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Unread 12-14-2010, 09:37 PM   #1026 (permalink)
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While I'm probably as much a part of it as anyone, we do tend to gang up on people who bring up religion.

Yes I feel I am right, but I don't think much productive comes from all of us gang-raping one guy.
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Unread 12-14-2010, 10:13 PM   #1027 (permalink)
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I feel like i've tried to be reasonable about religious discussions in this thread (I try not to resort to the likes of 'HAHAHAHA YOU RETARDED FAG RELIGION IS SO DUM"), and I feel like most of us have been pretty respectful and not so much "ganging up" on Dirty Harry just because we're talking to him about his issues and thoughts.

But I don't even know what BDH expects when he posts shit like this on Nubblies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe View Post
True, pure, unfiltered happiness has come from beginning to know my Creator and my heavenly father. There has been no earthly experience that has ever brought the pure joy that knowing Christ has. There has been moments when the Holy Spirit has been so overwhelming that I can't even use words powerful enoughto explain those moments.
Seriously, what's the point? I understand that he believes he's right without anything to back it up whatsoever besides his own personal emotions, but it seems like he's just asking for abuse so he can stimulate the pain of being a "persecuted Christian" so he has something to talk about at Small Groups.

I just treat him like the troll he comes off as and ignore him when it gets this bad.

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

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Unread 12-14-2010, 10:48 PM   #1028 (permalink)
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While I'm probably as much a part of it as anyone, we do tend to gang up on people who bring up religion.

Yes I feel I am right, but I don't think much productive comes from all of us gang-raping one guy.
Iíve picked up on that.... Fuck it, Iím going in...

Iím not a ďborn again ChristianĒ or anything. But I find the debate very interesting, and see a lot of legit arguments for a god, specifically Christianity.

I donít think anyoneís belief/non-belief in a god necessarily affects their motivation to study science. Science studies nature and the universe. If there is a god, he created nature and the universe. It would be impossible for nature to contradict god. So... youíre either into science to study godís creation and how things work according to his natural laws (which is kind of the view Isaac Newton had). Or you study a nature and natural laws that came about by nothing (like Einstein? or was he a deist?). Either could be right. The only reason to believe in a god imo would be if youíve had a personal experience that tells you that. I never have. But Iíve heard a lot of people that say they have, including a few on here. Iím not automatically believing them, but neither am I automatically dismissing them. Iím just going to continue to pursue the possibility based on peopleís testimonies, some evidences I see for the bible, and I have a bias to believe that based on how I was raised (which Iím well aware of). However, I think that people that resort to ďgod has a planĒ or ďeverything happens for a reasonĒ arenít necessarily retiring their intellect, they probably just donít have an interest in science. Thereís plenty of atheists that have no idea how natural selection works.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde View Post
Take your pick:

FREE WILL, BRO, FREE WILL.

AS SIMPLE HUMANS WE CAN'T POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND THE MIND OF GOD
Technically, I think religion is actually the one offering the free will. According to science, every one of our decisions and actions is based on our brainís chemical reaction to our surrounding environment.

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Originally Posted by Ironic Mustache View Post
You might have temporal lobe epilepsy.
If there's no god, I completely agree with you.
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Unread 12-14-2010, 10:53 PM   #1029 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by heurisdick View Post
...and see a lot of legit arguments for a god, specifically Christianity.
Go on.

Quote:
Technically, I think religion is actually the one offering the free will.
"Free Will" and "we can't understand mind of god" were quoting religions' base answer to everything when we question god. For example, why would an omniscient god would create us if he knew we were going to rebel? The two options I gave. Always the answer, which of of course, is a non-answer.

Quote:
According to science, every one of our decisions and actions is based on our brain’s chemical reaction to our surrounding environment.
This is only half-true, the chemical reactions in our brain (are you doubting their existence?) obviously give us the mental faculties to make choices (free will). What would your opposing theory be, a soul?

Quote:
However, I think that people that resort to “god has a plan” or “everything happens for a reason” aren’t necessarily retiring their intellect, they probably just don’t have an interest in science.
It's not even directly related to science, it's directly relating to the field of simple questioning. Grandma died, why? Come to terms with reality, or something that I want to believe just because it feels good? Sure, one can always be open to the possibility of a higher power, and most atheists agree to this. It's never a good thing to deal in absolutes. I'm not saying there 100% is no god, because I can't prove it...same way you can't prove there's not an invisible pink elephant in the room. But I certainly have no reason to believe, especially when there are other verifiable explanations to be had.

"It is amazing how many people seemingly cannot tell the difference between ‘X is true’ and ‘It is desirable that people should believe that X is true’. Or maybe they don’t really fall for this logical error, but simply rate truth as unimportant compared with human feelings. I don’t want to decry human feelings. But let’s be clear, in any particular conversation, what we are talking about: feelings, or truth. Both may be important, but they are not the same thing."

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

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Unread 12-15-2010, 12:02 AM   #1030 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde View Post
This is only half-true, the chemical reactions in our brain (are you doubting their existence?) obviously give us the mental faculties to make choices (free will). What would your opposing theory be, a soul? [/size]
No Iím not doubting their existence. But you didnít say how that was only a half truth. And yes, THE opposing theory (not mine. I know thatís kind of a cop out, but it really is still early in my decision making process) would be that a soul is the main contributor to at least our moral decisions.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde View Post
"Free Will" and "we can't understand mind of god" were quoting religions' base answer to everything when we question god. For example, why would an omniscient god would create us if he knew we were going to rebel? The two options I gave. Always the answer, which of of course, is a non-answer.
[/size]
Ahhh, I misunderstood. I think the answer to that would be that he created us for the ones that donít rebel. For the ones that will potentially love him. And the rest just go to hell? Well, thatís why I think if there is a hell, itís probably not a literal ďlake of fireĒ. The bible is completely filled with metaphors, and the burning in hell may be just a metaphor for how shitty it will be to be separated from god. But I totally agree with that video you posted, and I think that for there to be a loving god, one would have to have a definite realization that they are truly rejecting the creator of the universe for them to be responsible for their decision. Otherwise its fucking bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde View Post
Go on. [/size]
I think thereíre some things that give the bible a little more evidence than say ďa flying spaghetti monsterĒ. I canít really speak for other religions, as I havenít really studied any of them. But there seems to be a lot of historical evidence for all the events surrounding the resurrection, and the only thing going against the actual resurrection is its absurdity. But there was a huge boom of christianity in that time period. And people that claimed to be eye witnesses of him resurrected were all of a sudden willing to die for that belief. This wasnít their ancestors myths they were sticking up for. This was something they themselves witnessed.

And as much as people say christians used to be the idiots saying the earth was flat, thereíre verses in the old testament, way before people knew the shape of the earth, that describe it as ďa sphere suspended by nothingĒ. Little things like that. Donít prove anything, but give reason to maybe dig a little deeper.

Who were you quoting at the end, by the way?
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Unread 12-15-2010, 12:31 AM   #1031 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde View Post
I feel like i've tried to be reasonable about religious discussions in this thread (I try not to resort to the likes of 'HAHAHAHA YOU RETARDED FAG RELIGION IS SO DUM"), and I feel like most of us have been pretty respectful and not so much "ganging up" on Dirty Harry just because we're talking to him about his issues and thoughts.

But I don't even know what BDH expects when he posts shit like this on Nubblies:



Seriously, what's the point? I understand that he believes he's right without anything to back it up whatsoever besides his own personal emotions, but it seems like he's just asking for abuse so he can stimulate the pain of being a "persecuted Christian" so he has something to talk about at Small Groups.

I just treat him like the troll he comes off as and ignore him when it gets this bad.
Oh I agree, I think we, for the most part keep things reasonable.

But whenever the numbers are as they are, it is going to lead to the minority going a bit into a defensive shell. I'm not really blaming anybody or proposing or solution, or even saying there is anything to solve.

Overall I think the discussion is intelligent, and I think we can keep it that way.

But yea, that is a whole different flavor of crazy from BDH.
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Unread 12-15-2010, 12:32 AM   #1032 (permalink)
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According to science, every one of our decisions and actions is based on our brain’s chemical reaction to our surrounding environment.
Is a half truth because chemical interactions are (Mr. obvious here) a huge part of life in all beings. It was half falsity because you seemed to insinuate science claims that we do not have free will. I mean, at no part is our free will really free from the influence of the environment, so it obviously plays some role...but not the only one.

The Bible does indeed say that the Earth is "a sphere suspended by nothing", but it also says that it is "held up by pillars." The latter, of course, Christian apologists insist is a metaphor, but not the former. More on that here: Contradictions in the Bible | Project Reason

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Originally Posted by heurisdick View Post
I think there’re some things that give the bible a little more evidence than say “a flying spaghetti monster”. I can’t really speak for other religions, as I haven’t really studied any of them. But there seems to be a lot of historical evidence for all the events surrounding the resurrection, and the only thing going against the actual resurrection is its absurdity.
That's only because most of it was compiled during actual events. I have always viewed the bible as a historical exaggeration. Even the Iliad referenced real things, people and places in history. If you're interested in more regarding the historical significance of the resurrection, I would suggest starting here: Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



That quote is from Richard Dawkins.



Oh, and:

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Originally Posted by heurisdick View Post
Or you study a nature and natural laws that came about by nothing (like Einstein? or was he a deist?).
Letters of Note: The word God is the product of human weakness

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

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Unread 12-15-2010, 12:35 AM   #1033 (permalink)
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Technically, I think religion is actually the one offering the free will. According to science, every one of our decisions and actions is based on our brainís chemical reaction to our surrounding environment.
Disagree, just because our consciousness is based on chemical reactions, doesn't mean the choices we make aren't real. It may mean that we are predispositioned to more than we think, but there is still real free will.

With an omnipotent god, however, he knows everything, meaning that there can only be one outcome, meaning that the decision has already been made and you can't do anything that he hasn't already decided you will do, nor can anything happen in the world that isn't his choice.
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Unread 12-15-2010, 01:19 AM   #1034 (permalink)
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Disagree, just because our consciousness is based on chemical reactions, doesn't mean the choices we make aren't real. It may mean that we are predispositioned to more than we think, but there is still real free will.

With an omnipotent god, however, he knows everything, meaning that there can only be one outcome, meaning that the decision has already been made and you can't do anything that he hasn't already decided you will do, nor can anything happen in the world that isn't his choice.
The point I was making is that from a religious standpoint, there is supposed to be a soul involved. Regardless of whether god knows the outcome, he is not responsible for it. Humans would innately have the ability to recognize the existence of a god, and either reject it or accept it. As you well know, they believe that you deep down know, but are blinding yourself, or whatever.

But I'm pretty sure with the scientific view, there is also only one outcome. Many scientists believe if we were able to factor in every factor, we could actually produce an equation that would calculate what a person will do. Its completely based on your body's make up and your environment. There obviously is no supernatural influences. I guess it comes down to how you'd define free will.

I didn't really mean for this to be the focus of the conversation though.
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Unread 12-15-2010, 01:26 AM   #1035 (permalink)
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The problem is we base our understanding of the world on science, which is based on empiricism. If something were to exist outside the scope of science, not only would we have no way of being able to confirm its existence, it's arguable that it couldn't exist, at least in the way we understand existence. If someone says something exists outside of our ability to confirm or comprehend, then the thing might as well not exist to us at all.

My above statement might be in fact be very arrogant, but it does raise some interesting questions. I've been meaning to make a long post about this for a while now. Really, it all comes down to epistemology: How do we know we know things, and what is our knowledge of the world based on? People who believe in the Bible practice a form of faith and rationalism. It's not as preposterous of a position as it's made out to be. Respected, 19th century Americans, such as Emerson, practiced Transcendentalism, a cousin of rationalism, which is a belief in the ability to transcend the material world to arrive at greater, personal truths. There is empiricism, which is the belief that all knowledge comes from sensory experience. There's more, obviously, and each one has a different level of compatibility with God.

But I go back to my first paragraph: we understand the world through science, which is based on empiricism. And when I say that, let me put it into context: you wouldn't fly in an airplane if the design of the plane was based on rationalism. You wouldn't take life saving medicine at a hospital that was based on transcendentalism. But you'd probably be okay petting a sedated lion, as long as the sedation was based on empirical evidence.
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Unread 12-15-2010, 01:36 AM   #1036 (permalink)
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If someone says something exists outside of our ability to confirm or comprehend, then the thing might as well not exist to us at all.
And without religion, The Christian god wouldn't. Let's not forget that every child is born an atheist.

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" - Voltaire

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

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Unread 12-15-2010, 01:39 AM   #1037 (permalink)
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Let's not forget that every child is born an atheist.
Have there actually been studies/examples showing that?
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Unread 12-15-2010, 01:47 AM   #1038 (permalink)
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Doubt it, it would likely involve something out of Lord of the Flies. But most people who are steadfast believers are indoctrinated from birth, the rest are sucked in later in life. What would a person do if no one was around to tell them about the glories of scripture? See: Voltaire quote.

It's just in human nature. Like what Beebs said: a very human need to find explanations for things that are (seemingly) unexplainable.

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

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Unread 12-15-2010, 01:50 AM   #1039 (permalink)
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Regardless, science is fundamentally limited in that it can only answer how questions, not why, i.e. why am I here? You can only regress so far back until you get to the really big questions. It's in that way that empiricism, and science as an extension of it, is unsatisfying. That is why people turn to religion, and that is why atheists becomes hopeless existentialists - the why is beyond our comprehension. At that point the only thing that can save you is to base the why on personal experience - it's why personal testimonies are such a strong selling point in proselytization. But you can't implement personal experience into mass epistemology because it falls apart.
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Unread 12-15-2010, 01:53 AM   #1040 (permalink)
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And modern scientists on their damn high moral ground won't put a new born alone in a bio-dome and watch what happens.
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Unread 12-15-2010, 02:15 AM   #1041 (permalink)
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I've already been planning on doing this, but it is coincidentally relevant here...

I have no intention of telling my newborn son anything about religion, god, etc. for as long as is possible. My family already knows not to mention it as well, and I'm pretty sure that he won't come into contact with it until he's at least 4 or 5 and going to daycare/preschool/kindergarten and in the presence of other kids and adults. That in mind, I'll be sure to let you know if he comes upon any sort of religious ideas on his own accord by that point in time. I'm doubting that he will, and equally sure that he'll mind his P's and Q's (as much as any young child can) assuming I do my job as a parental influence.


"Religion: A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the Nature of the Unknowable." -Ambrose Bierce

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Unread 12-15-2010, 02:41 AM   #1042 (permalink)
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What about just giving him a "people might try to tell you about religion speech" so he doesn't come a Hare Krishna one day?
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Unread 12-15-2010, 02:52 AM   #1043 (permalink)
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I'm surely going to do that, but probably when he's older than the 4 and 5 year old range. I might have a dumbed down version of the discussion at that point, but I figure it would probably be best if he's a bit older and can grasp what I'm telling him better.

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Unread 12-15-2010, 03:28 AM   #1044 (permalink)
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Have you considered putting him into a biodome and watching what happens?

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Unread 12-15-2010, 10:48 AM   #1045 (permalink)
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Have you considered putting him into a biodome and watching what happens?
Whenever I see the word 'biodome' I think of Pauly Shore.....so no, I will not be doing that.

"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand." |vonnegut
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Unread 12-15-2010, 11:20 AM   #1046 (permalink)
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Does thinking about Stephen Baldwin instead help at all?
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Unread 12-15-2010, 01:05 PM   #1047 (permalink)
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Have there actually been studies/examples showing that?
No studies to my knowledge because we're still trying to figure out what all (if anything) babies know when they're born. They say there are innate fears such as loud noises and falling, but that could be an acquired genetic thing based on years of our ancestors getting hurt related to those things. The flinching involved could be more of a reflex than actual knowledge.

Without science, it's basically the argument of innatism and depends on which philosopher you choose to believe. Descarte (and I believe Plato) believed we're born with innate knowledge of God, from God. John Locke is more along the lines of the "blank slate" philosophy, where we're basically dumb as shit when we're born and learn everything through experience.

Neither theory promotes a disbelief in god, but I suppose you'd first have to have knowledge of something in order to not believe it.

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Unread 12-15-2010, 06:35 PM   #1048 (permalink)
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True, pure, unfiltered happiness has come from beginning to know my Creator and my heavenly father. There has been no earthly experience that has ever brought the pure joy that knowing Christ has. There has been moments when the Holy Spirit has been so overwhelming that I can't even use words powerful enoughto explain those moments. Moments where there is no explanation, no questions, and no doubt about truth. If this makes me crazy in your eyes I have zero control over that, but it's moments like this that leave little wiggle room to question my belief in God.
I used to get like this when Julie would toss my salad while blowing me.

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Unread 12-15-2010, 08:14 PM   #1049 (permalink)
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True, pure, unfiltered happiness has come from beginning to know my Creator and my heavenly father. There has been no earthly experience that has ever brought the pure joy that knowing Christ has. There has been moments when the Holy Spirit has been so overwhelming that I can't even use words powerful enoughto explain those moments. Moments where there is no explanation, no questions, and no doubt about truth. If this makes me crazy in your eyes I have zero control over that, but it's moments like this that leave little wiggle room to question my belief in God.
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I used to get like this when Julie would toss my salad while blowing me.
There you have it. True, pure, unfiltered happiness from separate, completely unrelated sources. A girl who can put her tongue in your butthole while simultaneously throating your beef is a bit of a stretch, but it's times like these that faith matters the most. No explanation for why it's happening, no questions, and no doubt about truth.

Creeping around as I please nonchalantly like any other Supreme Emperor might.
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Unread 12-16-2010, 04:34 PM   #1050 (permalink)
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A girl who can put her tongue in your butthole while simultaneously throating your beef is a bit of a stretch, but it's times like these that faith matters the most.
More believable than virgin birth.

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