Who is going to hell? An argument for the Bible, Religion and God.

[Fruitacious B]

Shit like this man...shit like this.

[Ironic Mustache]

Oooooooh. I always wondered about that.

[Mr. Blonde]

I don't understand how they can get around saying "similar animals" and still deny evolution.

[Saint DH]

I'm sort of going through some changes in my mental state when it comes to this topic (of the existence of God, not so much creation vs evolution, I wholeheartedly believe in evolution. I just think creationism makes an infinitely complex God seem quite simple). Over the past 10 years or so, I have not given a fuck about God. If he was there, I told him defiantly to fuck himself. If he wasn't there, I didn't care. In the last 4 or so years I have completely denied his existence altogether. If he was there, I renounced him. I would rather go to hell than worship some invisible God who already was nonexistence in my life.

In the last two or so years I have experienced some significant losses in my life. The first only drove me further away from God. I've always had a lot of hate inside of me, but it seemed to increase. Recently I experienced a loss that stung quite a bit deeper than the previous (a kind of snowball effect, if you will). At first I was so angry, I damn near lost my mind. A few nights ago I was in a lot of pain over it. There was nothing to comfort me. I reached out to something else that I couldn't see. Believe it or not, when I reached out to whatever it was, I felt comforted almost immediately. Perhaps this was a psychological phenomenon, but let me tell you, there was nothing inside me that provided any comfort for a long, long time. I don't know what this means.

I'm not saying that I believe this is a God, only that I am far more open to the idea of a benevolent power who works in some very fucked up ways (seemingly to us, because we cannot comprehend). I can tell you this, I am going to start looking for God, and I'm going to see if I can find him. All I know is that I feel better, happier, than I have in a long time. And even though I'm greatly sadden by my loss, the thought of possibly being able to see them again is far more tolerable than the thought of permanent death. I feel like I can be a better, stronger person. I feel like I don't need to cling to my hate, I can let it go. There are many things I'm trying to sort out in my mind. And while I do not believe in the Christian "biblical" God, I do not reject the possibility of a higher power pulling the strings of this world in ways which we cannot comprehend.

[Beebs]

I think what you felt was the very real human need to find understanding. When events are unexplainable, in your case because of the pain, something, anything that provides some peace of mind is going fill the need for understanding with "whatever it was" and make you "feel comfort almost immediately." I think that is how religions form.

People go through that process enough times, notice that other people do aw well, and then they start coming up with ideas as to what the "something" was, and turn it into a god or religion.

So to paraphrase a NOFX song; even though their beliefs in what that something is, their happiness from it is very real.

[Fruitacious B]

I've definitely found comfort in calling out to whatever powers that be (the Universe, God, the force, etc.), whatever it is that is bigger than me that I don't understand. It's either prayer or meditation, however you want to look at it. But tossing out some feeling to forces unknown is sometimes one of the few things to keep me humbled. I mean seriously, stare at the stars for a few minutes, it's very humbling. It's good to feel small in the face of whatever it is that makes this all happen, God or not.

Good luck in your search, perhaps you'll find something worthwhile.

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

I'm sort of going through some changes in my mental state when it comes to this topic (of the existence of God, not so much creation vs evolution, I wholeheartedly believe in evolution. I just think creationism makes an infinitely complex God seem quite simple). Over the past 10 years or so, I have not given a fuck about God. If he was there, I told him defiantly to fuck himself. If he wasn't there, I didn't care. In the last 4 or so years I have completely denied his existence altogether. If he was there, I renounced him. I would rather go to hell than worship some invisible God who already was nonexistence in my life.

In the last two or so years I have experienced some significant losses in my life. The first only drove me further away from God. I've always had a lot of hate inside of me, but it seemed to increase. Recently I experienced a loss that stung quite a bit deeper than the previous (a kind of snowball effect, if you will). At first I was so angry, I damn near lost my mind. A few nights ago I was in a lot of pain over it. There was nothing to comfort me. I reached out to something else that I couldn't see. Believe it or not, when I reached out to whatever it was, I felt comforted almost immediately. Perhaps this was a psychological phenomenon, but let me tell you, there was nothing inside me that provided any comfort for a long, long time. I don't know what this means.

I'm not saying that I believe this is a God, only that I am far more open to the idea of a benevolent power who works in some very fucked up ways (seemingly to us, because we cannot comprehend). I can tell you this, I am going to start looking for God, and I'm going to see if I can find him. All I know is that I feel better, happier, than I have in a long time. And even though I'm greatly sadden by my loss, the thought of possibly being able to see them again is far more tolerable than the thought of permanent death. I feel like I can be a better, stronger person. I feel like I don't need to cling to my hate, I can let it go. There are many things I'm trying to sort out in my mind. And while I do not believe in the Christian "biblical" God, I do not reject the possibility of a higher power pulling the strings of this world in ways which we cannot comprehend.

Oh God. Not you now.

[Ironic Mustache]

At the risk of being insensitive, "finding God" because of a recent death is a cop out. People tend to reflect on their mortality when they're in close contact with a death, so they try to justify it. When bad people die they use the "just world" logic, where bad things happen to bad people, and when good people die, they say things like, "they've gone to a better place."

They essentially are serving the same purpose, which is attempting to make sense out of a world that is chaotic and at times, incomprehensible. Slapping a God band-aid on it really isn't the healthiest way to cope because once you're a little more emotionallu removed from this situation, you're going to be thinking differently. Rather than attempting to find meaning through God, you just need to grieve appropriately until you feel a little better. When your head clears if you still want to seek out some answers, you'll be in a much more objective state of mind.

[Saint DH]

I agree with you on the fact that I'm probably quite emotionally involved in the present situation. Perhaps you're right in that I'll feel differently once I have a more objective view of the situation, but my point was that I haven't really been happy in quite some time. Walking in the path of faithlessness has not lead me to a good place. It's lead me to a place of hate, self-loathing, and unhappiness. Perhaps it is not a lack of faith or God, but merely character flaws or mental illness on my own part that has lead me here. Although it may lead to nothing, I'm going to keep looking for something. I want to be a better person, and if God and religion can help get me there, then so be it. I did feel something that night, whatever it was, and I have not felt much of anything for some time now.

[Fruitacious B]

If that god ends up being the Christian god, I retract my last statement, no offense. Being open to spirituality and taking the most available option are two entirely different things.


"Someone once asked the Buddha, 'How do we escape the Summer's heat?' to which the Buddha replied, 'Jump into a burning furnace.'"

[Orgazmo]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

Walking in the path of faithlessness has not lead me to a good place.

You touched on it already...but, if you don't want to be in a bad place, make your life not lead you to a bad place. There have been plenty of Christians who have ended up in a shitty place and plenty of Atheists who have ended up in a great place.

Feel free to use religion as an excuse to get your ass in gear and change things in your life...but I do hope you realize that, if you do end up changing, it's you who are changing shit, not God.

[Ironic Mustache]

Originally Posted by Orgazmo

but I do hope you realize that, if you do end up changing, it's you who are changing shit, not God.

See "god band-aid" reference.

You're undoubtedly going to feel better in the coming months simply because you're at an extreme low right now. You shouldn't automatically attribute that to a higher authority. That's just one fantastic reason you should wait until your emotional levels are at baseline again before trying to answer emotionally and philosophically deep questions.

[Mr. Blonde]

I know that you're in a bad place right now, but I plea to not give in and subject yourself to any form of organized religion, if you're thinking about it. They really do prey on those in need of emotional and moral support, and it's how members like BDH got sucked in. I can understand why many people use churches and the like as social groups, but at the added cost of unquestioning obedience to a myth, it's really not worth it. It really kills me to see people being lied to and lying to themselves to cope, when there are real explanations and ample non-faith-based help solutions out there. I think that if you cope with your personal tragedies as a skeptic and a realist, you will be far better off in the long run than one who pursues wishful thinking.

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

...but my point was that I haven't really been happy in quite some time. Walking in the path of faithlessness has not lead me to a good place. It's lead me to a place of hate, self-loathing, and unhappiness.

I think that everybody goes through these kinds of things in their lives at different times. I think that some kind of change is definitely in order, but I don't think that religion and the necessary suspension of rationality and reason is the best way to pursue it. I know you're still in school, and I don't know how much of it you have left, but I would highly consider trying to get out of Indiana when you graduate and go looking for new jobs. Not Chicago, either; get out of the midwest altogether. Move somewhere warm, make some new friends, start over. You have all of this and more to look forward to in life, and I can personally attest (as can probably many others on this board, and infinitely more in IRL) that leaving Indiana was one of the best decisions I ever made.

Perhaps it is not a lack of faith or God, but merely character flaws or mental illness on my own part that has lead me here. Although it may lead to nothing, I'm going to keep looking for something.

I wouldn't blame yourself too much. A lot of this is just circumstantial, although, not to be cliche, attitude really does help, even though that's almost a form of self-brainwashing. If you've been unhappy for a long time, depression might be the cause, and it would be worth checking out.

Might I suggest looking further into the realm of science? Specifically, the mechanisms behind astronomy and biology -- more than a layman's education. Might sound kinda weird, but we humans do have a natural tendency to want to believe in things that are bigger and "higher" than ourselves --- and luckily, these things exist, and they're in the forces of nature. I have definitely given over my sense of wonder to the cosmos and the complexities of natural life rather than the metaphysical, and feel much more wonder than I ever did when I was a churchgoer. Frequently indulging myself in these has also humbled me quite a bit in terms of understand how small and pointless all of our lives are -- in a good way.

Originally Posted by Mark Twain

I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.

The more I study and learn about the intricacies of nature (not just staring at the stars or a tree, but understanding the billions of years of processes that made them the way they are), the more I appreciate existing, even when things in my life are rather shitty.

Turn out the lights and full screen this shit.

YouTube - The Known Universe by AMNH

YouTube - The Known Universe by AMNH

[Ironic Mustache]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

I know that you're in a bad place right now, but I plea to not give in and subject yourself to any form of organized religion, if you're thinking about it. They really do prey on those in need of emotional and moral support, and it's how members like BDH got sucked in. . . It really kills me to see people being lied to and lying to themselves to cope, when there are real explanations and ample non-faith-based help solutions out there. I think that if you cope with your personal tragedies as a skeptic and a realist, you will be far better off in the long run than one who pursues wishful thinking. . . . Move somewhere warm, make some new friends, start over. You have all of this and more to look forward to in life, and I can personally attest (as can probably many others on this board, and infinitely more in IRL) that leaving Indiana was one of the best decisions I ever made. I wouldn't blame yourself too much. A lot of this is just circumstantial, although, not to be cliche, attitude really does help, even though that's almost a form of self-brainwashing [which I'm totally not doing]. If you've been unhappy for a long time, depression might be the cause, and it would be worth checking out saaaaaaay here for instance.

Might I suggest looking further into the realm of . . . [sientology]? Specifically, the mechanisms behind astronomy and biology -- more than a layman's education. Might sound kinda weird, but we humans do have a natural tendency to want to believe in things that are bigger and "higher" than ourselves --- and luckily, these things exist, and they're in the forces of . . . [xenu]. I have definitely given over my sense of wonder to the cosmos and the complexities of natural life rather than the metaphysical, and feel much more wonder than I ever did when I was a churchgoer. Frequently indulging myself in these has also humbled me quite a bit in terms of understand how small and pointless all of our lives are -- in a good way.

The more I study and learn about the intricacies of nature (not just staring at the stars or a tree, but understanding the billions of years of processes that [Xenu] made the way they are), the more I appreciate existing, even when things in my life are rather shitty.

Turn out the lights and full screen this shit.

Tom Cruise pwns science AND religion

Fixed.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

What did you change? both posts are above the allotted # of words I allow myself to read at one time.

[Ironic Mustache]

I changed a few key phrases so that blode was shoving scientology down people's throats instead of atheism.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Atheism offers nothing. Either you can accept that or you can't.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by Ironic Mustache

I changed a few key phrases so that blonde was shoving scientology down people's throats instead of atheism to shamelessly try and get posrep by needlessly exaggerating something that isn't at all a proper comparison.

Shoving down his throat, really? That's what you call an attempt at helpful, non-religious suggestions to another Nubblite? C'mon, Ironic, let's keep the discussion on point like grown-ups.

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Atheism offers nothing. Either you can accept that or you can't.

Atheism generally offers a world free of dogmatic guilt and doctrine, as well as a great deal of intellectual freedom.

[Ironic Mustache]

Pump the breaks blonde. No need to get all sensitive, it was after all a joke. When did you get so serious about everything?

[heurisdick]

I think some people are dismissing his experience a little too quickly based on the fact that they have all the answers. I think he's smart enough to be somewhat objective in spite of what he's going through. The God debate is by no means resolved. Jumping into a religion out of fear is obviously stupid. But blindly dismissing it is just as bad. I'm not saying anyone here is blindly dismissing it, but I don't think you should tell anyone to just trust your judgment on possibly the most important decision they are ever going to make. Exploring and deciding for oneself is a very healthy process. I'm more interested in hearing about what the experience that made a staunch atheist start reconsidering his views was all about.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Agreed. Care to share, Dirty harry?

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

I agree with you on the fact that I'm probably quite emotionally involved in the present situation. Perhaps you're right in that I'll feel differently once I have a more objective view of the situation, but my point was that I haven't really been happy in quite some time. Walking in the path of faithlessness has not lead me to a good place. It's lead me to a place of hate, self-loathing, and unhappiness. Perhaps it is not a lack of faith or God, but merely character flaws or mental illness on my own part that has lead me here. Although it may lead to nothing, I'm going to keep looking for something. I want to be a better person, and if God and religion can help get me there, then so be it. I did feel something that night, whatever it was, and I have not felt much of anything for some time now.

By your method of taking a characteristic from your life and saying "well this happened when I was doing X, maybe I should do the opposite of X to see a change." You could just as easily say "wearing clothes, having 10 fingers, watching my favorite tv shows, etc." But I doubt you are going to become a nudist, chop of a finger, or start watching Two and a Half Men" and expect a change in the world.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by Ironic Mustache

I changed a few key phrases so that blode was shoving scientology down people's throats instead of atheism.

He was more offering ways of looking into the world not based on fairy tales; he wasn't pushing the non belief of god, rather he was pushing looking for answers in a field where the questions can actually be found and where things are connected to reality.

[Ironic Mustache]

Jesus H. Christ. I agree with blonde, I was just making a dumb joke because he loves arguing the merits of atheism. In the future I promise to form more concise, well-rounded views and get my sources in line before making my dumb jokes.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by Ironic Mustache

Jesus H. Christ. I agree with blonde, I was just making a dumb joke because he loves arguing the merits of atheism. In the future I promise to form more concise, well-rounded views and get my sources in line before making my dumb jokes.

Damn, I did not mean to be shitty with my comment, was just kind of using your post as a sort of proxy for the backlash that seems to follow in other places when an atheist makes a post like Blonde's.