Mind blowingly sureal

[BigDongedHoe]

Being religious and having belief in God is not a bad thing if you believe in it because you yourself believe in it. Not because you believe in it because somebody told you that you should or because you've had it crammed down your throat. True Christians and believers show and the ones that don't do to. I'll put your sister in that category man i'm sorry about everything, there are good religious people that are reasonable.

[Mr. Blonde]

religion = gay.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by BigDongedHoe

Being religious and having belief in God is not a bad thing if you believe in it because you yourself believe in it. Not because you believe in it because somebody told you that you should or because you've had it crammed down your throat. True Christians and believers show and the ones that don't do to. I'll put your sister in that category man i'm sorry about everything, there are good religious people that are reasonable.

I have a real problem with religion and this kind of thinking. It's nothing personal against you, but there it is. Here's why...

...There are two kinds of religious people - balls to the wall where it permeates everything, or sleep walking, where you just kind of accept it because you don't want to think very hard about it. I'm not sure which is worse. On the one hand I respect the balls to the wall people like my sister, because at least they fucking LIVE what they believe, but on the other hand people who take religion that literally expose it for how ridiculous it is. The sleep walkers, while not flaunting their stupidity, are bad because they don't even think about it! They reflect a kind of intellectual bankruptcy that's prevalent today. I don't see how you can be a "moderate" believer, either you fucking believe all the way, or you just sorta follow the crowd. People in the middle are the biggest joke of all - like being neutral in a time of great conflict - not fully invested or withdrawn.

BDH, would you explain your religious believes to us, please? I know it's a somewhat confrontational environment, and you're out numbered quite a bit, but I'd still like to read them. As Christians are concerned with saving souls, I am concerned with saving minds.

[Mr. Blonde]

the thing about the sleepwalkers is that i personally believe deep down, a lot of them DON'T truly believe in it, but like you said, don't like to think about it, so they say they do because if they come off as atheists or agnostics (while i was being brought up i was raised to believe that atheists were pretty much the equivalent to a demon btw) because of social reasons and what people will think of them for not believing, so they claim religion but still don't really follow it. I agree with exactly what you're saying Repug.

[Ugly Bastard]

I disagree with that Blonde. "Sleepwalkers", as Repug called them, aren't so luke warm about their belief because, deep down, they don't really believe but are afraid of what people will think of them if they say they don't believe. They're luke warm because they gain nothing from their belief other than the comfort that they won't go to hell. It's a fear based thing, not a societal thing.

[Mr. Blonde]

but if that is true, most of these people should be well versed enough in the bible to know that they can't possibly think that the facade that they're putting on will get them into heaven and not hell...?

[Mr. Blonde]

Actual facebook status of one of my highschool friends [girl]: ________ is getting out of the DRINKING scene and back into the GOD scene...finally!!!




fucking ridiculous.

[BigDongedHoe]

Repug:
I'm actually not a Christian, I'm agnostic. In someways I'll characterize myself as a Free Thinker. I'm very accepting and open to all thoughts and hope to one day get out of this and eventually commit myself to a belief. I would be an atheist but the simple fact is I have some people in my life that I respect morally more than others that are in fact Christians. When I made the "real" comment these are people that I truly see their conviction for their belief and in all ways theres some sense of a truth about them. They believe it because they believe it because they believe it, get the point?

My brother is a great example of somebody who changed his life around and has some pretty amazing testimony to go with it. I know people will say "well he was extreme into this therefore he's now channeling that into another form of extreme" but thats not the case. You can see his impulses, mannorisms, etc. did not change but the way he went about life and the way he lives for God is evident. Frankly to me it's pretty amazing, maybe why I still consider that there could in fact be a God. I'm just not simply going to sit here and profess that I know God and have a personal relationship with him when in fact I don't. If I'm going to believe in something its not because somebody told me I should, or socially people around me are doing the same thing. I'm going to believe because I do believe from my own conviction, and those in my opinion are the people that show as true born again Christians.

Repug do not take this the wrong way but I couldn't disagree with the statement about your sister more. What your sister is doing isn't conviction, God would not condone speaking in tongues' aloud and doing some of the things described in your original post. she's doing those things because as mentioned she goes to a college where she is taught this and where it is socially the norm. People around her do it therefore if she doesn't she would be the black sheep. As I said before people that do things because of conviction show and people that do them because they are brainwashed do as well.

I'd also throw another category of people that claim to believe in God simply because it's the socially "acceptable" thing to do. Not many people claim to be an atheist, why? Because its such a harsh word and because its not socially acceptable. Many people claim to be a Christian because they were raised that way, or it gives them a sense of self content. Those people show through as well and in my opinion really don't have conviction to do things through Christ.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Having moral respect for someone shouldn't ever be confused with intellectual respect. A Christian might live their life in an admiral way, but we're not evaluating them on their actions, but their beliefs. The reason why someone does something is often more important than the thing they are doing.

I'm sure your brother is a great guy, and I'm glad he turned his life around, but God had nothing to do with it - the idea of God did. You can argue that the end justifies the means, that even if God isn't real, so what, believing in him has done good things. While that may be true, you can't cherry pick the good without contemplating the bad - Christianity is intellectually narrowing - it teaches obedience and servitude - it condemns homosexuality (I challenge you to tell me why homosexuality is morally wrong without using religion as a source), and it contradicts well known scientific fact.

Personally though I'm with you, I consider myself agnostic. The fact of the matter is we can't know if there is a God or not, so both sides need to stop pretending like they do know. But I will say this, that I think it's painfully obvious that none of the religions, which really should be called mythologies, are true in regards to the super natural.

God can inspire people to do some of the greatest things we've ever seen, like devote their life to helping the poor, but God can also inspire bigotry and murder. What people need to realize is that they don't need God to do either.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

God can inspire people to do some the greatest things we've ever seen, like devote their life to helping the poor, but God can also inspire bigotry and murder. What people need to realize is that they don't need God to do either.

QFT

[Ugly Bastard]

Repug, (and everyone, really) there's a book I think you'd really like. It's actually a series of 3 books, but I've only read the first one so far: Conversations With God.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

(I challenge you to tell me why homosexuality is morally wrong without using religion as a source)

Nice. Great argument.

[DJ FC]

I challenge you to tell me why homosexuality is morally wrong without using religion as a source.

A LOT of people fucked to get you here. Thousands and thousands of them. You are a fucking machine, produced by the intense labors of your ancestors, the incredible amount of time they spent getting horny, fucking, and making little babies with the hope that they would carry on the family genes. The most basic reason humans are alive is to fuck and make more humans. And homosexuals not doing so should be a slap in the face of their ancestors.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by George W. Bush

A LOT of people fucked to get you here. Thousands and thousands of them. You are a fucking machine, produced by the intense labors of your ancestors, the incredible amount of time they spent getting horny, fucking, and making little babies with the hope that they would carry on the family genes. The most basic reason humans are alive is to fuck and make more humans. And homosexuals not doing so should be a slap in the face of their ancestors.

That's an evolutionary reason. Not a moral one.

EDIT: Plus, that's like saying not having children is immoral. People who choose not to get married, or end up not having kids, or physically CANNOT bear children, are they immoral? Your argument is flawed.

[Ugly Bastard]

And even if you did think it was a moral one, it's shitty and loaded with irrationality.

[BigDongedHoe]

I thought it was a pretty good argument

[Mr. Blonde]

probably because you think homosexuality is immoral.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

I got one:

Homos put other dude's cocks in their mouths.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by George W. Bush

A LOT of people fucked to get you here. Thousands and thousands of them. You are a fucking machine, produced by the intense labors of your ancestors, the incredible amount of time they spent getting horny, fucking, and making little babies with the hope that they would carry on the family genes. The most basic reason humans are alive is to fuck and make more humans. And homosexuals not doing so should be a slap in the face of their ancestors.

Perpetuating the species is not a moral obligation. People didn't fuck every generation due to social responsibility, they did it because it felt good, or from an economic standpoint they did it because children = free labor. Either way it's a poor argument and serves to highlight my point: Without citing religion there is nothing immoral about homosexuality.

Human sexuality is one of the most intricately complex parts of our neurology and I don't think it's healthy to repress it, as long as it isn't hurting anybody else. Hell, if you look at some of the more extreme fetishes out there homosexuality seems pretty bland.

[Mr. Blonde]

.

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

That's an evolutionary reason. Not a moral one.

EDIT: Plus, that's like saying not having children is immoral. People who choose not to get married, or end up not having kids, or physically CANNOT bear children, are they immoral? Your argument is flawed.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

What makes cheating on your girlfriend immoral?
What makes stealing immoral?
What makes having consensual sex with a minor immoral?
What makes killing people immoral?

Is the only reason these things immoral because they deviate from social norms?

If so then homosexuality is immoral because it deviates from social norm.

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Perpetuating the species is not a moral obligation. People didn't fuck every generation due to social responsibility, they did it because it felt good, or from an economic standpoint they did it because children = free labor. Either way it's a poor argument and serves to highlight my point: Without citing religion there is nothing immoral about homosexuality.

Human sexuality is one of the most intricately complex parts of our neurology and I don't think it's healthy to repress it, as long as it isn't hurting anybody else. Hell, if you look at some of the more extreme fetishes out there homosexuality seems pretty bland.

It's like this: I tried to come up with a reason why homosexuality could be immoral by non-religeous terms. I came up with a very witty tongue-in-cheek response, and everyone is too fucking stupid to read the sarcastic undertone, so I'll be serious.

All morals are evolutionary from the get-go, so why should homosexuality be any different? Not spreading your seed when you have every ability to do so; when you have every ability to raise another human being and support that human being fully (so that he/she will have the fullest opportunities in life) could be a bit selfish. And your ancestors worked so hard to get you these genes, and I'm sure they want them passed on.

It's not a super-good argument I know, but it's a non-religeous argument for how homosexuality could be immoral. Note: in my argument bi-sexuality is just fine so long as you are having and supporting children, and have the means (IE the ability to provide ample parental support, wealth, stability, etc.) to raise a child well with the opportunity for a good life.

[Beebs]

Yea, its the best argument available, but its still not a particuarly worthwhile one.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by THEINCREDIBLEdork

What makes cheating on your girlfriend immoral?
What makes stealing immoral?
What makes having consensual sex with a minor immoral?
What makes killing people immoral?

Is the only reason these things immoral because they deviate from social norms?

If so then homosexuality is immoral because it deviates from social norm.

That's pretty much it. Then again I'm a relativist.

[BigDongedHoe]

Actually I have no moral issues with homosexuality. I'm one of the people that are in belief that in most instances you are born gay or straight and of course there are some people that choose that lifestyle.

As far as asking the questions on morals I think we are born with a set of morals that are instilled in us from birth. Now if that were true then how could that not be the extended hand of some sort of God?

Read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis it is a pretty compelling book.