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Unread 11-18-2014, 12:09 PM   #1501 (permalink)
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Get rich or die tryin
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Unread 12-13-2014, 01:38 PM   #1502 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde View Post
No, but I would like to expand on this

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Originally Posted by Dent View Post
The only part of the world we have direct access to is the contents of our mind, the rest is inferential.
at the appropriate time. Mainly about our relationship with our environment -- also, we will obviously have to get to the qualities of "mind", at some point.
Continue, dear sir!
Do you find any sense in this blondie? indirect/inferential realism

“NUBBLIES.NET USER DENT, I think Galen Strawson is simply mistaken here. One no more has direct access to mind-independent objects when one is awake than when one is dreaming. The difference is that when one is awake one can infer that the objects in one's world-simulation causally co-vary with gross fitness relevant patterns in the mind-independent world.”



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I'm not sure if that answer helps or not, but the idea is basically that if something by definition exists I don't have to experience it to know it's true.
Can you define square circles into existence?
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Unread 12-16-2014, 09:47 AM   #1503 (permalink)
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If you can dream it, you can do it!
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Unread 01-13-2015, 04:43 PM   #1504 (permalink)
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Whether or not you agree with him, I think C.S. Lewis is one of the great thinkers of the 20th century, and certainly of Christian apologetics. It's been very intellectually stimulating for me recently to read his work with a fresh perspective and a more open mind; the contrast, but also the alignment with some of the eastern spice that's been floating around here provides a good springboard to dive into his ideas.

I recently came across these cool animated excerpts taken from his famous works that I thought I'd share with you guys. If anyone wants to engage with me on them, I have a few requests:

1. Let's try to stay on topics only within and relevant to the video I post. The conversation will hopefully remain disciplined and not branch out so quickly that it is impossible to keep track of all the concepts that would inevitably spill out.

2. Let's not bring pre-conceived notions of what God is, what Christianity is, or any other faith or spirituality into the conversation. I want to only focus on the exact concepts C.S. Lewis is talking about. I believe the only way to tackle such a topic is to do it piece by piece, one idea at a time, otherwise it becomes unmanageable.

3. Only serious, thoughtful posts, please. One liners or ignoring the parameters I've set will be ignored.

4. I am not a practicing Christian, nor do I have any immediate plans to convert to one. I simply enjoy exploring philosophical and theological ideas that are largely abstract. I've also been reading a lot about Taoism and Shintoism recently, as well as Sikhism. I mention this only because I know that since we all are Westerners there is a stronger emotional reaction to Christianity than other religions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXlBCZ_5OYw


My takeaway from this video and the key concepts:

1. God existing outside of space and time. This is such an important idea for me, and one I came to on my own that has really influenced the way I think about not only God, but knowledge in general. I've said it before already but it bears repeating because it's so foundational: If God exists he must have existed outside of his creation (space and time), therefore, if science is the study of the universe (space and time) it is ill-equiped to discover God.

2. You can "find" God in the universe much like you can "find" Shakespeare in his plays. Not in a literal sense -- but you can get an idea of him through the quality of his work.

3. Finding God, or being found by God, is dependent on the individual. This will likely lead to the charge of subjectivity, but I find the emphasis on perspective and attunement to be legitimate. Have we all not at one point in our lives been closed off to something that later, under different circumstances, we retroactively realized to be correct?

That's all for now.
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Unread 05-16-2015, 12:36 PM   #1505 (permalink)
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Unread 11-23-2016, 03:58 PM   #1506 (permalink)
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Certainly numbers do not have a tangible existence in the world. They exist in our collective consciousness. And yet they are not arbitrary products of our imaginations in the way that fictional characters are."
Didn't come to respond to this but yeah they are bro


came across the word cittas whilst spicing around Blonde? someones tying it in with Strawsons view on individualism and the lack of enduring metaphysical ego
THE SELF by Galen Strawson

"I noticed something reading the ancient Abhidhamma – texts of Buddhism, the Abhidhamma – texts being a extremely detailed and systematic philosophical exposition of the mind and the world (The mind and world according to Buddhist cosmology, of course). There is an analysis of the stream of consciousness being constituted by a series of “Citta”’s, which is the Pali – word for “mind” or “mind-moments”…but the interesting thing I noticed is the extremely short life-span which the authors of Abhidhamma is giving to these “mind-moments”: “ The life-span of a citta is termed, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkhana). This is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according to the commentators, in the time that it takes for lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of mind-moments can elapse.” Is not this ancient idea about such an extremely short duration of mind-moments interesting to think about in the context of the possibility of sub-femtosecond quantum coherence in the CNS as a solution to the combination problem?...... ….But it is strange that these ancient texts are operating with such small durations of mind-moments or selves…those durations are not of course something obvious through ordinary introspective investigation… The Pearl-string Self of Galen Strawson is quite in line with the Abhidhamma view of the Self, but he is of course operating with much larger durations…"


Last edited by Dent; 11-23-2016 at 04:27 PM.
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Unread 11-24-2016, 03:54 PM   #1507 (permalink)
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Hilarious to see scientists baffle themselves to understand consciousness while the answer is a mere 300 micrograms away.

Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing.

― Terence McKenna
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Unread 12-13-2020, 09:02 AM   #1508 (permalink)
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BBC News - The science of addiction: Do you always like the things you want?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-55221825

Wanting/liking distinction is a Biggie!


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This is the (a?) ontological argument right? a priori attempt at proving God's existence?

---


Empirical evidence for the distinction of desire and pleasure


Dissociation (neuropsychology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)







I don’t think these are true, meditative and motivated bliss are equally enjoyable as far as I know but meditative bliss which I see (AND COULD STILL BE GETTING THE WRONG END OF THE STICK) as all pleasure ‘liking’ without desire ‘wanting’ isn’t going to work in the world of fitness and selection pressure. Without thought for the future what would be the motivation to prevent future suffering?



I still don’t understand how Buddhists wouldn’t want to be a desireless wireheader if desire is suffering (it’s not)

“May all that hath life be delivered from suffering"
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Unread 12-13-2020, 09:06 AM   #1509 (permalink)
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Wokies will get nowhere without understanding selfish genes, sexual selection and so forth... Well meaning donkies are just donkies (repug)

"wanting a thing, & liking it, corresponded to distinct systems in the brain … wanting is more fundamental than liking … it doesn't matter for the preservation of our genes [if] we like sex, or like food. Far more important is [if] we … seek [them] out"
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Unread 02-06-2021, 09:59 AM   #1510 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dent View Post
Zero Ontology
Zero looks attractive
Hi it's almost 7 years since I posted this and I still think it's the best explanation space to explain reality and the answer to why there is something rather than nothing (there is nothing)

Here is the proper link to why anything exists you're welcome oh and David Pearce is still ultra fucking smart

https://www.hedweb.com/nihilfil.htm
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Unread 02-06-2021, 10:02 AM   #1511 (permalink)
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Yes the website looks like it was written in the 90's because it was.

One timeless logico-physical principle explains everything, including itself

HOW COULD YOU NOT WANT TO LOOK INTO THIS OMG CRETINS I DON'T EVEN HAVE A BAD TRACK RECORD
One timeless logico-physical principle TO RULE THEM ALL
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Unread 03-07-2022, 02:03 PM   #1512 (permalink)
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I searched the thread to see if this argument had already been addressed, and I do not think it has, which is surprising because it really seems like the simplest and most convincing argument there is.

The first Christians, those who would have witnessed Christ's death and resurrection, were absolutely brutalized. They were tortured and killed for their professing of Christ's resurrection. Some were crucified, some were mauled by dogs, and some were burned alive. Why would anyone accept this penalty when all they had to do to escape this fate was deny Christ? It doesn't make sense. I would not suffer this fate willingly if there was an easy way out. Not unless I had witnessed Christ with my own eyes. Even then...it's difficult to imagine.

Look at the Disciples. When Christ was killed, they fled and hid. Presumably because they were afraid of being killed, too. But after Christ returned from the dead and appeared to them, they changed dramatically. They went out and boldly spread the word of God, to the point where nearly every single one of them was brutally executed (most by crucifixion, though some were burned alive).

I think these two things, the brutal murders of the first Christian Martyrs and the dramatic change in the behavior of the Disciples is pretty convincing evidence that Jesus is the Son of God.
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Unread 03-08-2022, 09:44 AM   #1513 (permalink)
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Source? If they are Christian sources could the accounts just be Christian propoganda?
But yes humans accepting a good old torturing when they could get out of it is unusual behaviour.
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Unread 03-08-2022, 01:04 PM   #1514 (permalink)
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Even if the fate of the first Christians is propaganda, there is no question that there have been many Christian Martyrs recorded over the ages who were tortured and killed for their faith all around the world. Even to this day, Christians in the Middle East and Africa are victimized, tortured, and killed because of their faith.
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Unread 03-09-2022, 06:11 AM   #1515 (permalink)
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If there are examples of people from other religions doing weird stuff like accepting being tortured instead of renouncing their religion would that make their prophets real too?
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Unread 03-09-2022, 06:44 AM   #1516 (permalink)
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I would say it definitely lends some credibility to the power of their faith.
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Unread 03-09-2022, 12:54 PM   #1517 (permalink)
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Even if the fate of the first Christians is propaganda, there is no question that there have been many Christian Martyrs recorded over the ages who were tortured and killed for their faith all around the world. Even to this day, Christians in the Middle East and Africa are victimized, tortured, and killed because of their faith.
Sorta circular logic, no?

People today are devout (to the point of martyrdom) because they believe that those that actually witnessed Christ were devout. But, if there's no actual evidence that the original people were devout to the point of martyrdom, doesn't that just mean that those that are devout today are misguided?

I have no doubt that religious faith is a very powerful thing. I also have no doubt that cults of all sort are a powerful thing. Without actual evidence to the contrary, I'm not too sure the former isn't just a subset of the latter.
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Unread 03-10-2022, 06:14 AM   #1518 (permalink)
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Wolverhampton Wanderers South Bank are legendary for their commitment to the club, they travel the country, shout abuse very loudly at their opposition and will spill blood for their club.
It shows the power of their faith! Number 1 ranked fans in the League, other teams might have smaller gods but the wolf is the leader as demonstrated by the fans.
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Unread 03-10-2022, 09:32 AM   #1519 (permalink)
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I didn't think the second post through very clearly, and dent's counter popped into my head shortly after I pressed the submit button. It bears no relevance to the initial argument anyways. So the question becomes is there historical evidence the apostles were martyred? There isn't much non-Christian evidence, but there is at least one secular account of James, Jesus' brother (not officially an apostle), being stoned to death for "lawbreaking", which in this time and place, likely means blasphemy (i.e. faith in Christ). There is quite a lot of Christian evidence, and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as propaganda, but that's my opinion.

At the end of the day, there probably isn't, and will never be, definitive proof of God. We are supposed to have faith, and definitive proof removes faith. I will say that there is ancient wisdom in the teachings of Jesus. I have personally experienced the "fruits of sin", and it is not good. I believe leading a Christian life will lead one to a better life. The "fruits of the Holy Spirit" are joy, peace, tenderness, love, etc.
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Unread 03-10-2022, 12:16 PM   #1520 (permalink)
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Well I thought the internet and atheism would make the world a better place and lol did I learn a lesson there.

Anyway DH i'm going with motivated reasoning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning

How do you deal with the problem of evil? closest thing i've got to an acceptable answer is that evil exists because any alternatives would be more evil, the world we have is the best God could do.

I miss Blonde
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Unread 03-11-2022, 10:49 AM   #1521 (permalink)
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If getting stoned to death makes a martyr (and somehow provides evidence for gods existence) there are millions of gods before jesus. I saw monty python and it seemed like a regular occurance there and so was probably regular in the RL too
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Unread 03-14-2022, 08:56 AM   #1522 (permalink)
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It does when all you had to do was say nah Jesus isn't real to not be stoned to death.

sidenote that must have been some really strong weed
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Unread 03-14-2022, 01:38 PM   #1523 (permalink)
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How do you reconcile the suffering of this world if there is no God and nothing after life? You can't balance the ledger of life without God, imo.
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Unread 03-15-2022, 03:08 PM   #1524 (permalink)
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Yeah I really disagree with Dawkins here, the existence of pleasure and pain, I guess value, are strange things indeed, he doesn't quantify what those values are and what the values would be expected to be if there was a god.
Omni god is out due to problem of evil though IMO, if there's a god I reckon he has constraints.

----

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins
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Unread 03-24-2022, 06:20 AM   #1525 (permalink)
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Do you disagree with Dawks there
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