Wikileaks Shenanigans - Page 3 - Nubblies.net Forums

Beebs · 11-30-2010, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

Both of which assume we deserve to be seen as credible based on our recent (past decade) activities and that our diplomats are doing their jobs properly in the fist place.

I'll give the article a read though.

It does not require that you assume anything, other than that private and secure information between a government and it's diplomats should remain private and secure.

Also, it doesn't just deal with America, it deals with every country that sent confidential communications with us.

It is like taking away lawyer-client or doctor-patient confidentiality, it means that diplomats now cannot operate effectively, from any country.

Repugnant Abomination · 11-30-2010, 04:40 PM

+ 1 to Beebs!

First of all, it's called hegemony. The US is the lone superpower and biggest proponent of liberal democracy, and even though we fuck up a lot it's still better than the autocratic alternative. We do our best to hold the international order together - if you think that because we try to increase our dominant position while doing so makes us the "police of the world" then you're retarded. As long as there are nation states there will be geo-politics. The great game is back in full swing and the stakes are very high.

Second, while I don't like the way Iraq happened, I support the reasons behind it (not the ones given by Bush at the time). They are as follows:

There are four conditions a nation can break to lose its sovereignty. Iraq broke all four.

1. It violated the genocide convention, attempting to destroy an ethnic group (Kurds).

2. It harbored known and wanted international terrorists.

3. Aggression against a neighboring country (Kuwait).

4. It violated the non proliferation treaty (nuclear, biological).

Thirdly, are you really arguing that Saddam, a dictator who attempted genocide against the Kurds and tortured, slaughtered and imprisoned his own people, should still be in power? Do you know how fucking terrible he was? The only reason we don't do the same shit to Kim Jong in North Korea, Putin in Russia, Chavez in Venezuela (etc...) is because the geo-politics are too complicated and there is too much risk. We had an opening to take Saddam out and the world is a better place for it. You can argue we're nation building or it costs too much and I'd grant it merit, but this whole "policemen of the world" bullshit has to stop. Iraq continually gave the United Nations the finger. At what point does an international body act before losing credibility? Sadly the UN has proved to be severely limited - Iraq called its bluff, and the US had to act "alone" (never mind 40+ NATO countries were/are there too).

In an increasingly globalized world where international rules and bodies matter, the idea of isolationism is backwards looking - there is no going back. The values of liberty and democracy are universal no matter how much China tries to deny it. The US is in the unique and special position to try and spread these universal values (and yes, often to our own benefit) and that's a good thing.

Wikileaks wants to undermine the US, purely because the US is the dominant power. People don't understand that some government secrecy is good, because it allows our people to do their job more safely.

Der Fuhrer · 11-30-2010, 05:25 PM

Fuck the government. I'm all for making the world a better place, but there are plenty of problems in America that need to be addressed by the government before we go off on multi billion dollar world policing excursions. Disclaimer: I'm going off on a tangent quite unrelated to the thread's topic.

The main problem I have with the government is how much money they take from the working man. The bastards steal 40% from their paycheck every year. If you think they're only taking from the "rich" you're very wrong. They are screwing the small business owner the hardest, and although he makes a good living, taxes are strangulating potential growth. A truly wealthy individual ($50 million+) is hardly affected by taxes in any way. They have a team of tax lawyers and accountants who can "hide" the money as efficiently as possible.

The government is also a very sly fucking institution. By taking money from most individuals before they even see it, they assure minimal resistance to paying. Some people, however, must write a check to the government after they've already received the money they earned. If everyone had to pay taxes in this manner, there would be a god damn revolt. If any of you ever have to write a six-figure check to the government one day, you'll understand how much that stings. The end result of the strangle-hold taxes have on business is that companies move operations overseas, and as a result, there is higher unemployment and diminished economic growth.

Finally, and to me this is the most fucked up, we have the inheritance tax. After the government steals 40% of your earnings for your entire working-life, they have the audacity to steal 55% of everything you've managed to accumulate in your life before you pass it on to your heirs. THEY WANT OVER HALF OF EVERYTHING! Is that not extremely fucked up? Fuck the government. It is a shameful institution of thieves.

Repugnant Abomination · 11-30-2010, 05:37 PM

And yet you live in a country where you can openly say, "fuck the government, blah blah blah" and they won't poison you or rip your tongue out. A lot of the world can't say the same, and it's those parts of the world we're fighting against.

DJ FC · 11-30-2010, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

The values of liberty and democracy are universal

Liberty is great, can't argue with you there, but why does everybody suck democracy's dick so much? It's really not that good and certainly should not be a virtue in my mind. Pretty far from it.

Beebs · 11-30-2010, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Fuhrer

Fuck the government. I'm all for making the world a better place, but there are plenty of problems in America that need to be addressed by the government before we go off on multi billion dollar world policing excursions.

You can't make the world a better place if nobody, especially the heads of government, are not allowed honest conversation. In the world of diplomacy, you can't have honest communication if you cannot have secret conversation.

Beebs · 11-30-2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ FC

Liberty is great, can't argue with you there, but why does everybody suck democracy's dick so much? It's really not that good and certainly should not be a virtue in my mind. Pretty far from it.

Because a benevolent dictator is not possible, especially not a competent one. The right to self determination is one of the most important rights in anything approaching a free society.

Beebs · 11-30-2010, 06:09 PM

I mean for fucks sake, the amount of bitching amongst some of you that goes on about a certain set of privacy rules, yet nobody seems to think that world governments deserve even that amount of respect for privacy and, by international law, ownership, of their documents between countries and between a country and it's foreign diplomats.

Some of those diplomats are in places where even the basic rules of foreign diplomatic missions are regularly put to a test, are in imminent fucking danger because of this, danger to their well being and or life.

It seems that the people who so vehemently bitch and cry about a private agreement between friends, are the ones most likely to not care about a worldwide agreement that has basically laid the foundation for all of diplomacy in the history of the fucking universe.

Fruitacious B · 11-30-2010, 06:32 PM

Iraq would've been one thing if they hadn't used 9/11 as the jumping off point for it while completely losing sight of the enemy, Osama Fucking Bin Laden. It wasn't the right time to take Saddam, we should've finished the job during Desert Storm, or at least waited until we'd cleared up Bin Laden. Also, most of the evidence as to why we went came back empty handed.

Edit: They can have their privacy, when I can have mine. Fuck them.

Beebs · 11-30-2010, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fruitacious B

Iraq would've been one thing if they hadn't used 9/11 as the jumping off point for it while completely losing sight of the enemy, Osama Fucking Bin Laden. It wasn't the right time to take Saddam, we should've finished the job during Desert Storm, or at least waited until we'd cleared up Bin Laden. Also, most of the evidence as to why we went came back empty handed.

Edit: They can have their privacy, when I can have mine. Fuck them.

You have privacy, especially with regard to things that legally require it: like doctor and lawyer confidentiality.

But your attitude of "Wah wah wah, fuck them, I'm so oppressed, so professional diplomats should not be able to communicate, even things that are inflammatory, or could endanger your or your nations security" is certainly not without merit.

Fruitacious B · 11-30-2010, 07:09 PM

I'm referring more to the Patriot Act and unwarranted wiretapping that have become commonplace, among other things. If the government wanted to, they could black bag any one of us, put us to trial without representation in front of a military tribunal, and throw you in a cell for as long as they like.

So yeah, wah wah wah. And fuck them again.

Repugnant Abomination · 11-30-2010, 07:21 PM

I agree with you there. The patriot act is too far reaching in my opinion - there has to be a balance between security, civil liberties and privacy. It should've had a sunset clause. That said, where exactly do you draw the line between privacy and security? The fact is there are religious extremists who want nothing more than to bomb and behead us. This isn't Orwell's government oppression masquerading as perpetual war. Just a few days ago in Portland, Oregon they stopped some crazy jihadist from carrying out a car bombing attack at a Christmas tree lighting ceremony.

Beebs · 11-30-2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fruitacious B

I'm referring more to the Patriot Act and unwarranted wiretapping that have become commonplace, among other things. If the government wanted to, they could black bag any one of us, put us to trial without representation in front of a military tribunal, and throw you in a cell for as long as they like.

So yeah, wah wah wah. And fuck them again.

Yea and speeding tickets suck too.

That doesn't mean the fucking basis for communication between nations, and therefore the biggest contributor to keeping the world from being blown into a nuclear fucking winter should just be cast aside.

This isn't just about one government, this is about every government, and in a wider view the privacy and property rights of everybody on earth.

Beebs · 11-30-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

I agree with you there. The patriot act is too far reaching in my opinion - there has to be a balance between security, civil liberties and privacy. It should've had a sunset clause.

And it has exactly dick to with this wikileaks issue.

Repugnant Abomination · 11-30-2010, 07:32 PM

Yeah, I had put in my original post that it had absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about, but I edited it out.

Beebs · 11-30-2010, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Yeah, I had put in my original post that it had
absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about, but I edited it out.

ಠ_ಠ

SinisterKid · 12-01-2010, 01:51 AM

I'm new to this site, this is my first post, I will act accordingly and hope to be not so "FNG."

The Wikileaks thread is also the first thread I read. I very much disapprove of Wikileaks and what it doesn't stand for, and am reposting a rant of mine from Facebook regarding Julian Assange.

First, I believe he believes his methods are commended universally. They are not, however, commended universally. At a debate on journalistic integrity and ethics last year in London, he refused to answer any questions regarding his own journalistic integrity and ethics, or questions regarding the negative effects of his "journalism." The common perception among qualified journalists there was, despite the perceived benefits of his "whistle-blowing," he was a rogue individual acting without regard for anyone but himself. Second, it is my own perception that he behaves as if he feels he has been personally wronged by the United States or its allies, and is acting out a vendetta. I think it is also obvious he desperately desires the attention he now receives. Third, I believe the majority of diplomacy should, by its nature, be secretive and time sensitive. For example, as the article you posted above clearly indicates, China has allied with and supported North Korea publicly for decades, but privately supports a unified Korea and looks at North Korea with contempt. The dialogues of diplomats that shape international policy - shaping which often is realized very far down the road - are not meant to be public, because the public demands immediacy. Diplomacy requires so much patience, delicacy, and/or candidness, can be affected by countless external factors, and can result in countless negative externalities, that its secret nature and time sensitivity should be a foregone conclusion. The recent leaks Assange has publicized - in a drawn-out, center-stage, look at me kind of way - are not his property, foment more sensationalized hatred of the West, and erode diplomatic foundations. Finally, he looks like a villain.

The link referred to above:

BBC News - Wikileaks cables: China 'frustrated' by North Korea

Orgazmo · 12-02-2010, 01:14 AM

Bumping because the last post was moderated until now. You can now read it in all of its unmoderated glory.

Cocktooth · 12-02-2010, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f3lix

In total agreement with Blonde. Meritless action should be known internationally. One of the things I hate the most is how smug America acts, then when somebody fights back, they are considered terrorists or a threat and we try to outcast them to the rest of the world.

I'm not reading the rest of this thread, but I read this, and it upsets me. I'm not saying Felix is the only one, but does anyone remember how we felt on 9-11? Yes, Blonde was shaving his chest hair, Felix was striking up the band, and Beebs, well he was high, but some of us actually sat there and watched our free world get attacked. Of course Iraq wasn't the problem, and yes, Bush tried to make it a solution. We were attacked for one reason, and that is because we are a nation above all the rest.

Call it what you want, but the US is more advance then any other country in the world in all aspects. That being said, we were attacked on our own soil. During that time, we had just elected a new president, and this nation was in termoil politcally, just as we are now. I remember back to that day, and wanting to fight for my country without a drop of the hat. Now, we have people bitching about getting a tiny little pat down at an airport, or a questioning when you cross the border.

These same people sat in front of their TV screens on 9-11-2001 saying do whatever it takes to make this country safe. Where did the passion for American safety dissolve? Where did the passion for this country resolve? When the politcal wars starting boiling again. We were one nation for 4 years. Bush could do no wrong. Until he invaded Iraq, I thought the same thing.

We are once again, a nation divided. Sooner rather then later, we are going to be put to the test. 93 Truck Bomb WTC. In 2001 9-11. We are going to get challenged again soon, and at that time, are you going to back a political pary, or are you going to back our country??

Mr. Blonde · 12-02-2010, 01:51 AM

Clearly you misunderstand my past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaw

Yes, Blonde was beginning puberty at the tender age of almost 17

Cocktooth · 12-02-2010, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

Clearly you misunderstand my past.

No I didn't. Judging by my calculations, 17 was just about the time you were jacking off to Abercrombie catalogs, and cleaning up with some Hollister pages.

Mr. Blonde · 12-02-2010, 02:43 AM

Well that certainly sounds more accurate, but the point I was trying to make was that I didn't have chest hair till I was like 21.

Fruitacious B · 12-02-2010, 02:56 AM

Beebs · 12-02-2010, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaw

, and Beebs, well he was high, but some of us actually sat there and watched our free world get attacked.

lulz.

Sadly I was in a horrible and useless outdated programming class learning C++. The fucking nerd of a teacher didn't even turn the TV on, despite the fact that I pointed out "you realize this is the biggest event of any of our lives, don't you?"

f3lix · 12-02-2010, 03:26 PM

My flaming liberal economics teacher wouldn't turn it on either, but I wrote a reaction letter to the editor of our school paper saying that this is what we deserved. The main point of the LtE was "We stuck our noses in everybody's business, and we got our noses bloodied."

I foolishly thought that this message sent to us would make us reconsider our global policing policies. And we sure did... we made it ten times worse. It sickens me.

11-30-2010, 04:40 PM	#52 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 161638	+ 1 to Beebs! First of all, it's called hegemony. The US is the lone superpower and biggest proponent of liberal democracy, and even though we fuck up a lot it's still better than the autocratic alternative. We do our best to hold the international order together - if you think that because we try to increase our dominant position while doing so makes us the "police of the world" then you're retarded. As long as there are nation states there will be geo-politics. The great game is back in full swing and the stakes are very high. Second, while I don't like the way Iraq happened, I support the reasons behind it (not the ones given by Bush at the time). They are as follows: There are four conditions a nation can break to lose its sovereignty. Iraq broke all four. 1. It violated the genocide convention, attempting to destroy an ethnic group (Kurds). 2. It harbored known and wanted international terrorists. 3. Aggression against a neighboring country (Kuwait). 4. It violated the non proliferation treaty (nuclear, biological). Thirdly, are you really arguing that Saddam, a dictator who attempted genocide against the Kurds and tortured, slaughtered and imprisoned his own people, should still be in power? Do you know how fucking terrible he was? The only reason we don't do the same shit to Kim Jong in North Korea, Putin in Russia, Chavez in Venezuela (etc...) is because the geo-politics are too complicated and there is too much risk. We had an opening to take Saddam out and the world is a better place for it. You can argue we're nation building or it costs too much and I'd grant it merit, but this whole "policemen of the world" bullshit has to stop. Iraq continually gave the United Nations the finger. At what point does an international body act before losing credibility? Sadly the UN has proved to be severely limited - Iraq called its bluff, and the US had to act "alone" (never mind 40+ NATO countries were/are there too). In an increasingly globalized world where international rules and bodies matter, the idea of isolationism is backwards looking - there is no going back. The values of liberty and democracy are universal no matter how much China tries to deny it. The US is in the unique and special position to try and spread these universal values (and yes, often to our own benefit) and that's a good thing. Wikileaks wants to undermine the US, purely because the US is the dominant power. People don't understand that some government secrecy is good, because it allows our people to do their job more safely.
	Last edited by Repugnant Abomination; 11-30-2010 at 07:17 PM.

11-30-2010, 06:32 PM	#59 (permalink)
Fruitacious B Bokononist Join Date: May 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,595 Internets: 11801	Iraq would've been one thing if they hadn't used 9/11 as the jumping off point for it while completely losing sight of the enemy, Osama Fucking Bin Laden. It wasn't the right time to take Saddam, we should've finished the job during Desert Storm, or at least waited until we'd cleared up Bin Laden. Also, most of the evidence as to why we went came back empty handed. Edit: They can have their privacy, when I can have mine. Fuck them.
	"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand." \|vonnegut

11-30-2010, 07:09 PM	#61 (permalink)
Fruitacious B Bokononist Join Date: May 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,595 Internets: 11801	I'm referring more to the Patriot Act and unwarranted wiretapping that have become commonplace, among other things. If the government wanted to, they could black bag any one of us, put us to trial without representation in front of a military tribunal, and throw you in a cell for as long as they like. So yeah, wah wah wah. And fuck them again.
	"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand." \|vonnegut

11-30-2010, 07:21 PM	#62 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 161638	I agree with you there. The patriot act is too far reaching in my opinion - there has to be a balance between security, civil liberties and privacy. It should've had a sunset clause. That said, where exactly do you draw the line between privacy and security? The fact is there are religious extremists who want nothing more than to bomb and behead us. This isn't Orwell's government oppression masquerading as perpetual war. Just a few days ago in Portland, Oregon they stopped some crazy jihadist from carrying out a car bombing attack at a Christmas tree lighting ceremony.
	Last edited by Repugnant Abomination; 11-30-2010 at 07:29 PM.

12-02-2010, 02:56 AM	#73 (permalink)
Fruitacious B Bokononist Join Date: May 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,595 Internets: 11801
	"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand." \|vonnegut

11-30-2010, 05:25 PM	#53 (permalink)
Der Fuhrer Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 549 Internets: 5464	Fuck the government. I'm all for making the world a better place, but there are plenty of problems in America that need to be addressed by the government before we go off on multi billion dollar world policing excursions. Disclaimer: I'm going off on a tangent quite unrelated to the thread's topic. The main problem I have with the government is how much money they take from the working man. The bastards steal 40% from their paycheck every year. If you think they're only taking from the "rich" you're very wrong. They are screwing the small business owner the hardest, and although he makes a good living, taxes are strangulating potential growth. A truly wealthy individual ($50 million+) is hardly affected by taxes in any way. They have a team of tax lawyers and accountants who can "hide" the money as efficiently as possible. The government is also a very sly fucking institution. By taking money from most individuals before they even see it, they assure minimal resistance to paying. Some people, however, must write a check to the government after they've already received the money they earned. If everyone had to pay taxes in this manner, there would be a god damn revolt. If any of you ever have to write a six-figure check to the government one day, you'll understand how much that stings. The end result of the strangle-hold taxes have on business is that companies move operations overseas, and as a result, there is higher unemployment and diminished economic growth. Finally, and to me this is the most fucked up, we have the inheritance tax. After the government steals 40% of your earnings for your entire working-life, they have the audacity to steal 55% of everything you've managed to accumulate in your life before you pass it on to your heirs. THEY WANT OVER HALF OF EVERYTHING! Is that not extremely fucked up? Fuck the government. It is a shameful institution of thieves.

11-30-2010, 05:37 PM	#54 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 161638	And yet you live in a country where you can openly say, "fuck the government, blah blah blah" and they won't poison you or rip your tongue out. A lot of the world can't say the same, and it's those parts of the world we're fighting against.

11-30-2010, 06:09 PM	#58 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	I mean for fucks sake, the amount of bitching amongst some of you that goes on about a certain set of privacy rules, yet nobody seems to think that world governments deserve even that amount of respect for privacy and, by international law, ownership, of their documents between countries and between a country and it's foreign diplomats. Some of those diplomats are in places where even the basic rules of foreign diplomatic missions are regularly put to a test, are in imminent fucking danger because of this, danger to their well being and or life. It seems that the people who so vehemently bitch and cry about a private agreement between friends, are the ones most likely to not care about a worldwide agreement that has basically laid the foundation for all of diplomacy in the history of the fucking universe.

11-30-2010, 07:32 PM	#65 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 161638	Yeah, I had put in my original post that it had absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about, but I edited it out.

12-01-2010, 01:51 AM	#67 (permalink)
SinisterKid Hide your nieces. Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 293 Internets: 7656	I'm new to this site, this is my first post, I will act accordingly and hope to be not so "FNG." The Wikileaks thread is also the first thread I read. I very much disapprove of Wikileaks and what it doesn't stand for, and am reposting a rant of mine from Facebook regarding Julian Assange. First, I believe he believes his methods are commended universally. They are not, however, commended universally. At a debate on journalistic integrity and ethics last year in London, he refused to answer any questions regarding his own journalistic integrity and ethics, or questions regarding the negative effects of his "journalism." The common perception among qualified journalists there was, despite the perceived benefits of his "whistle-blowing," he was a rogue individual acting without regard for anyone but himself. Second, it is my own perception that he behaves as if he feels he has been personally wronged by the United States or its allies, and is acting out a vendetta. I think it is also obvious he desperately desires the attention he now receives. Third, I believe the majority of diplomacy should, by its nature, be secretive and time sensitive. For example, as the article you posted above clearly indicates, China has allied with and supported North Korea publicly for decades, but privately supports a unified Korea and looks at North Korea with contempt. The dialogues of diplomats that shape international policy - shaping which often is realized very far down the road - are not meant to be public, because the public demands immediacy. Diplomacy requires so much patience, delicacy, and/or candidness, can be affected by countless external factors, and can result in countless negative externalities, that its secret nature and time sensitivity should be a foregone conclusion. The recent leaks Assange has publicized - in a drawn-out, center-stage, look at me kind of way - are not his property, foment more sensationalized hatred of the West, and erode diplomatic foundations. Finally, he looks like a villain. The link referred to above: BBC News - Wikileaks cables: China 'frustrated' by North Korea

12-02-2010, 01:14 AM	#68 (permalink)
Orgazmo COME ON YOU YANKS Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 15,699 Internets: 305662	Bumping because the last post was moderated until now. You can now read it in all of its unmoderated glory.

12-02-2010, 02:43 AM	#72 (permalink)
Mr. Blonde Spice Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 17,969 Internets: 278288	Well that certainly sounds more accurate, but the point I was trying to make was that I didn't have chest hair till I was like 21.

12-02-2010, 03:26 PM	#75 (permalink)
f3lix Gangnam Style Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DH's Massage Parlor Posts: 6,383 Internets: 213510	My flaming liberal economics teacher wouldn't turn it on either, but I wrote a reaction letter to the editor of our school paper saying that this is what we deserved. The main point of the LtE was "We stuck our noses in everybody's business, and we got our noses bloodied." I foolishly thought that this message sent to us would make us reconsider our global policing policies. And we sure did... we made it ten times worse. It sickens me.