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Old 08-27-2012, 02:06 PM   #76 (permalink)
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As an aside, I recently found out the other day that not only did the Nazi's kill 6 million jews, but 5 million+ Poles and Soviet POW's (among countless millions of other people guilty of other random things like homosexuality etc., but these numbers really hit me hard).

That is amazing to me. Not to sound shitty or anything, obviously it's terrible what happened to the Jews, but I just wish awareness of the others was talked about just as much.
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Old 08-27-2012, 02:15 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Don't be sad. The Jews get to live in this iteration of German dominance.
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Old 08-27-2012, 02:55 PM   #78 (permalink)
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This gets way less attention than it deserves:

Mass killings under Communist regimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.
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Old 08-27-2012, 03:25 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Back on topic: The truth is Britain is more civilized than the US. How does FC define civilization? I think it's how orderly people act when they aren't required to be. For example:

British people will naturally form an orderly line (queue) wherever possible. They don't bunch up into a big nasty crowd when boarding an airplane or a bus, or waiting for an ATM (like the Spanish do). Nobody is telling them that if they jump the queue they'll be in trouble with the law. Social convention merely guides them to behave in an orderly way. This social convention is civilization.

Americans are generally friendly and willing to help someone in need. Americans are the most charitable people on the planet. We don't say high to strangers or help out a lost dude walking down the street because the law says to do it. We don't donate our time and money to charities because we'll go to jail otherwise. We do so because we're civilized. And our level of civilization guides our decision making into socially beneficial actions.

Germans work hard and place efficiency of production very high in their list of priorities. They don't work hard because the government coerces them to work hard. They don't even work hard because they are threatened with a poor quality of life otherwise - the German social system is quite generous to people who don't work hard. They work hard because it's their culture. And they are a highly civilized people.

Japanese people respect their elders. They don't do so because of the law. They do so because they're civilized.

Make sense? In my time in Britain I've come to admire many of the British "sensibilities" that have evolved since the industrial revolution. Britain is a pretty civilized place. Probably more so than America. Too many people in America are disfunctional members of society held in check only by the law.


The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.
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Old 08-27-2012, 03:44 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DJ FC View Post
Good read but why is there not a wiki page on mass killings under capitalism?
Does the irish famine/slave trade and such not count?

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Americans are the most charitable people on the planet.
I've always thought that the UK donated the most per person, and that the UK would be seen worldwide as most charitable.. live aid comic relief and so on
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Old 08-27-2012, 04:00 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dent View Post
Good read but why is there not a wiki page on mass killings under capitalism?
Does the irish famine/slave trade and such not count?



I've always thought that the UK donated the most per person, and that the UK would be seen worldwide as most charitable.. live aid comic relief and so on
This British source says USA is 6th and UK 8th. I'm sure I could find an American one that's biased the other way.

Charitable giving by country: who is the most generous? Full data | Global development | guardian.co.uk

http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/24/ame...1226eaves.html

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Based on giving alone, the U.S. comes first, giving 1.85% of GDP, followed by Israel at 1.34% and Canada at 1.17%. But based on volunteerism alone, the Netherlands comes first, followed by Sweden and then the U.S.

The more studies you read about motivations for philanthropy, the murkier they become. One fact, though, does stand out: Among developed nations, those with higher taxes and bigger social safety nets tend to have lower rates of giving. In charitable giving as a percentage of GDP, nations with cradle-to-grave welfare systems rank far down the Johns Hopkins list: Sweden 18th, France 21st, Germany 32nd.


The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.
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Old 08-27-2012, 04:34 PM   #82 (permalink)
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The Guardian? the anti-semiteian more like.
Obviously charity doesn't just mean $ but the score for volunteering time/score for helping a stranger questions on that gallup poll sounds off.
I'm referring more to foreign aid, realise that maybe you're talking about "general charity"

List of governments by development aid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Aren't these the right stats to be using?

"While the UK is the most generous G8 economy in international aid relative to GNI, it does not give the most aid of any country in the world, neither relative to GNI or in absolute terms. "

Edit : and to go even more off topic, here's Pat Condell's view on The Guardian and anti-semitism, thoughts?

Last edited by Dent; 08-27-2012 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 08-27-2012, 04:49 PM   #83 (permalink)
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No country is as civilized as the US, and it's not even fucking close.

We have the best infrastructure on the planet. We have the largest percentage of land mass that anyone would be safe to move about as they please at any time of the day or night. We have the best medical facilities and the best post-secondary institutions on Earth. Do I need to keep going? I can't believe this is even a debate.

The dumbest thing Americans have ever done is let the Europeans convince us that they're smarter than we are.

Huge lol at the Germans being more civilized than Americans. There have been few countries with as much political and economic instability and bloodshed in the last 100 years as Germany. Fuck Germany.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:00 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
No country is as civilized as the US, and it's not even fucking close.
Have you ever left the country?
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:03 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Yes, on multiple occasions.

Not that it has any relevance. Are any of my arguments wrong? Do I really need to list more?

You people are confusing civilization with politeness, good manners, and proper social norms, which may be part of the picture, but it's a small part.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:17 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dent View Post
I'm referring more to foreign aid, realise that maybe you're talking about "general charity"

List of governments by development aid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Aren't these the right stats to be using?
Explain to me why forcibly taxing the population and then giving that money away is charity. Of course I don't count public aid. That money was forcibly taken and is definitely not charity. Your link explicitly ignores private charitable contributions, which in my opinion should be the only ones that count at all!


The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:20 PM   #87 (permalink)
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I don't know about wrong but all of your arguements are debatable.
best infrastructure on the planet. - maybe, still import a lot of oil though, if those machines ran out of grease..
largest percentage of land mass to roam - doesn't look like you fuckers do enough of that roaming.
medical facilities - you have the cream of the crop, but not the best.
the best post-secondary institutions - yes, go USA. very good at importing smart people.

Edit :
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ FC View Post
Explain to me why forcibly taxing the population and then giving that money away is charity. Of course I don't count public aid. That money was forcibly taken and is definitely not charity. Your link explicitly ignores private charitable contributions, which in my opinion should be the only ones that count at all!
The only way of taxing is forcibly, right?
You're right, it's not charity the money is taken without permission. we do vote on who we give permission to give our money away, surely the willingness of the UK to give to much away has some reflection on the population? no doubt lots of aid is given for un-altruistic reasons.

Last edited by Dent; 08-27-2012 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:28 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
No country is as civilized as the US, and it's not even fucking close.
Do go on. Not even "fucking close," you say?


Quote:
We have the best infrastructure on the planet.
I see. So fast internet and good roads = civilized? I suppose China is number 2 in civilization (but not even "fucking close" to MERICA)

Quote:
We have the largest percentage of land mass that anyone would be safe to move about as they please at any time of the day or night.
So it's big ass land that makes us civilized. I get it. Canada isn't civilized cus of all the polar bears!!!! Russia too. Cus MERICA IS SAFE YO. Nobody be gettin capped in da hood over some polar bear melting glacier territorial rivalry. Nope. MERICA is a giant playground of safety. Defnit. Check the stats.

Quote:
We have the best medical facilities and the best post-secondary institutions on Earth.
MERICA's medical facilities keep us in THE TOP FORTY of life expectancy!!!! HOLY SHIT WE KICK ASS. And it's NOT EVEN FUCKING CLOSE how much we're number 1 in university. Cambridge and Oxford can suck our MIGHTY BIG CIVILIZED DONGS!!!!!


Quote:
Do I need to keep going? I can't believe this is even a debate.
I agree with you 100%


Quote:
The dumbest thing Americans have ever done is let the Europeans convince us that they're smarter than we are.
Cus MERICANS ARE SMARTER! WE LEFT EUROPE AND THEREFORE ARE THE STRONGEST/SMARTEST CHILD OF THE FAMILY AND THE DUMB ONES STAYED IN EUROPE AND SO OUR BRAINS ARE BETTER

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Huge lol at the Germans being more civilized than Americans. There have been few countries with as much political and economic instability and bloodshed in the last 100 years as Germany. Fuck Germany.
Agreed. These German Bastards. What were they thinking when they started WWI? Just ask the next German you see why he did it.

Complete dofuses.


The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:34 PM   #89 (permalink)
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USA INFRASTRUCTURE DOMINANCE:

Most abundant clean water
Largest distribution of electrical power
Largest distribution and most sophisticated highway and roads system
Best quality roads
Largest distribution of natural gas via pipelines
Largest distribution of telecommunication lines
Largest distribution of coal, oil, and gasoline
Largest number of gas stations
Largest number of schools
Largest number of libraries
Largest number of computers
Largest amount of developed agricultural land
Most automobiles
Largest distribution of supply chain networks
Largest economy
Most banks
Most post offices
Largest distribution of indoor plumbing and sewer systems
Largest domestic and international airport network


Silly Europe:
Most advanced civilian rail way system.

Good job.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:37 PM   #90 (permalink)
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I'd be willing to bet that at least half of those aren't true.

I know for a fact that Europe's economy is larger than the USA just off the top of my head. Please don't edit that post in case I need to fact check and prove that pretty much everything you wrote is absolute garbage. Regardless. I'm glad America is civilized (it takes over 300 million people for any of them to be civilized... you see you need the biggest internet) I feel bad for the poor-uncivilized bastards in Monaco - barbarians don't even have a single airport!!!


The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.

Last edited by DJ FC; 08-27-2012 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:43 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DJ FC View Post

I know for a fact that Europe's economy is larger than the USA
A-ha!


Europe-Definately not a country

Edit : Just a thought, isn't it hard to be civilized when 50% of the population is religious?

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Old 08-27-2012, 05:54 PM   #92 (permalink)
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FC, if you don't think infrastructure = civilization, then there's no point in having an argument with you. Your definition of civilization is wrong and you are wrong. Quit being such a Euro fanboy because "you're somebody important who lives in London now" (said like the pouty little boy that you are).

There are so many holes in your self-righteous cocksucking response that I don't even know where to go next. Honestly, I'm having a hard time even giving a shit about what you said. But for humor's sake let's talk about your definition of civilization again, which apparently to you means that people act decently even when they "don't have to". Certainly having the largest percentage of land mass that is safe to move about has some relevance then, even if your definition of civilization is so wrong it almost became right again.

Next, you felt the need to mock me by exploiting my ignorance of the UKs two most elite schools. Wow, you got me there. Except that two fucking schools don't make up the post-secondary system of an entire fucking country, you fucking doofus. We have the largest number of accredited schools in the world. We have the largest number of top ranking schools in the world. I'm really not sure how you missed my point. I thought you were supposed to be smart.

Lastly, because frankly I don't feel like arguing with someone who acts like a 12 year old, let's look at your attack on our medical system. But wait a second...didn't you yourself state that you retain 'Merican health insurance, even though you wear your fancy big-boy pants to work in London now. Why on Earth did you do something like that when our meager little healthcare system only places us in the top 40 for life expectancy?

Now, I believe you're late for the train to fuck-off-me-land. Fuck off.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:59 PM   #93 (permalink)
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I genuinely believe that Japan is more civilized than the USA. Civilization is about the people. No amount of infrastructure alone can make a people civilized.


The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:12 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Aren't you guys being a bit holothetic about all this?
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:36 PM   #95 (permalink)
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hella holothetic imo.

Putting the sensual in non-consensual.
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:38 PM   #96 (permalink)
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I think DH is simply confused. Most advanced civilization =/ most civilized.
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:06 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ FC View Post
Back on topic: The truth is Britain is more civilized than the US. How does FC define civilization? I think it's how orderly people act when they aren't required to be. For example:

British people will naturally form an orderly line (queue) wherever possible. They don't bunch up into a big nasty crowd when boarding an airplane or a bus, or waiting for an ATM (like the Spanish do). Nobody is telling them that if they jump the queue they'll be in trouble with the law. Social convention merely guides them to behave in an orderly way. This social convention is civilization.

Americans are generally friendly and willing to help someone in need. Americans are the most charitable people on the planet. We don't say high to strangers or help out a lost dude walking down the street because the law says to do it. We don't donate our time and money to charities because we'll go to jail otherwise. We do so because we're civilized. And our level of civilization guides our decision making into socially beneficial actions.

Germans work hard and place efficiency of production very high in their list of priorities. They don't work hard because the government coerces them to work hard. They don't even work hard because they are threatened with a poor quality of life otherwise - the German social system is quite generous to people who don't work hard. They work hard because it's their culture. And they are a highly civilized people.

Japanese people respect their elders. They don't do so because of the law. They do so because they're civilized.

Make sense? In my time in Britain I've come to admire many of the British "sensibilities" that have evolved since the industrial revolution. Britain is a pretty civilized place. Probably more so than America. Too many people in America are disfunctional members of society held in check only by the law.
I have absolutely zero problem with this post.
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:08 PM   #98 (permalink)
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BTW I love how Dent came back and basically started throwing drunken haymakers at everyone, lol.
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:11 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Aren't you guys being a bit holothetic about all this?
You clearly have a poor understanding of holothetic logic.

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Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard
I think DH is simply confused. Most advanced civilization =/ most civilized.
Yeah, guess you're right. Civility is basically culture, which basically boils down to manners and politeness. Although one might say there is a very fine line between culture and civilization.
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:16 PM   #100 (permalink)
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FC, if you don't think infrastructure = civilization, then there's no point in having an argument with you. Your definition of civilization is wrong and you are wrong. Quit being such a Euro fanboy because "you're somebody important who lives in London now" (said like the pouty little boy that you are).

There are so many holes in your self-righteous cocksucking response that I don't even know where to go next. Honestly, I'm having a hard time even giving a shit about what you said. But for humor's sake let's talk about your definition of civilization again, which apparently to you means that people act decently even when they "don't have to". Certainly having the largest percentage of land mass that is safe to move about has some relevance then, even if your definition of civilization is so wrong it almost became right again.

Next, you felt the need to mock me by exploiting my ignorance of the UKs two most elite schools. Wow, you got me there. Except that two fucking schools don't make up the post-secondary system of an entire fucking country, you fucking doofus. We have the largest number of accredited schools in the world. We have the largest number of top ranking schools in the world. I'm really not sure how you missed my point. I thought you were supposed to be smart.

Lastly, because frankly I don't feel like arguing with someone who acts like a 12 year old, let's look at your attack on our medical system. But wait a second...didn't you yourself state that you retain 'Merican health insurance, even though you wear your fancy big-boy pants to work in London now. Why on Earth did you do something like that when our meager little healthcare system only places us in the top 40 for life expectancy?

Now, I believe you're late for the train to fuck-off-me-land. Fuck off.
DH, your entire post sounded much more like a close-minded right-wing 12 year old than anybody else.

What you really need to realize is that just because you give someone a heated insult, doesn't, in fact, make it true. All it does is make people take you less seriously.
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