.

It would be amazing to believe in this. But just because something feels good, or makes life easier to deal with, or explains something that I don't otherwise have the intellect to understand (often the case with ignorance of science), doesn't mean I should give the idea the slightest bit of credence, let alone devote my entire life to it.

[Mr. Blonde]

Also, hate to beat a dead horse here, but back to the historical accuracy of the Bible -- How about all the shit they DIDN'T get right? Was that just metaphorical?

EDIT: I posted this before but I can't stress how important it is:

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[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

No I'm just not going to go in circles with 10 different people in a thread headhunting me.

Understandable. I hate that too.

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

again the reason I spoke up was to prove that my faith isn't just an "irrational emotion".

Emotion gets a bad name around here - it's logical most of the time. If somebody punches you and you get angry, is that irrational? Of course not. It's situational. I don't think your faith is based on irrational emotions - if anything I think it's based on logical emotion and flawed logic.

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

I'll gladly respectfully discuss this.

Me too.

[ninjaface]

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

The Lord, Liar, or Lunatic theory is a very valid one to me.

I'd hesitate to even call it a theory. You like this "theory" so much because it is purposefully designed to point you to choosing lord.

Here is a review that explains it better than I can.

Chapter 7-- The Trilemma-- Lord, Liar or Lunatic?


Lord, Liar, or Lunatic is also very limiting. Jesus could also have been made up. And lets just say he was a real person. The things he did could have been embellished. So there are 2 more choices that make it a more honest question.

But I already know what you're going to say. "But I believe jesus was real and everything said about him in the bible is true. So your 2 additional choices don't apply to me, so the answer is still lord. So HA."

You are so predictable.

[BigDongedHoe]

So logic aside what about the countless personal testimonies of millions? Are we all lying or crazy for claiming to have a personal relationship with Christ?

[Mr. Mistoffelees]

Yes, lets throw logic aside here for a minute so we can get down to the truth of the matter.

[Fruitacious B]

Depends, did Zeus take out the Greeks? Were the millions of them wrong?

What about present day? The millions of Hindu in India and surrounding areas...are they wrong? There's probably just as many of them as there are Christians. What makes yours better?

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

logic aside...

funny

[ninjaface]

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

So logic aside what about the countless personal testimonies of millions? Are we all lying or crazy for claiming to have a personal relationship with Christ?

My reply is along the same lines as what Fruitacious B said. You can get countless personal testimonies of millions for the other main religions. If you were able to travel back in time you'd find the exact same scenario.

It seems like you have a pretty myopic view of the world.

[f3lix]

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

So logic aside

He's definitely Christian

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

So logic aside what about the countless personal testimonies of millions? Are we all lying or crazy for claiming to have a personal relationship with Christ?

When you consider all the other people of all other religions past and present, the answer has to be "either you are or just as many, likely more, people of other religions are."

I do agree though that this thread is just going to be a bunch of us making more or less this same statement, and it's going to be pretty tiresome and a bit harsh on you.

[Fruitacious B]

We're 31 pages deep and counting...I'm sure most points have been made multiple times.

[Dent]

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

Not sure why it's taken me this long to find this website, just incase anyone needed convincing that Islam is fucking the world

Comparing Jesus and Muhammad, Christianity and Islam

[Mr. Blonde]

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I honestly can't believe how shitty and biased FOX is.

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[Mr. Blonde]

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I will be participating in this.

[f3lix]

Part of me wants to see such an event and the other part imagines how ugly it could become.

[Mr. Blonde]

That's the whole point; most people are letting Islam get away with violating free speech simply because they don't want things to "get ugly."

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

-paraphrased, apparently.

[f3lix]

If I were saying that I'd like to trade in my freedom of speech to protect me from religious nutjobs, then you could throw that quote at me. But I didn't. I just stated I'm not sure I want to see a bunch of irrational psychos get treated like human beings after that commit inhumane acts.

[Mr. Blonde]

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