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Unread 11-30-2012, 09:41 AM   #1326 (permalink)
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You just need to add one more set of colons at each end of the string.
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Unread 11-30-2012, 11:31 AM   #1327 (permalink)
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Someone teach me how to make the bloody foot thingy.
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You often seem to think that the lowest-hanging-fruit makes you some sort of comedy genius. You're just not a good person. You're spiteful, constantly negative, and bring others down to make yourself feel better. I just don't have room for that.
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Unread 12-01-2012, 11:21 AM   #1328 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination View Post
We're not even talking about religion...We're talking about something that has religious implications.

"Precisely because science deals with only what can be known, direct or indirectly, by sense experience, it cannot answer the question of whether there is anything for example, consciousness, morality, beauty or God that is not entirely knowable by sense experience. To show that there is nothing beyond sense experience, we would need philosophical arguments, not scientific experiments."

Does anyone disagree with this? If not then I don't even have anything to argue.
I think you're creating a false separation of philosophy and science; philosophy is essentially the study of thought. There is no real reason to separate "logic" from "sense experience", nor is there a need to use some sort consideration of the supernatural to understand any of the things you mention that are outside of "sense experience."
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Unread 12-01-2012, 11:27 AM   #1329 (permalink)
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For example, the devout atheist is his own savior.
That's just an empty statement, first of all what constitutes "devout"? You can't really be devout about not believing in something, especially something supernatural. Also, what is a "savior" and what makes you think everybody has one?
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Unread 12-01-2012, 11:31 AM   #1330 (permalink)
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Also, the whole "oh Atheism is their religion" type of stuff is just silly.
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Unread 12-01-2012, 02:45 PM   #1331 (permalink)
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I don't believe in god, but there is a stark difference between my conviction (or lack thereof) and Blonde's. Blonde is a more devout or staunch (or any other synonym) atheist than I am.

I say that atheists are their own savior because they are. They have saved themselves from the shackles and ignorance of religion.
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Unread 12-01-2012, 03:27 PM   #1332 (permalink)
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DH, your lack of religion likely stems from apathy about the god question. The rest of us actually care about whether or not what we believe is true. Simply because you care less about the god question doesn't mean that I'm somehow an extremist. In that light, everybody could subjectively call someone who is intensely interested in any subject more than themselves an "extremist."

The atheist experience, in my experience, comes decreasing waves of intensity depending on how much you care about truth (which you seem not to as much as myself or Repug), how indoctrinated you were as a child, and numerous other factors. It's frustrating to see the rather idiotic claims from those on this board calling atheism "what my personality is based off of" when it's extremely clear that I'm not nearly as "militant" as I used to be. Basically, no matter what "class" of atheism I am, you are always going to say I'm an extremist, because my stage of militant atheism has frozen in your mind and you are not being open-minded enough to see that I've actually become much more mild. Perhaps you should reflect on these words a bit.

Fun fact: The full length of the Spanish Inquisition was a longer time period than the United States has been a country.

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

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Unread 12-01-2012, 05:13 PM   #1333 (permalink)
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You're not exactly far off in what you've said. Religion is basically a passion for something that also involves worship. While perhaps there is no worship with athiesm, there is certainly passion. One might even say, again, on a much smaller scale, an atheist worships themselves for being right, smarter, or more sophisticated than their religious unequals.

I care very much about the god question. The metaphysical is fascinating to me. The are two main differences between you and me. The first is that I want there to be a god and I want to believe, but you seem to want not to believe. It's like you don't want there to be a god. We are similar in that faith alone is not enough to sway us. At least not right now. So whereas neither of us have faith, I at least have hope.

The second difference is merely that I'm not a Gaylord.
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Unread 12-01-2012, 06:33 PM   #1334 (permalink)
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This is boring. Tits pls

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Unread 12-01-2012, 06:51 PM   #1335 (permalink)
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Unread 12-01-2012, 06:55 PM   #1336 (permalink)
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You're not exactly far off in what you've said. Religion is basically a passion for something that also involves worship. While perhaps there is no worship with athiesm, there is certainly passion. One might even say, again, on a much smaller scale, an atheist worships themselves for being right, smarter, or more sophisticated than their religious unequals.

I care very much about the god question. The metaphysical is fascinating to me. The are two main differences between you and me. The first is that I want there to be a god and I want to believe, but you seem to want not to believe. It's like you don't want there to be a god. We are similar in that faith alone is not enough to sway us. At least not right now. So whereas neither of us have faith, I at least have hope.

The second difference is merely that I'm not a Gaylord.
Atheism is just the lack of a belief in god, anything else isn't inherently part of it.

Personally I am incredibly glad there is no God controlling things, because what the ever loving fuck is an all powerful being doing during the holocaust? So I don't see why "hope" in god is some sort of positive thing. If there was a god, he would be the most negative, evil force in the universe.
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Unread 12-01-2012, 07:00 PM   #1337 (permalink)
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I have hope for something other than nothingness after death.

Definitely not the Christian god.
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Unread 12-01-2012, 11:35 PM   #1338 (permalink)
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I care very much about the god question. The metaphysical is fascinating to me. The are two main differences between you and me. The first is that I want there to be a god and I want to believe, but you seem to want not to believe. It's like you don't want there to be a god. We are similar in that faith alone is not enough to sway us. At least not right now. So whereas neither of us have faith, I at least have hope.
I echo Beebs here. None of the gods available are worth worship. Even if the Christian god appeared to everybody, and showed he was real, he/it still wouldn't be worth my worship, and I'd still rather rebel and never kneel to anybody, ever. If you are the kneeling to a superior power type, when said deity (at least yet) hasn't proved they are worthy of worship to us, then feel free longing to bend the knee to such a power. I am just not that kind of person, and don't think anybody else should be either. Somebody demanding you kneel to them, throughout history, has general led to terrible atrocities. Gods are no different, as a casual stroll through any religious book will make apparent.

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I have hope for something other than nothingness after death.

Definitely not the Christian god.
Who doesn't? You think atheists are happy with just dying after 60-100 years? Just because we wish and hope something would happen, doesn't make it more likely to happen, or lend validation to such a very human (and understandable) hope/wish. Perhaps that is the real difference between us. For a long while, I did wish there was a god, until I was introduced to the idea that having somebody controlling my every move and putting people through so much suffering in life would make such a god, on this planet, a terrible thing, not worth worship.

So again, I ask you to think about certain things here. You want there to be a god, and you want to believe, what implications would that make for this god? Even if it wasn't the Christian god, or any kind of god that we have any knowledge of, what kind of deity would it have to be to put people through so much suffering, for tens and hundreds of thousands of years, disease, rape, starvation, dying of thirst, natural disasters, etc?

With human existence being how it exists in reality, a god worth worship seems almost impossible. Even if he showed up, how would you justify worshiping one who clearly does such a terrible job? Don't you think about these things?


Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

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Unread 12-02-2012, 12:35 AM   #1339 (permalink)
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If there is a god or superior being, I don't suppose to understand its rationale for this world. I cannot explain why nature is such a brutal horror show or why civilized humans still face indescribable pain and suffering. There are so many questions that I can speculate about and come up with wild fantasies, but I cannot give any real answers. Actually, coming up with these fantasies is one of my favorite things to think about, but I doubt any of them are entirely original thoughts.

However, assuming there is a god, suffering in this life, no matter how severe, is really of no concern if we are treated to everlasting paradise after death. I don't know why this life is full of so much violence and suffering, but I suppose that if there is a god, his scope on this world is beyond anything I will ever have, and I simply cannot see the whole picture.

This is starting to get a little too much like I'm preaching about god though. I have other fantasies that don't involve any gods as well.

I just have a hard time placing any meaning or value on this life if there is no point to it, if there is no reason for it.
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Unread 12-02-2012, 01:22 AM   #1340 (permalink)
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Why would you assume a creator or deity would have some "grand plan" for humans and be so terrible at understanding humanity and it's problems/sufferings?

Why would your worship something when you can do the job so much better, which I'm sure any kind-hearted all powerful person could?

Why in the world would putting an entire species through unimaginable suffering justify eternal paradise afterwards? Why not just go straight to paradise?

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I just have a hard time placing any meaning or value on this life if there is no point to it, if there is no reason for it.
Once again, completely normal and understandable. Fundamentally, this is why most people believe in religion, hands-down. There are numerous philosophies that attempt to deal with this to the best of our ability (see below). But if your only reason to live is heaven, I think that is a very empty way to live your life.

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

I don't want to seem like I'm preaching either. I just feel like I'm seeing you get about 90% of the way through a very logical process and just not following through on the last 10%. And that's why the emotional aspect of religion is so difficult to overcome.

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

― Terence McKenna

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Unread 12-02-2012, 12:56 PM   #1341 (permalink)
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I've found in my life that I appreciate warm weather so much more in the spring after a cold, hard winter. By the dog days of summer, you take the heat for granted and some even complain about it. Maybe to fully appreciate paradise for eternity, you have to experience pain temporarily.
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Unread 12-02-2012, 06:48 PM   #1342 (permalink)
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Sure, maybe. But ultimately you're grasping at straws and hoping for some vindication of shitty life on Earth by a paradise afterwards, which I have already stated is the main reason people come around to religion. It comes down to you choosing to believe or hope in something simply because you want to believe/hope in that thing, rather than having any good reason to believe it is actually so.

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I care very much about the god question. The metaphysical is fascinating to me.
Emotionally, I have no doubt that you do. Intellectually, I don't think this statement stands. If it did, you would be endlessly seeking data, evidence, and literature on the matter. This does not seem to be the case, which is, as I said, the real difference between you and people like myself and Repug (who, while he is going a different direction, I still very much respect his desire and drive to find his own personal truth by digesting many books and other perspectives).

What I see to be the "problem" with this kind of professed (but not actual, in my opinion) atheism is that people who hold to the kind of perspective you have shown here end up very much becoming religious later in life. Whether after having children, a traumatic health event, or a family death, many people who still have hope for a deity end up becoming cemented to one at some point in their lives, through emotional processes, which is very unlikely to happen if you have firm, intellectual, and rational reasons for not believing in a deity. In my experience, people who don't come to atheism in this way are much more emotionally vulnerable to the traps of religion.


I'm not trying to change your mind or tell you you're wrong. I just think that, as you get older and more family-oriented, and closer to death, if you aren't firm on your opinion of something, and convinced that it's the right opinion for very good reasons, it may be very easy for others to take advantage of you in the future. Con artists do this all the time.

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

― Terence McKenna

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Unread 12-02-2012, 08:22 PM   #1343 (permalink)
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I face my own mortality every day. So yes, there is an emotional need for me to find meaning to this life and hope for something after death. While this does lead to my fascination with the meta, I also try to keep a logical mind about myself and search for scientific reasoning that can shed light on death.

Obviously one of the best ways to find evidence of what comes after death is to resuscitate someone who has been dead for awhile. We have a long way to go, but recently scientists were able to bring a dog back to life that had been dead for about three hours, which is pretty cool.

Blood Swapping Reanimates Dead Dogs | Fox News

I respect science and what it can do for humans in many ways. I also believe that science can prove existence after death without the need for god. Things like the eleven dimensions of string theory and the theory of infinite parallel universes have plenty of potential to allow for this.

Last edited by Johnny Richter; 12-02-2012 at 08:29 PM. Reason: it was 3 hours not 15 minutes my bad
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Unread 12-02-2012, 09:03 PM   #1344 (permalink)
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Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

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Unread 12-03-2012, 03:10 AM   #1345 (permalink)
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I face my own mortality every day.
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Unread 12-07-2012, 02:12 AM   #1346 (permalink)
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The caller in this episode is particularly dumb, but Matt drops the hammer in a real nice eloquent way about halfway through. Towards the end they go into the ego practice of admitting you're dumb or not. It's a great video, just watch it.

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

― Terence McKenna
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Unread 12-08-2012, 05:52 PM   #1347 (permalink)
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Recent experience in almost unwanted introspection (the best kind, i suppose) has made me really not want to pursue the very ego-driven practice of arguing/debating politics or religion, unless it is a belief that is causing overt harm to other people. Or I happen to be drunk. Otherwise, it's just not worth it, and I understand that many people simply need to believe in something like religion because the prospects of both a meaningless existence, and a final death are actually very terrifying.

That being said, I will always have a place in my heart for the logic contained in these little guilty pleasures.


Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

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Unread 12-10-2012, 10:20 AM   #1348 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde View Post
Recent experience in almost unwanted introspection (the best kind, i suppose) has made me really not want to pursue the very ego-driven practice of arguing/debating politics or religion
I consider this a personal W

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Waiting until kremlin moves to Phucket in a few years.
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Unread 12-10-2012, 12:15 PM   #1349 (permalink)
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what is a personal w

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

― Terence McKenna
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Unread 12-10-2012, 01:06 PM   #1350 (permalink)
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I believe that the term "a personal w" is douchebag for "a personal win".
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