Expatriation

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

I like you Chad. Will be in Leicester Square area end of Sept. You near there?

Yep.

I just got a flat too, finally.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...6&ie=UTF8&z=16

That's where I'll live.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...-0.129584&z=16

That's Leicester Square

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...3&ie=UTF8&z=16

That's where I work.

[Repugnant Abomination]

I'm thinking...

Economy
Iraq
Stem cell research
Civil rights
Health care

[Heaven Can Wait]

Relations? *hugs*

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

I'm thinking...

Economy
Iraq
Stem cell research
Civil rights
Health care

How about:

Taxation
Trade
Jobs
Economic Freedom
Social Issues

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

I will be making the thread real shortly. Each will take turns picking an issue with a total of 4 issues, starting with repug.

But first I would like to discuss what the tone should be. Should we define this as the first official OST in ages with a political theme? Or should personal attacks be against the rules. I'm split, part of me would be entertained and nostalgic for some witty banter and a verbal thrashing, and the other part is afraid it might allow them to stray away from the real issues. But I could make rules to make them stay on task...

Thoughts?

[Repugnant Abomination]

I'd prefer to keep the personal attacks out of it. UB has already made it clear he has no respect for me, so it's almost redundant. Like you said, I think personal attacks will take away from talk on the issues. You said something along the lines of not being able to watch political talk shows for this very reason.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Since it's clear that I'm in the minority here, I would like to ask that everyone else stay on the sidelines. I want to debate UB, not all of you. If you want to help him you can send PM's or talk on aim or something, but leave it out of the thread, at least until the debate has finished.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

http://nubblies.net/forums/showthrea...870#post363870

[Mr. Blonde]

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Since it's clear that I'm in the minority here, I would like to ask that everyone else stay on the sidelines. I want to debate UB, not all of you. If you want to help him you can send PM's or talk on aim or something, but leave it out of the thread, at least until the debate has finished.

No.

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Here's my problem. You seem to base your entire argument on money, you greedy bastard. Social issues are more important to me. The war is important to me. The environment is important to me.

I can't wait until Obama wins. And if you don't like it, you and the rest of the cry babies can leave the country.

Here's my problem. You're a douche. Seriously. That said, the largest threat facing our country today is creeping socialism. Sadly, during economic slumps, all the fucking shit-heads cross America cry out for people like Obama, and his ridiculous socialistic rhetoric. Look at what happened during the great depression. FDR, at the cries from the fucking idiot liberals, opened the floodgates of socialism into America. If we as a country are willing to let socialism creep in during a period of relatively minor economic downturn, then our country truly is going down the shitter. The point is, Obama's ideas seem appealing in times when the economy is not doing so hot. They are short-sighted, and myopic, at best. If the founding fathers could see what America is becoming, their reaction would probably be worse than a nun's reaction to 2 girls, 1 cup.

[Repugnant Abomination]

I'd say the largest threat facing America today is the Republican party, which has been infiltrated by the evangelicals.

What you name calling meanie heads fail to recognize is that I'm not saying I agree with Obama on everything. But as mentioned, social issues are very important to me. You might think that's stupid. Fine. But I think allowing the conservative, war mongering Christian right to continue running things is even dumber.

[Mr. Blonde]

Is it just me, or is nobody taking into account that MAYBE, just MAYBE Obama is trying to appeal to what the majority of American voters are wanting to hear right now? I mean fuck, just because he's a jovial, change-pushing black guy doesn't mean he's any less of a politician. Thats what politicians do. They fucking APPEAL to you to get into office. Maybe i'm oversimplifying things, but I think you guys might be taking everything he is pushing a little too literal. Guy has to play the game to get votes, and without his change campaign and his economic proposals, I highly doubt he'd be standing where he is in the presidential races (aka: winning)

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

I'd say the largest threat facing America today is the Republican party, which has been infiltrated by the evangelicals.

What you name calling meanie heads fail to recognize is that I'm not saying I agree with Obama on everything. But as mentioned, social issues are very important to me. You might think that's stupid. Fine. But I think allowing the conservative, war mongering Christian right to continue running things is even dumber.

Do you want America to become a socialist/welfare-state? This isn't a rhetorical question -- I'm being completely serious.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by ProfessorNumber

Do you want America to become a socialist/welfare-state? This isn't a rhetorical question -- I'm being completely serious.

No.

I think Blonde might have a valid point, too.

But I really, really don't like how things are right now. I hate, absolutely hate the conservative right, and I want something different. Fiscally yes, I'm conservative. I prefer small government. But socially, on issues like gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, education, health care, etc...I am very liberal. Whether you want to admit it or not - hell, maybe you prefer it - but there is a culture war going on in America right now, and I'm sick and fucking tired of these conservatives with their religious foundations, turning this country into some Christian nation. That's the biggest thing that's at stake for me, personally. I don't want McCain appointing his conservative judges, denying us the benefits of stem cell research, and so on and so forth, like Bush did. They've set us back and I can't let them continue to.

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

Is it just me, or is nobody taking into account that MAYBE, just MAYBE Obama is trying to appeal to what the majority of American voters are wanting to hear right now? I mean fuck, just because he's a jovial, change-pushing black guy doesn't mean he's any less of a politician. Thats what politicians do. They fucking APPEAL to you to get into office. Maybe i'm oversimplifying things, but I think you guys might be taking everything he is pushing a little too literal. Guy has to play the game to get votes, and without his change campaign and his economic proposals, I highly doubt he'd be standing where he is in the presidential races (aka: winning)

Yes, I think we all understand the concept of the "median voter theory". Any intelligent politician is going to try to get as close to "the middle-of-the-road" stance without alienating his base constituents. Obama's flip-flopping, and contradictive standpoints are perfect evidence of this. Second, I think that any rational person can figure out that no matter what a president says with regards to fiscal policy, the actual outcome will reflect a different reality than promised. Nonetheless, would you rather vote for the guy who wants to raise taxes for the wealthy (socialism), or the guy who would rather cut spending (democracy and capitalism).


Next, I'd like to direct everyone's attention to this interesting article from CNN

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news...proposals_tpc/

If you look at the table displaying the projected tax changes, it becomes blatantly obvious just how socialistic Obama is. He wants to increase the taxes of the highest earners in America [making 2.9+ million per year] by $701,885. Holy fucking shit! Just look at this quote from the article:

"The net result: compared with their tax bill today, taxpayers on average would see their tax bill cut by nearly $160 under Obama's plan. That means their after-tax income would rise by 0.3%."

"The net result [McCain's plan]: compared with their tax bill today, taxpayers on average would see their tax bill cut by nearly $1,200. That means their after-tax income would rise by 2%"

Interesting, huh?

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

No.

I think Blonde might have a valid point, too.

But I really, really don't like how things are right now. I hate, absolutely hate the conservative right, and I want something different. Fiscally yes, I'm conservative. I prefer small government. But socially, on issues like gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, education, health care, etc...I am very liberal. Whether you want to admit it or not - hell, maybe you prefer it - but there is a culture war going on in America right now, and I'm sick and fucking tired of these conservatives with their religious foundations, turning this country into some Christian nation. That's the biggest thing that's at stake for me, personally. I don't want McCain appointing his conservative judges, denying us the benefits of stem cell research, and so on and so forth, like Bush did. They've set us back and I can't let them continue to.

Well, perhaps we can reach a compromise in viewpoints then. It appears that we are both fiscally conservative. However, you value dog-shit issues like gay-marriage, whereas I value my pocket book. Personally, I have a lot of socially liberal views, in that I strongly believe in stem-cell research, I could give a fuck less whether gay's can get legally married, I believe in pro-choice, and I don't like the idea of Christianity entering politics any more than it has. Nonetheless, the issues of taxation and healthcare are more than enough to convince me that McCain is the superior choice.

Someone once told me: "If your young and conservative you have no heart -- but if you're old and liberal, you have no brain." Call me a heartless bastard, but I fucking hate socialism.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by ProfessorNumber

Next, I'd like to direct everyone's attention to this interesting article from CNN

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news...proposals_tpc/

If you look at the table displaying the projected tax changes, it becomes blatantly obvious just how socialistic Obama is. He wants to increase the taxes of the highest earners in America [making 2.9+ million per year] by $701,885. Holy fucking shit! Just look at this quote from the article:

Explain to me why this is a bad thing. I'm not being facetious. Why should I, a poor college kid, care if millionaires are going to be taxed more? Especially when I stand to be the one to benefit from it.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by ProfessorNumber

Well, perhaps we can reach a compromise in viewpoints then. It appears that we are both fiscally conservative. However, you value dog-shit issues like gay-marriage, whereas I value my pocket book. Personally, I have a lot of socially liberal views, in that I strongly believe in stem-cell research, I could give a fuck less whether gay's can get legally married, I believe in pro-choice, and I don't like the idea of Christianity entering politics any more than it has. Nonetheless, the issues of taxation and healthcare are more than enough to convince me that McCain is the superior choice.

I can compromise. It seems like most of everyone here is with me on the majority of the social issues, but place more value on cold hard cash issues. For me, that's backwards.

And just because you're gay shouldn't make the issue of gay marriage, and especially gay adoption, meaningless. I think it's a very important issue.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Why should I, a poor college kid, care if millionaires are going to be taxed more? Especially when I stand to be the one to benefit from it.

Why should I, a poor college kid with no family in the military, care if soldiers are dying in Iraq? Especially if we get their oil it would decrease gas prices for me?

are you retarded

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

I can compromise. It seems like most of everyone here is with me on the majority of the social issues, but place more value on cold hard cash issues. For me, that's backwards.

And just because you're gay shouldn't make the issue of gay marriage, and especially gay adoption, meaningless. I think it's a very important issue.

Alright, if I'm reading this correctly, it would appear that you made a joke insinuating that I'm a homosexual. While your attempt at humor was pretty amazing, clever, and well-played, I am in fact a heterosexual person. It's great to see that your sense of humor is as good/intelligent as your mis-guided political views. Democracy and capitalism are what made this country great. The sense of entitlement, which is so pervasive today, is what makes this country bad. The very idea that healthcare should be free, or that gay marriage should take the front stage in political debates is beyond ludicrous. It's fucking absurd.

Let me ask you this: Assuming you have a car, if the engine siezes tommorrow, and you have to replace it, what will you do? Let's also assume that you need your car in order to get to/from your place of work. The vast majority of people would begrudgingly pay the steep bill, and maintain their car. However, let's say you fall and break you ankle. Suddenly, if you don't have health insurance you're throwing your hands in the air, and cursing the American goverment for not fixing your body. What does this story tell us? The average American is more willing to pay to fix their car, than their own goddamned body! It's fucking insane that we believe health care should be paid for by the government. Devaluing healthcare is one of the most dangerous things a country can do, and it gives the government free-reign over your body. Do you want to be scored on a wait-list for kidney dialysis based off your weight, height, occupation, age, etc? Sure, medical payments can be staggering. In fact, I agree that we need healthcare reform. However, socialized medicine, and Obama's "15 point-fuckover-plan" are not the answer.

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Explain to me why this is a bad thing. I'm not being facetious. Why should I, a poor college kid, care if millionaires are going to be taxed more? Especially when I stand to be the one to benefit from it.

Right now, I make less than $19,000 per year. Odds are Obama's tax plans would benefit me for many years to come. In fact, there is the slim possibility that I will never make enough money in order to fall into one of Obama's major-fuckover-tax-brackets. That's irrelevant. The priniciple behind the issue is what's important here. Obama wants to essentially take from the rich, in order to fund his socialistic agenda. I personally believe that's fucked up. Once again, I'm sure the American sense of entitlement will make a lot of lower/middle class people vote for Obama. You keep harping on this idea of being socially conscious. In the grand scheme of things, McCain's tax policies help out the country as a whole, and are focused on reducing goverment spending. Why should the rich have to pay more money for being successful?

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally Posted by THEINCREDIBLEdork

Why should I, a poor college kid with no family in the military, care if soldiers are dying in Iraq? Especially if we get their oil it would decrease gas prices for me?

are you retarded

Excellent post. Repug is being a morally presumptuous hypocrit.

It's almost comical how he states that we should be concerned with gay marriage -- despite that issue having no significance in my life -- and then proceeds to state how he doesn't care about taxing the rich, since it doesn't directly affect him.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by THEINCREDIBLEdork

Why should I, a poor college kid with no family in the military, care if soldiers are dying in Iraq? Especially if we get their oil it would decrease gas prices for me?

are you retarded

1. Are you really comparing death with taxes?

2. Gas is at an all time high.

3. No, I am not.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by ProfessorNumber

Alright, if I'm reading this correctly, it would appear that you made a joke insinuating that I'm a homosexual. While your attempt at humor was pretty amazing, clever, and well-played, I am in fact a heterosexual person. It's great to see that your sense of humor is as good/intelligent as your mis-guided political views. Democracy and capitalism are what made this country great. The sense of entitlement, which is so pervasive today, is what makes this country bad. The very idea that healthcare should be free, or that gay marriage should take the front stage in political debates is beyond ludicrous. It's fucking absurd.

Actually dude I wasn't making a joke about you being gay. Honest. You're being way over sensative. I agree with you that a sense of entitlement in this country is a real problem, but I think health care should be a universal right. As it is right now, only the wealthy can afford it. I just don't think that's right.

You say gay marriage is absurd, but how is it any different than the civil rights movement of the 60's? Replace gay with black. It's interchangable. Why are we denying gay people the same rights as everybody else? If you don't see why that's a big issue then I'm at a loss.

Originally Posted by ProfessorNumber

Right now, I make less than $19,000 per year. Odds are Obama's tax plans would benefit me for many years to come. In fact, there is the slim possibility that I will never make enough money in order to fall into one of Obama's major-fuckover-tax-brackets. That's irrelevant. The priniciple behind the issue is what's important here. Obama wants to essentially take from the rich, in order to fund his socialistic agenda. I personally believe that's fucked up. Once again, I'm sure the American sense of entitlement will make a lot of lower/middle class people vote for Obama. You keep harping on this idea of being socially conscious. In the grand scheme of things, McCain's tax policies help out the country as a whole, and are focused on reducing goverment spending. Why should the rich have to pay more money for being successful?

You're operating with the assumption that the rich got there from working hard. Do you take into account the cycle of wealth and poverty? The rich stay rich, the poor stay poor. I think it's naive to have some feel good, fairy tale outlook on America, that "anyone" can make it. I think that's false. Some, with a little bit of luck, can. But is that fair? Does a poor farmer, who works his ass off from 5 am to 6 pm, not work as hard as some CEO?

Look, I'm not promoting that we make the rich poor so that everyone is middle class. But I do think the rich, especially the very rich, can pay a little more in taxes for the good of all. The poor might get to live slightly better off lives, and the rich will continue to be rich, although perhaps not as disgustingly so.

[Repugnant Abomination]

I can respect different opinions, but you guys are just a pack of bullies, re-inforcing and enabling each other.

Read some of Noam Chomsky's political thoughts, they're way out of line with all of yours. Then, tell me why he's wrong. Granted he's only one of the most intelligent philosophers, linguists, and political avtivists of the 20th century, but shit, you guys are all waaaay smarter than him.