Who is going to hell? An argument for the Bible, Religion and God.

[Schroeder]

Originally posted by DJ FC:
Yes, Blonde, we all read it.

Schroeder: Beebs has laid out some very nice points, and I agree with him on all of them.

So if his points don't convince you, maybe the fact that 2 people who are each smarter than you (specifically Beebs and I) agree that Beebs is right will change your mind.

Oh, DJ FC, your support of their cause is proof enough that they are wrong.

Lame.

[blackbirdsjoy]

<font size="5">Active I'm sorry I misunderstood the point</font>

[Pliedes]

I have an idea. Instead of arguing and bitching back and forth, why don't we try a different approach. Instead of making all these blanket statements and arbitrary points, why don't we all just list out what we personally believe and why. From there maybe we can help each other fill in the gaps, or at minimum have a conversation that isn't structure and led by the idiotic statements a few members. I realize this would be better suited as another thread, but first I'd like to know you think of such a proposal. You'd really have to examine yourself and define what you believe, but I really think it could be a worthwhile discussion. Thoughts?

A commendable idea.

[Mr. Mistoffelees]

Well I'm erect, anyone else?

[AcTivE]

That is what I am trying to do--while covering any area of disagreement.

doesn't seem to be working though, so i'll just write one long thread out.

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by blackbirdsjoy:
<font size="5">Active I'm sorry I misunderstood the point</font>

I forgive you.

[Ironic Mustache]

I'll admit right now that I didn't read this entire thread and I'll tell you why. By page 2 Schroeder pissed me off so bad that I couldn't wait to get to the end to tell him to fuck off.

I hope you die schroeder and then Buddha kicks your skinny ass for being a chode. Fucking tool.

Edit: I now read through everything and hate you even more.

[ May 04, 2005, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Ironic Mustache ]

[bloodyfart]

a couple of points after reading all this drivel:

1. all religions are not basically the same. that is a reductionist view that comes from complete ignorance of other religions.

2. living life like there is a god vs. living life like there is not a god is creating a non-existant distinction. why? because it is extremely arrogant to think that we know what such a god would want us to do if he did exist. why? because we are imperfect human beings trying to figure out what a perfect being wants. that is logically impossible. we can have theories about what we think god wants, but in the end, they are just that: theories. and like all theories, they can be wrong, so how do you live like god wants you to vs not how he wants you to if you dont know what god wants.

btw, you can say that you can look to the cannons to learn how to act, but i think you would be remiss in not admitting that cannons are riddled with contradictions on how to act. in the bible, god wipes out whole cities for sinning (sodom). so should we go around killing people who we think have poor morals? if not, why not? we are just acting the way god does, and we are supposed to be a mirror of him, right? thus, it is impossible to really know how god wants us to act.

moreover, i already explained that believing in god out of the fear of being kept out of heaven is not true belief. it is similar to saying that a wife that does everything for her husband cause she is afraid he will hit her is truely in love with her husband. you cant use fear of damnation for true faith.

3. finally, what about aborigines? if you look at the bible, you could interpret certain parts to say that those that dont find jesus live or will live in hell. aborigines wander the australian outback and may never in their life have the chance to hear the word jesus, let alone read the bible. so did god put them here to go to hell? he knew that the words of the christians wouldnt reach them, so what was he thinking? or do they get a special pass? and if they get a special pass, then how do we start to decide who does and who doesnt get that pass? what if your priest is a child molestor and molests you, so you stop believing in god? do you get a pass. if so, then what if your priest is bad at explaining the trinity, so you dont believe. do you get a pass? the exceptions that have to be created to make this philosophy that only people that believe in god get to be in heaven are far too great to even begin to examine.

[ May 04, 2005, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: bloodyfart ]

[MAGICLIT]

Originally posted by DJ FC:
But maybe God reallly isn't all of these things?

Maybe it's some kid playing 'The Sims,' and he'll only let you in if you say the code word.

Reading this reminded me of some of my earliest memories of my life.
I remember when I was a kid, like 3 or 4, I used to believe that life itself for everyone is just one big book that someone is reading, and the end of the book would be when I'd die.........reflecting on it now I see why I love to read or write, however it makes me think my parents may have been doing drugs when they concieved me (10)

[bloodyfart]

sounds like a minor case of schizo to me

[Mr. Mistoffelees]

Originally posted by bloodyfart:

3. finally, what about aborigines?

The aborigines aren't homo sapiens sapiens, there probably closer to homo erectus .

[bloodyfart]

jesus fucking christ you guys are nit picky asswads when you want to be.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally posted by bloodyfart:
jesus fucking christ you guys are nit picky asswads when you want to be.

Agreed

-Ugly Bastard

[Mr. Blonde]

Bloodyfart, that was a good post.

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by bloodyfart:
and like all theories, they can be wrong, so how do you live like god wants you to vs not how he wants you to if you dont know what god wants.

in the bible, god wipes out whole cities for sinning (sodom). so should we go around killing people who we think have poor morals? if not, why not? we are just acting the way god does, and we are supposed to be a mirror of him, right? thus, it is impossible to really know how god wants us to act.

couple things...

you would know what God wants, if you came to know what God was.

is he some dude? I would say, no he's not, so how can we put him in a position of a person and say--hey, we can destroy people, because God did.

Are we God? Do we have the right to destroy somethin we did not create?

in all of God's wisdom, do you really thing he would put salvation right out there and say--here, look at this, and you'll be saved! fuck that

the bible is full of storys, they can be taken out of context and used in a materialistic sense

or they can be understood to contain a deeper truth once you realize it is everywhere

those who interpret the Bible to be a collection of purely factual stories which should be scientific proof for a belief in "Salvation", are going to missing the point of a belief

[bloodyfart]

you are a bible thumper that didnt come to this discussion with an open mind. the more i show you the fallacy of your logic, the more dilluted your arguments will become.

first, at one point you say that we should beleive what the bible tells us. then, you say that we should see a deeper truth. what you in fact mean is that we should see your deeper truth.

what if i looked at one line in the bible which is where jesus says that the kingdom of god lies in our own hearts. from that line, which does exist, i could say that god is not some far off entity but i am god. furthermore, since what i consider to be "I" is constantly changing, then god is constantly changing. accordingly, since this is the case, then what god wants is constantly changing along with him, so i should not act in any way, shape, or form which is consistant with the bible because the god of back then is not the god of now, and what he wants may have changed. thus, i go out and fuck other men cause this could be what god wants now.

i am guessing that you would say that what i think is not really the truth because this does not stand in line with how you interpret that one line about the kingdom of god.

look. either you believe in the bible word for word if you are going to extrapulate from it what god wants or you dont believe it at all. otherwise, it becomes a game of interpretation. and in that game, i can interpret many things differently than you.

i know you may say that i am presenting a false dichotomy about belief in the bible, but you set up that dichotomy when you say that one interpretation is wrong and the other is right. if you want to put value judgements on interpretations, then you better fully believe or not at all.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally posted by bloodyfart:
you are a bible thumper that didnt come to this discussion with an open mind.

He's from the Bible Belt over here. That's basically what most christian's attitudes are around here. My way or the fucking highway.

[Beebs]

Active, it seems to me that you are basically saying "the bible has alot of good ideas on how to live" nobody is going to argue with you, but originally you said "why should I not base my beliefs on the bible?." If by "base your beliefs on the bible" you mean follow the basic moral code, then theres no reason not to, although the bible is far from the only collection of ideas to provide similar guidance, if you mean, why should you not stone people to death, it creates a whole seperate question.

It really seems to me like you keep changing the question. The bible is one of a large number of collections of thoughts on how to live a moral life, they all say pretty close to the same thing when it comes to how to treat people, and you can be a pretty good person by following them.

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Mr. Blonde:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bloodyfart:
you are a bible thumper that didnt come to this discussion with an open mind.

He's from the Bible Belt over here. That's basically what most christian's attitudes are around here. My way or the fucking highway.</font>[/quote]
that is the stereotype that you hold

[Mr. Blonde]

That's exactly what you're displaying, AcTivE, so as long as you continue to perpetuate it, I don't think that "that's a stereotype" isnt really a valid argument on your behalf.

EDIT: My bad about these statements. I got so caught up in the confusion of the threads that I got AcTivE's and Schroeder's posts confused. No offense with that one, AcTivE.

[ May 04, 2005, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Blonde ]

[ProfessorNumber]

Active, you may be smart, but you're just too stubborn. I still think my argument from the last religion thread holds water.

Lets hypothesize that Jesus/God is a salesmen. His story is that he created you, and is offering you a chance at eternal life with him. Sounds like a pretty good deal eh? Especially considering all he asks in return is for you to live your life like most good people do, believe in him, and worship him as your saviour. Honestly, it doesn't sound that hard.

But then the penny drops. What happens to all of the people that Jesus doesn't make a "sale" to? Apparently Jesus only likes sell salvation to North America and a few other small regions on the planet. As I'm typing this, there is family somewhere on the earth that has never heard of Jesus Christ. So what happens to them? Did they just get fucked out of enternal life and salvation because they happened to be born into a different religion?

Lets make some assumptions here for the sake of my argument:

1. God is the ONLY god
2. Christianity is the only correct religion.
3. You have to worship God in order not to go Hell

Damn. Looks as if 66% of the world is going to Hell, Active. Major drag eh? I mean, that would truly suck to be born into Hinduism only to find out when you die that your parents and geographical region picked the wrong religion! Your shit outta luck man!

Active, I want you to go up to your parents next time you see them, and thank them for living in Christian America. Give them a big hug, and relish the notion that you are going to heaven while 66% of your fellow humans are going to have their flesh melted off in the next life.

God must have left them out to dry. That sucks.

[SittinOnDubsWGW]

Originally posted by Mr. Blonde:
C)Were brought up that way, and will not open their mind to the possibility that you're going to rot in the ground for the rest of eternity after you die.

This possibility sucks, but it is possible.

Its just wierd when you think about life overall, and how it came about and what our purpose is.

I consider myself a Christian, but I do not condemn anybody for their beliefs. I think people that hate somebody for their religious beliefs/lack of is irrational. For all we know, we could all be wrong.

I see the Bible as a faith tool, and do not take it as absolute literary truth, but it has many figurative ideas that I believe are good.

[ May 05, 2005, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: SittinOnDubsWGW ]

[bloodyfart]

Originally posted by AcTivE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mr. Blonde:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bloodyfart:
you are a bible thumper that didnt come to this discussion with an open mind.

He's from the Bible Belt over here. That's basically what most christian's attitudes are around here. My way or the fucking highway.</font>[/quote]
that is the stereotype that you hold</font>[/quote]
why didnt you attack my logic?