I propose that Reagan wasn't as cool as FC thinks he was.

[DJ FC]

I hate being the smartest conservative I know. Am I really that thick? Why is it so obvious to me yet so many of my peers ardently disagree? The only people I have on my side are those greatly beyond my rank - and they are probably merely self-centered assholes.

I love what Ronald Reagan stood for - but everybody else seems to "get it." and disagree.

[f3lix]

What do you believe he stood for?

[angry pancake]

First, I'm not sure what you mean by conservative. You may be surprised that you probably don't meet a lot of "conservatives" definition of conservative. Regan is the first president that I was old enough to fully understand when he was running against Carter. It's hard for some of alive then to forget the hostage situation in Iran. That was 9-11 before 9-11 to a country and Regan was hailed as a hero. Regan promised to go kick mid east ass, take names, and free hostages on day one of taking office. The fucker traded arms for hostages--illegally. Then funded the contras --illegally. A lot of people should have gone to jail for that. Regan also spent tons on stupid projects like Star Wars and the super collider. Regan fucked up on a regular basis. But it's Regan's policy this or that getting romanticized these days. Regan was good at giving sound bites and feel good parables. A lot of people liked that following Vietnam, watergate, and Carter. But I'm honestly puzzled why those who want to put him on mount rushmoor, probably wouldn't vote for him today.

Anyway, in my case, I think a lot of regan worship is revisionist. A lot of fucked up shut happened because of him. But these aren't talked about today. His policies are. Not his acts. I seriously doubt regan could win the republican nomination today. Somebody would dig up one of his pro union or pro labor speeches on YouTube. Doesnt hate his gay kid enough, doesn't love guns enough, his calling Nancy "mommy" jibberish, etc.

I remember Regan, specially the second term when he was showing altzheimers/dementia. I didn't read about him or learn from other sources. That's why I say he wasn't that great. But, next to Carter and W., he looks fantastic to me.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by DJ FC

I hate being the smartest conservative I know. Am I really that thick? Why is it so obvious to me yet so many of my peers ardently disagree? The only people I have on my side are those greatly beyond my rank - and they are probably merely self-centered assholes.

I love what Ronald Reagan stood for - but everybody else seems to "get it." and disagree.

It's more that you are libertarian more than straight conservative, I think anyway.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by angry pancake

The fucker traded arms for hostages--illegally. Then funded the contras --illegally. A lot of people should have gone to jail for that.

I always see this as not a big deal; or even a good decision, maybe just because I wasn't self aware at the time.

The arms were to help ignite the Iraq-Iran war, a neutral for us at worse. The money to the Contras was to the better of 2 unsavory groups. If anything it showed that the strong anti-drug bullshit is just a very strong front put on by those in favor of it.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by angry pancake

Regan sucked and all of you are too young to remember.

Maybe you are too old; you were in your angsty pancake years perhaps.

[angry pancake]

Originally Posted by Beebs

I always see this as not a big deal; or even a good decision, maybe just because I wasn't self aware at the time.

The arms were to help ignite the Iraq-Iran war, a neutral for us at worse. The money to the Contras was to the better of 2 unsavory groups. If anything it showed that the strong anti-drug bullshit is just a very strong front put on by those in favor of it.

Illegal as fuck and covered up. The hostage release was sold as Iran and soviet union fearing military action by the US. I watched it on TV when it happened.

For the record I would have voted for Regan twice. The alternatives were Carter and the Mondale. I didn't sour on Regan until much later.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by angry pancake

Illegal as fuck and covered up. The hostage release was sold as Iran and soviet union fearing military action by the US. I watched it on TV when it happened.

For the record I would have voted for Regan twice. The alternatives were Carter and the Mondale. I didn't sour on Regan until much later.

I'm not arguing legality; I'm arguing actual right and wrong, and personally I don't see how it was so wrong.

I don't care that it was against an embargo; a trade of weapons for lives is justifiable at the very least.

I also have no problem with funding the Contras, they were certainly the lesser of the two evils compared to the Sandinistas.

[Ugly Bastard]

"The worst thing Ronald Reagan did was to make the denial of compassion respectable."

Great quote from a great documentary:

‪The Century Of The Self-Full Length Documentary‬‏ - YouTube

‪The Century Of The Self-Full Length Documentary‬‏ - YouTube

(It's four 1-hour parts if you want to give it a try. Whole thing is worth watching but I'd say if you can't muster it then watch the last hour as that part covers the most modern history of the phenomenon discussed).

"People no longer saw themselves as part of a group, but instead as individuals who could demand things from their government in exchange for paying taxes."

[DJ FC]

I believe in the Individual.

[Ugly Bastard]

I think most of us have picked up on that.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by angry pancake

Regan also spent tons on stupid projects like...the super collider.

Easy cowboy.

[DDTempest]

The only problem with the super-collider is that it wasn't super enough.

[Mr. Blonde]

Cantor refuses to admit Reagan raised taxes | The Raw Story

[Repugnant Abomination]

[DJ FC]

Oh Jesus Christ how many times do we have to re-hash that the tax burden on the economy was lower after Reagan than before. This article pisses me off because it's being all douchy in it's accusations when not only is the topic debatable, I would say they're simply wrong - mathematically.

[Repugnant Abomination]

The point, is that while Reagan did lower taxes overall, there were instances of him raising taxes in the spirit of compromise when necessary.

Coincidentally, Reagan added a huge amount to the deficit by the time he left office precisely because he cut taxes and increased spending. This is called deficit spending, and it's something the Republicans are loathe to admit.

[Johnny Richter]

You do realize that a president cannot raise taxes, right? That is the responsibility of congress. The president can sign or veto the bill, but that is the limit to his power. Reagan did agree to raise taxes in the spirit of compromise with the democrat congress. It is my understanding that there was an agreement between Reagan and the speaker of the house that for every additional dollar of government revenue, spending would be cut by twice as much. Unfortunately the speaker never intended to follow through on this compromise and spending actually increased.

We've beaten this horse to death many, many times.

[Repugnant Abomination]

I think the problem is that Republicans today have sort of deified Reagan to the point that not even Reagan can live up to the mythology they've created. If you look at some of the things he did, you realize he wouldn't meet the "purity" requirements the GOP has right now.

It can be misleading without proper context, though.

[DJ FC]

The point is that this article, in a very douchy way, accuses a man of not believing something which isn't true. Or is only true if you strip away all context.

[Mr. Blonde]

I propose we have laws against douchery.

[Johnny Richter]

If we did then you'd be in jail! haha