Marvin Minsky is FUCKING DEAD AND HE'S NEVER COMING BACK

[Dent]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/bu...ies-at-88.html

[Dent]

JK guys he got cryopreserved at Alcor he's going to nob your great granddaughter

[Saint DH]

I was under the impression that cyro preservation essentially destroys the cells and that resurrection of those who have undergone this process is and will probably always be impossible.

In other words, if we could resurrect these people, we could probably resurrect anyone who's ever died.

[Dent]

Originally Posted by Johnny Richter

I was under the impression that cyro preservation essentially destroys the cells and that resurrection of those who have undergone this process is and will probably always be impossible.

In other words, if we could resurrect these people, we could probably resurrect anyone who's ever died.

I don't know what gave you that impression, I don't know what you mean by essentially or destroys cells either.

Quantum Archaeology in the right hands might be able to res anyone but i'll bet that it will be easier to bring someone back that was preserved instead of making a new one out of clay.

Here's a paper where they preserved a rabbit liver and transplanted it and it worked, again I think dirt would be harder to transplant.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2781097/

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by Dent

I don't know what gave you that impression, I don't know what you mean by essentially or destroys cells either.

In America what he said is actually common lore about cryonics. There is a famous cryonics center in Scottsdale, AZ that caters mostly to individuals suffering from diseases we cannot currently cure, essentially "Fry-ing" themselves into the YEAR 3000!!!, in hopes we will then have the medical technology to heal them.

Cryonics: Alcor Life Extension Foundation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcor_...ion_Foundation

I have also heard/read over the years that due to the crystallization destroying cells in this process, it wasn't viable for resurrection.

Here is the part DH is referring to, from the Wikipedia article on Cryonics:

Long-term cryopreservation can be achieved by cooling to near 77.15 Kelvin (approximately -196.01°C), the boiling point of liquid nitrogen. It is a common mistaken belief that cells will lyse (burst) due to the formation of ice crystals within the cell, since this only occurs if the freezing rate exceeds the osmotic loss of water to the extracellular space. However, damage from freezing can still be serious; ice may still form between cells, causing mechanical and chemical damage. The difficulties of recovering complex organisms from a frozen state have been long known. Attempts to recover large frozen mammals by simply rewarming were abandoned by 1957.

When used at high concentrations, cryoprotectants stop ice formation completely. Cooling and solidification without crystal formation is called vitrification. The first cryoprotectant solutions able to vitrify at very slow cooling rates while still being compatible with tissue survival were developed in the late 1990s by cryobiologists Gregory Fahy and Brian Wowk for the purpose of banking transplantable organs. This has allowed animal brains to be vitrified, warmed back up, and examined for ice damage using light and electron microscopy. No ice crystal damage was found.

Still, I'm pretty sure all of those people are dead. Thanks to the both of you for wasting my time.

[Dent]

Max More + Natasha Vita-More are pioneer transhumanists. Not Max's real last name, a lot of extropians go for something more forward looking.

Here's a paper Natasha wrote last year on the discovery that C.Elegans (modal organism used in everything) retains memory after they have been revived.
Persistence of Long-Term Memory in Vitrified and Revived Caenorhabditis elegans. - PubMed - NCBI

It's a social not a technical problem whether post-humans will bring back vitrified people, I wouldn't want to come back anything less than angelic.
Cryonics is a great stop gap before real genetic engineering and rejuvenation picks up pace over the coming century.

The legal side of cryonics is fascinating, ideally you want to be vitrified a few hours before your nominal death.

Not sure what the post was about Blonde, what are you telling me again?

[Dent]

Immortality Bus Visits Cryonics Facility - YouTube

Immortality Bus Visits Cryonics Facility - YouTube

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by Dent

Not sure what the post was about Blonde, what are you telling me again?

...The post was a direct response explaining this:

Originally Posted by Dent

I don't know what gave you that impression, I don't know what you mean by essentially or destroys cells either.

The article I posted seemed to lend credence to the idea they were able to revive dead animal tissue, but those people are as good as dead to me until they are resurrected, personality intact, which I do not think we currently have the medical technology to accomplish. Mostly I was making a joke. Existence is bleak enough as it is man, I'm trying to create some fucking levity around here man...

[Dent]

I didn't say that we did have the medical technology to bring them back, if we did it would be done now. Do you think as DH says that it "probably always be impossible."

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

but those people are as good as dead to me until they are resurrected, personality intact

The same good as dead as someone whose ashes have been scattered to the winds? I linked to the worm retaining memory, we're just a bigger version.

No worm has been revived after cremation, under no circumstances would it be easier to revive a cremated worm vs a vitrified one.

I've heard the freezing thing many times too, I don't know why anyone would believe it.

[Dent]

"Alcor neither confirms nor denies whether Prof. Minsky had such arrangements."

Official Alcor Statement Concerning Marvin Minsky - Alcor NewsAlcor News - News Blog of the Alcor Life Extension Foundation

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by Dent

I didn't say that we did have the medical technology to bring them back, if we did it would be done now. Do you think as DH says that it "probably always be impossible."

No, I just think it's very optimistic in terms of individual personality post-resurrection. I don't think individual personality is that important for the most part, as there are 7-billion of them right now who think that they are the center of the universe --- and that's just humans.

I guess I think of it like I would a clone: while there would still be the raw data, and in this case probably more "personality data" than a clone (tabula rasa), I feel like the cryonics process in it's current stage is more apt to "corrupt the data". I mean, god, can you imagine the social hell that would ensue if we suddenly started bringing people back from that state and they all have permanent mental illness? That's a disaster scenario for all parties involved. So even when they do reach the current technological level, there will be tons of social and political issues surrounding these events.

However I look forward to a time when that is not the case, particularly for long-distance space travel. (Although I really do feel that full-immersion psychedelic VR "false-life illusions", particularly with AI-assisted computer programing of virtual environments and physical sensory augmentation, will take precedence to most people vs. risking their lives in the cold dead void of space.)


I do admire how some individuals like yourself are motivated by the fact of their impending death and presumably eternal oblivion, to "solve the problem" so to speak, and I'm interested in seeing if it can be done, but I'm much more interested in reversing aging. What do you think about that?

Also, despite your protestations I will always remain optimistic about a future form of technology that allows for consciousness uploading and, preferably, into new organic bodies, as well as machines and spacecraft.

[Dent]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

I guess I think of it like I would a clone

I agree, but that's how I think of my future self waking up in the morning. There is no enduring metaphysical ego, when you bang your head you're not the same person. My guess is that the first people revived will be very imperfect, maybe equivalent to a hundred bangs on the head.
good enough technology should be able to reverse the damage caused by our primitive vitrification. And in principle we should be able to perfectly recreate a brain as it was at any instant of time.
I agree with your concerns regarding mental illness/bringing something back that will suffer.

I don't think anyone will be revived as they are currently, it would be cruel.

Re : risk taking in the future when you live a bazillion years, driving a car and walking across a street will be seen as the equivalent of using yourself as sharkbait.

Risk, Immortality, and the Terrifying Pulpit Rock - YouTube

Risk, Immortality, and the Terrifying Pulpit Rock - YouTube

I'm not motivated by my impending doom, i'm an eternalist and it's quite possible that our worst (and best) experiences exist perpetually. If possible I would like to make these experiences blissful, and if that means shedding the "old me" to become something else then so be it.

I'm not going to be signing up for cryonics, but for those (with a false theory of identity lawl) that want to live forever it should be available.

No one wants to be cryopreserved over age reversal if possible, I don't think anyone over the age of x will reap the benefits of age reversal, and that x could include ourselves. we need a twin track approach to accommodate for everyone.

We need a thread dedicated to life extension, and another for pills and potions.
I'm all for super longevity, it's one of the three main strands of transhumanism just as long as we aren't prolonging suffering.
I sometimes give an example of a person on a demon planet being tortured for a really long time, a lot of transhumanists who focus on longevity seem blind to the fact that hedonic tone is what matters and that's why I think it's important to stress super well-being.

Have you looked into the work of biogerontologist Aubrey De Grey? I'll explain what he wants to do via diagram, I think you'll find it interesting.


I think we will be able to put our minds into other organic bodies/spaceships/anything but it isn't going to be like anything at all without quantum mind binding.

back in 30

[Dent]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

Also, despite your protestations I will always remain optimistic about a future form of technology that allows for consciousness uploading and, preferably, into new organic bodies, as well as machines and spacecraft.

If I get enough of these chessboards together I can perform any computation that a digital computer can. I want to upload my mind into a bunch of chessboard logic gates, how many will I need?

what happens if the chessboard is nested in a computer?


why do so many people talk about computers turning on but not any other form of logic gate? what about a super duper complexity emergent abacus.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by Dent

why do so many people talk about computers turning on but not any other form of logic gate? what about a super duper complexity emergent abacus.

Because you are communicating with laymen. When communicating with a lay-audience it has to be much more of a back-and-forth question-and-answer Teacher/Student relationship, in order that you can educate us laymen to the level of understanding you need them to be at to have a proper discussion about logic gates and the fundamental difference between Nature-generated consciousness and Man-generated consciousness (something I am very interested in learning).

You seem to take this for granted but as far as I am concerned it is not a closed subject, and if it was, you would be defending it a lot less I think (think defending evolution vs. just writing someone off as not understanding it).

I think you intimidate people from interacting with you about this because it's more of a "versus" rather than trying to reach a mutual agreement. I think this mindset extends to a large portion of our global culture also.

[Dent]

How can a pack of discrete, membrane-bound, essentially classical neurons be anything other than discrete pixels of classical “mind-dust"?

Replace neuron with anything else, you only have billiard balls of micro experiences. No matter how complex or integrated your classically parallel connectionist system is - there is no unity of consciousness
Only an aggregate.


No story of functional connectivity explains how elementary classical “pixels” of experience could combine to generate perceptual objects populating unified world-simulations run by a unitary subject of experience.


what makes us different? binding.
“local” phenomenal binding (individual perceptual objects) or “global” phenomenal binding (the fleeting unity of perception and the synchronous unity of the self)

what could be the mechanism of binding? how about a nonclassical explanation? this is for another thread.

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

Because you are communicating with laymen. When communicating with a lay-audience it has to be much more of a back-and-forth question-and-answer Teacher/Student relationship, in order that you can educate us laymen to the level of understanding you need them to be at to have a proper discussion about logic gates and the fundamental difference between Nature-generated consciousness and Man-generated consciousness (something I am very interested in learning).

You seem to take this for granted but as far as I am concerned it is not a closed subject, and if it was, you would be defending it a lot less I think (think defending evolution vs. just writing someone off as not understanding it).

I think you intimidate people from interacting with you about this because it's more of a "versus" rather than trying to reach a mutual agreement. I think this mindset extends to a large portion of our global culture also.

Kant's View of the Mind and Consciousness of Self (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

[Dent]

Why Cryonics Makes Sense - Wait But Why

[Dent]

https://vimeo.com/144333900
works in this short story

[Dent]

Terminally ill teen won historic ruling to preserve body - BBC News

Fantastic to see this in the news.
You're right Blonde, it's an open question (Just like the existence of other minds). I've seen or heard nothing to show that cryonics in humans or non-humans is impossible though.

You should all sign up for cryonics asap, God isn't going to be pissed off at you for doing so.

[Saint DH]

I'm gonna cyro freeze mah dick in yo ass

No homo