NubDep Compilation

[Ugly Bastard]

I almost forgot...

Originally posted by Pliedes:
Please quote where either of us said that their submissions were not good enough.

Originally posted by Pliedes:
I just know [silver and cold] could put more effort into it and find better songs.

It's funny watching you contradict yourself this much...

_______

Pliedes, you're a pretty willful person, and I can tell this is going to be one of those things where you will never stop replying to my messages until I admit that you're right...which just isn't going to happen. So in the interest of my time and energy, I'm going to go ahead and stop, I've jacked this thread up enough.

I appreciate you, Titan, and Chuck for working hard to put these comps together. It just bothers me that you guys criticize people's selections, that's all. The way I see it, if you don't like the songs they chose, then don't ask us to pick songs for a NubDep, just get together amongst yourselves and pick 15 songs for us since some of our picks do not seem to be good enough for you guys. That's all I was/am trying to say...

G'day mates.

-Ugly Bastard

[ December 04, 2003, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

[StDx]

UB-1
Titledes-0

[Titan]

Like I said:

Originally posted by Titan:
I'm not going to fucking waste my time organizing these if people don't even care to give it more than a couple seconds of thought.

[Me Gustan Nalgas]

Back to the suggestions:

Either
Couting Crows - Amy Hit the Atmosphere
or
Speedway
or
Colorblind

All three come from perhaps the best depressing album of all time... This Desert Life. Those of you who are Crows fans out ther will be delighted to hear of their greatest hits which was released only last week... freakin AMAZING.

[Pliedes]

In response to previous comments:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
So Pliedes, you honestly expect me to conclusively prove that silver and cold's song makes her depressed before I say that it does? Got'chya...(go ahead and tell me how you would go about doing that...is there a depression-meter out there I can put her on or something?)

That, sir, is exactly the point we were trying to make. Your argument had no logical foundation. Avoid making such statements in the future.

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pliedes:
Please quote where either of us said that their submissions were not good enough.

Originally posted by Pliedes:
I just know [silver and cold] could put more effort into it and find better songs.

It's funny watching you contradict yourself this much...
</font>[/quote]Are you language skills completely askew? I asked where I said they were NOT GOOD ENOUGH, and you quoted someplace where I said COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER. Those are not at all the same things. My challenge still stands, quote where I said they were not good enough.

If you still have a hard time understanding, which you obviously do, I’ll quote what I did say.

Originally posted by Pliedes:
It's not that you have horrid suggestions, I just know you could put more effort into it and find better songs.

Do you need it spelled out any more for you? In school, you can get a 65% in a class, and pass (doing well enough, to say) but not do as well as you could have (say a grade of 80%). This is a simple example, outside example of the situation at hand. Does that help?

Note: The above also covers UB’s second of three posts where he quotes my posts to “show where I stated their submissions were not good enough.” If more is needed, I will divulge.

--------------------------------------------------------

Now onto Ugly’s points of contention:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
You did a fine job reading through all of my posts, ignoring the five or six times I slapped you in the face, picking my weakest arguements, and replying to those. Good job daring mighty things there.

First, personal attacks impress no one but the most dim witted reader and do nothing for your argument except hurt your credibility. Since you say I am avoiding your “stronger” points, I will address them each individually.

Point One:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
I just think it's a little excessive trying to get people to change their picks. If their picks are that worthless to you, then why even ask them to submit an entry? Why not just make a comp of all of the songs that you think are good songs for a Dep Comp? That's the point I'm trying to make...

“I just think it's a little excessive trying to get people to change their picks.”
-This is simply an opinion, it has no weight in the debate at hand.
“If their picks are that worthless to you, then why even ask them to submit an entry?”
-If your logic is correct here, then by asking them to submit an entry with knowledge of a possible distaste, we affirm the position that their picks are not worthless. I furthermore state that we do not see their picks as having no value, this is apparent by the time and effort which goes into getting their submissions.
“ Why not just make a comp of all of the songs that you think are good songs for a Dep Comp?”
-As previously mentioned, we seek the different styles and tastes of all members in order to make it a nubblies comp, not a Pliedes comp. That does not mean that any objective value is thrown aside in making them though. The objective value of the submissions is where the crux of our issue lies, and I will more thoroughly address it at the end.
“That's the point I'm trying to make”
-See above comments.

Point Two:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Not all of us spend days polishing our selection for these comps...in fact, most of us don't.

I popped off Elliot Smith's "Miss Misery" without giving a second's thought...if I had given it some thought, I probably would've come up with something that depresses me more.

Silver and Cold/Malibu did the same thing...bash my pick if you're going to bash their's...we both chose our song without thinking for much more than a couple seconds.

“Not all of us spend days polishing our selection for these comps...in fact, most of us don't.”
-Agreed.
“I popped off Elliot Smith's "Miss Misery" without giving a second's thought...if I had given it some thought, I probably would've come up with something that depresses me more.”
-All you’ve shown here is your lack of effort in making this comp the best it can be. This is why Titan doesn’t want to waste his time organizing these if this is the effort which all others will put in.
“Silver and Cold/Malibu did the same thing...bash my pick if you're going to bash their's...we both chose our song without thinking for much more than a couple seconds.”
-I will bash your lack of effort. Shame on you. But now we again get to the underlying issue at hand. The difference between your selections was that your pick was a very good pick. Again, objective value. We’ll visit this more at the end of the post.

Point Three:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Are you suggesting that malibu and silver and cold purposely chose songs that do not make them depressed just to spite you?

-This must first be considered within the context it was stated, so we’ll revisit.
--After Titan states that an extreme example of a bad pick would have bothered UB, he gives an interpretation of it as Malibu and S&C intentionally picked the bad song and then slamming such a situation.
--We see that Ugly’s situation may prove true, but he didn’t take Titan’s initial statement correctly. Titan was speaking about the value of the songs, and UB was speaking of the reasoning for picking a song justifying it. Again, the crux of the issue is at dispute.

Point Four:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
It's not a platinum-hopeful album, it's a friendly website-compilation.

-This seems to be you waving the flag of mediocrity. Just because it’s not going to be sold to millions doesn’t mean it can’t be good. As a teacher once told me once “If you’re not going to do it well, don’t do it at all.” Obviously we are making a comp, and so we should at least put a reasonable amount of effort into making it good.

Point Five:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
You guys take this shit way too seriously...it's just a comp. I would rather listen to the song that silver and cold chose as her Dep song, than listen to some song that silver and cold was pressured into picking by pliedes, but really doesn't depress her at all.

“You guys take this shit way too seriously...it's just a comp.”
-Minimalizing the situation and saying I’m “too serious” does nothing for your arguments.
“I would rather listen to the song that silver and cold chose as her Dep song, than listen to some song that silver and cold was pressured into picking by pliedes, but really doesn't depress her at all.”
-As you stated earlier (see first quote of post) you cannot actually prove whether the song depresses her or not. Regardless, a song which is genuinely depressing to one person in no way automatically equates it to a great comp selection.

Point Six:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Who the fuck do you think you guys are? This comp was to be songs that make each individual depressed, so they put down the songs that make them depressed.

Sure they may not be songs that depress you, but they depress malibu and silver and cold respectively, so fuck off.

“Who the fuck do you think you guys are”
-Rhetorical question, but if you must, Titan and Pliedes.
“This comp was to be songs that make each individual depressed, so they put down the songs that make them depressed.”
-Actually, sir, nowhere does it state that the single requirement is that it causes individual depression. Now you could see it as implied because each person gets an individual submission which is their call alone, but the one thing we are going for a good comp (though you aren’t, you are content with mediocrity).
“Sure they may not be songs that depress you, but they depress malibu and silver and cold respectively, so fuck off.”
-Again, that does not automatically make them great suggestions. It does mean that they depress their respective suggestor, which does allude to their possible depressing nature, but it in no way in an absolute indicator of being a good suggestion.

All six points have been covered, now the only dispute lies at what I called the “crux of our issue”.

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Why don't you humor me with some of your rambling bullshit replies to those comments.

Consider yourself humored.

--------------------------------------------------------

In response to UB’s post three of three:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Pliedes, you're a pretty willful person,

Good use of wording there. Synonyms include: headstrong, stubborn, determined.
I take such as a compliment.

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
and I can tell this is going to be one of those things where you will never stop replying to my messages until I admit that you're right...

Actually, until you see the error in your thinking. Your position is passionate and admirable, but not logically founded.

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
which just isn't going to happen.

Here you admit one of two things: (1)You are not wrong (which I will show you are), or (2)You simply will not give up, even when proven wrong (which is inherently stupid).
I hope you are simply convinced of the first, instead of arrogant in the second.

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
It just bothers me that you guys criticize people's selections, that's all.

Ok. So? It bothers me that you have a hard time comprehending arguments and basing yours in something other than opinion. Both what bothers us really isn’t the real issue.

--------------------------------------------------------

Ah, and now the issue at hand…

The argument is very simple. I’m going to keep it specific to our situation.
There is some objective value to song choices.
Now, first and foremost realize that I am not saying they are entirely objective, and there are many levels on which this is not the case, but I am acknowledging the undeniable objective aspect.

Example: If Titan suggested the Macarena for his NubDep, it is very clear that it is not a good choice for the album. Sure, it may genuinely be depressing to him, but it a) does not sound depressing, b) the lyrics are not depressing, and c) outside of abnormal circumstances would most likely be found not depressing by a test group. But it is depressing to him. Again though, remember that I said they are not completely objective, but there is a reasonable extent of objectivity by which we can filter songs. It’s the same as if someone would have chosen “I fucking hate you” by Godsmack as their choice for NubLove. The example, as absurd as it is, shows the point to be made.
[Note: I do not see the above process as a litmus test for song selection, merely a demonstration to analyze the example.]

Much of your argument stems from the notion that we are being unfair, overly judgmental, or critical where we have no place; to that I say, it is a fine line we walk, but that is no excuse to strive for the greatest result possible. You might not agree that selections are overwhelmingly objective, but it is within that reasonable area which we attempt to maximize the comp.

Put simply: By acknowledging that there is indeed such a thing as a bad choice, we affirm that there is at least some objective value to submissions.

I realize this could split into a theoretical discussion about absolution/relativity as a whole, but let’s try to keep it to the situation at hand for the time being.

UB, I look forward to an intelligent response, and remember ad hominem attacks do not work.

Edited for formatting.

[ December 04, 2003, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Pliedes ]

[malibu]

Too bad I really don't think UB is going to take the time to read that post. Okay. You say UB has no proof that silver's song depresses her which is stupid... why the hell would she post a song that didn't depress her and who are you to say you think it doesn't, or that you think we didn't take time to make our picks. I mean the point is that you just assumed and any normal person would assume that if a member posts a song in the thread that the song truly does depress them. Next, I really don't see how my entry didn't "have the mood and lyrics of depression." I'm sorry, I forgot you're god and what you say goes just because you decided to start these compilations. Grow up seriously. Let people be themselves and make their pics. If you didn't want people's opinions, you shouldn't have asked for them. Also, I did fucking take the time to make my pick. I went through all the songs I could think of, the songs I had on CDs, and the songs I had on the computer and narrowed it down to a few, and then listened to each one and picked the one I felt best. I like Dead Poetic and that song is depressing to me and alot of people I know would also consider it depressing. For fuckssake, I think Silver and I should be allowed to make our picks just like everyone else did. Why don't you start questioning whether those songs depress the people who listed them. I mean that's just as fair. I believe that my song obviously has a depressing mood and let's see what the lyrics say shall we kiddies?
***"And If I could teach the world to be..
I’d teach them all to be something just like me.
Frustrated, bitter, depressing.
Perfect – As if my wings were like yours
But I’m falling down.And if you could hold your tongue long enough..You’d see that all I am is love, but I don’t like me.I despise me.
Perfect – As if my wings were like yours
But I’m falling down.
Perfect – As if my wings were like yours
But I’m falling down.
It’s a disease they’ll never have a cure for.
You’re the only way to dry my eyes.
It’s a disease, they’ll never have a cure.
But I’m the on whose wrong. I’m the one who cries.
It’s a disease, they’ll never have a cure for.
It’s a disease, they’ll never have a cure.
But I’m the on whose wrong. I’m the one who cries.
I cry – I despise me.***
So if this isn't depressing enough for you, I don't know what the hell is, would you like me to put the fucking funeral march on here or what. Hell I don't know parts of that song are so damn cheery, you'd probably think that wasn't good enough either. And honestly the Billy Talent song is also very depressing. Have you ever been the kid that used to go hide in the bathroom? I have... I used to cry in the bathroom everyday when I was in 6th grade because I was constantly getting made fun of. So yes, it is depressing. Sorry the mood isn't perfect for you. I think the mood is depressing too. So when you're done bitching about how our entries aren't up to your standards, let me know. I've said all I've got to say and if you want to post back, I'm game.

[ProfessorNumber]

Black Lab - She Loves Me 4:32

Pliedes, I'll be honest, I started reading your 3 page rebuttal, and decided I would rather be drinking my own puke. No offense, though.

[ December 04, 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: ProfessorNumber ]

[Fruitacious B]

Hardcore, whilst deeply depressing and usually well constructed lyrically, is not as musically sound for the common depressed mood. Yes, the lyrics are one of the utmost factors in a depressing song. However, one could argue that Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" is just as depressing, even though it lacks vocal accompaniment.

Which compilation would be more susseptable for hardcore music, NubHate or NubDep?

While some will probably argue that both are equally just as capable of reasonably housing a hardcore song. When you're pissed you yell at people, your heart rate increases, much like the two key elements of hardcore, screaming and deep fast beats. Where as a more acoustic, or slower song, with melodic, heartfelt singing and lyrics would closer relate to a person in despair, crying, longing for something lost or never had. While that is probably just an overly emo look into the situation, it seems valid enough in itself.

NubLove, while filled with excellent suggestions, would, as a lot would probably agree, thrown off a bit by the addition of Poison the Well's "Nerdy". Yes, the lyrics are great, but that's not quite the song that most would play when at a wedding reception, or on a romantic date, or to even have as one another's "song".

Finally, with as much as people tend to enjoy mediocrity and haste in their themed musical compilations. Maybe a few of the more "closed minded" of us should put together what would be a more fitting compilation. Anyone up for it?

[rla128]

Denison Witmer - Broken 3:19

[Saint DH]

hmmm...well how about...

The Vines - Homesick (4:55)

[StabMaster Arson]

I gotta agree with Ugly and Malibu.

[ December 04, 2003, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: StabMaster Arson ]

[AcTivE]

Yo La Tengo - Don't Have to Be So Sad

let me know if you want something different

if you can't find it, i'm on soulseek, username: btlowrance

[bert]

pliedes, i think you're bein pretty fuckin gay about this...I choose Cher-Song For The Lonley, but if that's not good enough for you, then go suck a dick.

[AcTivE]

bert: did someone fix your internet problem ?

...i think you we know each other

[ December 05, 2003, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

[tonguegina]

Glad to see a post from you AcTivE. It's been a while.

[Pliedes]

Malibu, you obviously didn't take the time to read my post. I in no way said the song wasn't depressing, or a bad choice; I simply said it could be better. I agree with most of the beginning of your post. I'd be glad to discuss with you if you would actually respond to the specific points I was making.

Active, your return excites me, as does your knowledge of "Yo La Tengo".

And something fun I ran across...
"Flattery makes friends, truth enemies." — Spanish proverb

[ December 05, 2003, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: Pliedes ]

[AcTivE]

thank you.

yes it has. i've been keeping myself busy with a variety of things... i've found that it is possible to to spend time constructively (and even have fun), instead of getting fucked up all the time--then posting messages of jibberish in the forums (if you noticed, that's all i really ever did).

thought i'd check it out real quick, and saw this thread.

probably will be all for a while...

[Pliedes]

Glad to hear you're doing well.

Do you have an icq or aim which you can be reached at? If so, pm me.

[AcTivE]

icq: 18780743, aim: BlueOpticLLC

I'm going to bed now though...

sucked today, woke up at 12:45. classes started at 8:00...i nevertheless missed 4. one which required me turning in a term paper.

not really relating to yo la tengo, but maybe band that you haven't heard of...thats good

broken social scene - you forgot it in people

is latest favorite cd now. on soulseek if you want any of em...

[ December 05, 2003, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

[silver and cold]

Okay, I was really hoping I wouldn't have to explain this shit to you kids, BUT YES THE SONG DOES DEPRESS ME. It brings up some stuff that happened in 7th and 8th grade when I was ditched by ALL my friends and I did use to want to kill myself, and I did feel all alone. So Fuck IT!
That song does make me sad, it describes my childhood...I had no freinds! happy now! I didnt plan on burdening you people with my sob-stories but when you act like that songs not good enough? I dont care if the tunes not depressing the lyrics are! and they mean something to me..so I really dont think I'm gonna change it..
and NO it was not a "oh as soon as i read this i want this song" kinda thing, I actually thought of others, but this fits for ME better and since its MY CHOICE..I chose it [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Fruitacious B]

Fine then, I'll be the douchebag that comes out and blatantly says it. This comp is going to be pure shit if it keeps going in this new direction that it has, and some of the songs do in fact blow huge monkey balls, not as songs, but as songs for a compilation based on depression. Boo hoo, sob sob. Yes, the song that you (more than one of you) recommended might be depressing to you and you only. I find the song "Tiny Dancer" by Elton John, or "I Died In Your Arms Tonight" by Cutting Crew to be more depressing songs than the one I ended up recommending. The two previously mentioned songs are more love songs than depressing sad songs, but based on the circumstances for which I remember those songs, I find them to be more depressing than any dashboard song or sappy, depressing, fucking acoustic song. I recommended a sappy, depressing, fucking acoustic song because those songs are more depressing as songs themselves and I appreciate them more for fitting in to the flow in that way. No one gives a flying shit about what I've gone through or why I think I could justify putting tiny dancer as my song, not a single person. No one would hear that song and say, "shit, fruit must've gone through some tough shit." They'd probably skip right over it because it wouldn't make very much sense in a god damn depressing compilation.

"I'll slice my wrists and bleed on your freshly dug grave as I weep over the one thing that you never had", (pulled directly from my ass) sounds pretty fucking depressing to me, and depending on how that line were to be sung, that could be A) a very depressing song played to the sounds of one or two acoustic guitars (and/or piano) with melodic and easy to understand singing or B) an inaudible fit of screaming played to screeching rhythm changes and flying straightedge kicks. If B were the final answer, those lyrics wouldn't fit into a depressing compilation. Now if A were the answer, then you'd have an overall depressing song that could fit in better to the flow of the other songs on the compilation as well as fit in with the expectations of the person listening.

I know that I sound harsh, but because a song might remind you of when you wanted to kill yourself doesn't mean that it would still fit in well. Hell I fucking listened to Lauryn Fucking Hill when I wanted to kill myself in seventh grade and all of my so-called friends ditched me. I can't keep that kind of emotional attachment to it though. If I did, it'd be as if I expect it to happen again, and I could use "well this isn't the first time I've had this happen" as a god damn excuse. Songs shouldn't remind you of times that you wanted to kill yourself. The events and people that caused them to happen should be the only things that remind you of that, or else you haven't totally moved on and you need to get some god damn professional help. As with the three songs I mentioned that made me more depressed than anything else; I didn't listen to those during the time thereafter the events that ripped me in half, I avoided them so that I wouldn't have to feel that pain again. I listened to songs that help me cope with it instead of remind me of how bad it hurt. I already knew how it felt, I just wanted to hear something that could as closely as possible represent what I needed to hear to get over it.

Jesus H. Christ I'm way too pissed, I probably shouldn't even post this. People will hate me now. Fuck it.

[ December 06, 2003, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: Fruitacious B ]

[Pliedes]

Silver&Cold, you obviously did not read my post at all. I, nor anyone else, has denied that your song may be depressing to you, but it has been objected to on other grounds. Please go back and read my post from the part entitled "Ah, and now the issue at hand…". Feel free to comment on that subject so that fruitful discussion may ensue.

[Fruitacious B]

Originally posted by Pliedes:
...so that fruitful discussion may ensue.

Haha, I get it. Fruitful discussion

[silver and cold]

Pliedes, I do understand what your saying about the macarana, but this song does have sad and depressing lyrics...and its not all that upbeat..No my song may not sound like Dashboard or some of the soft sad stuff, but I REALLY dont listen to much of that, so I wouldnt know a good one to want to chose one, and I'm not using something some one else suggested, because their songs make them depressed not me, and I'm not asking for people to want it on there, because I'm sure by the end. There will be songs I dont like on there, but I wont have to listen to them, its called a forward button. I dont want to change my song either.So you can prove many points but I still want the same song, and I may understand those points, and agree with you, but I still like my song.

[Fruitacious B]

Nonetheless, like I said....

This comp is going to be pure shit if it keeps going in this new direction that it has, and some of the songs do in fact blow huge monkey balls