Who is going to hell? An argument for the Bible, Religion and God. - Page 11 - Nubblies.net Forums

Ironic Mustache · 09-21-2005, 08:55 PM

So "god" then, isn't something unless you refer to god as only a thought. An non-tangible creation of man.

AcTivE · 09-21-2005, 09:52 PM

yes..

Beebs · 09-21-2005, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
shit happens regardless of any wants/needs/desires--a situation will happen

So you believe everything is predetermined?

And I am still curious if you will admit to the possibility that the thought process which lead you to "know" there is a higher power could be flawed, as in the dreaming scenario?

AcTivE · 09-21-2005, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beebs:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AcTivE:
shit happens regardless of any wants/needs/desires--a situation will happen

So you believe everything is predetermined?

And I am still curious if you will admit to the possibility that the thought process which lead you to "know" there is a higher power could be flawed, as in the dreaming scenario?[/quote]
Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying there is a force--pushing everything forward.

Beebs · 09-21-2005, 10:07 PM

But if that force is pushing it to a particular outcome ie "a situation will happen" then everything is predetermined, it is a logical impossibility otherwise, unless that "force" only occasionally works.

And to start a fight, but do you intentionally speak in cliches and dance around questions without really giving your opinion?

AcTivE · 09-21-2005, 10:11 PM

I whole heartedly believe I'm being as clear as I possibly can. It is just a misunderstanding on your part, of what I meant.

And by the "force" I mean that right now you are able to read this sentence. As long as you are alive, stuff is going to be happening. Something else will happen to you--because you are alive and you can direct your attention on something.

Is that more clear?

Beebs · 09-21-2005, 11:19 PM

Clear, but I don't understand the point behind saying it unless you were implying that force was guiding it. If your premise is "things happen" then I agree whole heartedly.

[ September 21, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Beebs ]

AcTivE · 09-21-2005, 11:31 PM

Don't have a point yet...just trying to establish something everyone can agree on.

Repugnant Abomination · 09-22-2005, 01:55 AM

After reading most of your shit active I've come to a few conclusions.

1. You really do believe in what you're saying...

2. You don't know what the hell you're saying. You're so abstract, so vague and so noncommital about everything that you're not standing on solid ground. I would much rather argue this with say, a scholar or historian, then someone like you, who seems to be more of a philosopher.

3. There is no point in arguing with you because you won't ever concede the fact that you may very well be wrong. You'd rather disprove someone elses theory then prove your own.

4. I admire your conviction, and I'm not saying that I don't necessarily think there isn't a God, but it's becoming pretty clear that you just want to believe it so bad that you're willing to spout any kind of psuedo intellectual babble as long as it keeps your beliefs afloat.

5. Good luck.

Mr. Blonde · 09-22-2005, 01:58 AM

THANK YOU. I've been trying to say this entire thread that he isnt definitively taking a stance on anything. He reminds me of "The Architect" in Matrix:Reloaded.

Repugnant Abomination · 09-22-2005, 02:05 AM

But of course Mr.NeoBlonde. It's an anomaly. Peculiar by it's very nature and decipherable only by that which is truth. What is the real you anyway? You, him, me, it's all just a perception by the billions sharing in the Existentialism of existance.

There is no spoon.

AcTivE · 09-22-2005, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Repugnant Abomination:

3. There is no point in arguing with you because you won't ever concede the fact that you may very well be wrong. You'd rather disprove someone elses theory then prove your own.

Wrong? Even if I am wrong, I'm wrong 100% with no doubt, does that not make me right? Sort of like saying how right/wrong is different for a serial killer.

Lucy Fur · 09-22-2005, 09:23 AM

hey! serial killers are people too!!!

Ironic Mustache · 09-22-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Repugnant Abomination:

3. There is no point in arguing with you because you won't ever concede the fact that you may very well be wrong. You'd rather disprove someone elses theory then prove your own.

Wrong? Even if I am wrong, I'm wrong 100% with no doubt, does that not make me right? Sort of like saying how right/wrong is different for a serial killer.[/quote]
More psychobable.

Ugly Bastard · 09-22-2005, 01:35 PM

No shit. I had no idea what any of that meant. Lay off the drugs. Christ.

-Ugly Bastard

[ September 22, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

Beebs · 09-22-2005, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
Even if I am wrong, I'm wrong 100% with no doubt, does that not make me right? Sort of like saying how right/wrong is different for a serial killer.

Wrong and right are not different for a serial killer, that isn't to say that they dont think they are right, but to say that a serial killer is right, is relativism gone rampant.

In order for you for argument to work it is required for wrong and right to be the same thing. Being wrong does not make you right, as wrong is the opposite of right it is a logical impossibility for something to be one thing while at the same time not being that thing.

So I'm honestly curious, do you actually feel that wrong and right are the same thing? Or do you just chose to ignore logical impossibilities?

jbonham · 09-22-2005, 02:56 PM

Ninja Face,
The bible's proof lies in prophecies of the old testament. These prophecies come from many different prophets of many times and distances apart. They did not meet and decide who the Messiah would be. The jews wrote this stuff down because they thought "Hey, if this guy ever comes how are we supposed to know who he is?" So if some man measures up to these prophecies then one would conclude that he is the man spoken of in the old testament. That man is Jesus of Nazareth, of the house of David in the Line of Jesse.

Make No mistake Ninjaface, I am not saying legend has it, I am looking at the culture of the jewish people to determine the importance of document keeping to tell if all prophecies have been fulfilled by a man and then who is telling me that these prophecies are fulfilled and is it the actual person who I am told is telling me this.

As of Right now, I can not show any of you cold hard proof of the divinity of the bible other than what it says in the Bible and the Tanak (Jewish old Testament). However, as time passes the scientific method will prove God's Existence, Divinity, Son, and Law.

And by the way if one is to believe any history one bases this belief on a lot of old books. The bible is a lot of old books. So pay better attention in history and learn the source of the shiny new book in front of oneself before insinuating that old books must be false.

jbonham · 09-22-2005, 02:58 PM

For Active, I hope you mean personally right. I agree one cannot be right logically and wrong logically. So extrapolate a little, please?

Beebs · 09-22-2005, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jbonham:
However, as time passes the scientific method will prove God's Existence, Divinity, Son, and Law.

There has been zero evidence in any movement in this direction, only in the opposite. There has been no legitimate scientific evidence of the divinity of the bible, whereas there has been plenty that suggests there are certain that simply couldn't be true givin the Bible's version of the story. Most notably the age of the Earth, and the coexistance of Dinosaurs and people. So do not fool yourself into thinking that scientific inquiry is going to prove your beliefs. Accept your faith as faith, and leave it outside of the realm of science.

jbonham · 09-22-2005, 03:12 PM

Beebs, The stories of the old testament don't legitamate themselves by any process whatsoever. You mistook what I said. The existence of God including his Son, law, and divinity will be proven in some way shape or form. Not based upon what man will discover through science, but when everyone sees with their own two eyes the Glorious appearing of God. So the Scientific method could then be applied to prove everything I said.

Maybe a course in reading comprehension would help you to not twist people's words into what they are not. I have not suggested your foolhardyness, merely tried to explain WITH THE BIBLE what Active is trying to seek in starting this thread. And if others seek more information try to give them what I know and nothing more.

Mr. Blonde · 09-22-2005, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jbonham:

And by the way if one is to believe any history one bases this belief on a lot of old books. The bible is a lot of old books. So pay better attention in history and learn the source of the shiny new book in front of oneself before insinuating that old books must be false.

History, except that which includes religion in it, does not claim to perform miracles. Could things that happened in history be wrong? Yes, of course they could, we could all be fooled if our records of history relied solely on books we found (like the bible). But there are also artifacts found, bones found, and much other PROOF that can support our current view of history, which brings the argument back to what beebs just said...

Quote:

Originally posted by Beebs:
There has been no legitimate scientific evidence of the divinity of the bible, whereas there has been plenty that suggests there are certain that simply couldn't be true givin the Bible's version of the story. Most notably the age of the Earth, and the coexistance of Dinosaurs and people. So do not fool yourself into thinking that scientific inquiry is going to prove your beliefs. Accept your faith as faith, and leave it outside of the realm of science.

Beebs · 09-22-2005, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jbonham:
You mistook what I said. The existence of God including his Son, law, and divinity will be proven in some way shape or form. Not based upon what man will discover through science

That is infact EXACTLY what you said,

Quote:

Originally posted by jbonham:
However, as time passes the scientific method will prove God's Existence, Divinity, Son, and Law.

Scientific method is by it's very definition what man will discover throug science.

so don't question my ability to read.

jbonham · 09-22-2005, 03:28 PM

The things Beebs mentions though do not disprove the divinity of the Bible. Semi-modern calendars did not come into existence until 2000 BCE so Just because God gave us proof of his existence 2000 yrs in a way that could be understandable to men 2000 yrs ago and be relevant yet today does not disprove him.

Divine events do not leave behind some sort of goo or dvd to document these things. But you can't prove the lineage of a man by modern DNA tests because whose 2000 year old hair do we have.

The evidenciary pieces suggested by Mr. Blonde are all things that can prove existence of physical things. However, the only way to prove things a man did are by what he left behind in books, culture, arts, and architecture.

So what kind of proof would you suggest that these divine events happened? I know of nothing that could prove people getting healed miraculously or raised from the dead other than medical records and again, those would just come from a book.

jbonham · 09-22-2005, 03:29 PM

Yeah, when God appears then one will be able to prove by the scientific method all of what I said. Don't pick one sentence to isolate. That is how we got Schizms in the church

Repugnant Abomination · 09-22-2005, 03:30 PM

I like how active ignores the majority of my post and only responded to what he thought he could worm his way out of by once again talking a whole lot without saying much of anything.

09-21-2005, 08:55 PM	#251 (permalink)
Ironic Mustache G'd up from the feet up. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cali Posts: 7,146 Supreme Emperor of the Jiu Jitsu Shit Forum?: Yes Internets: 114735	So "god" then, isn't something unless you refer to god as only a thought. An non-tangible creation of man.
	Creeping around as I please nonchalantly like any other Supreme Emperor might.

09-21-2005, 09:52 PM	#252 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	yes..
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

09-21-2005, 10:11 PM	#256 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	I whole heartedly believe I'm being as clear as I possibly can. It is just a misunderstanding on your part, of what I meant. And by the "force" I mean that right now you are able to read this sentence. As long as you are alive, stuff is going to be happening. Something else will happen to you--because you are alive and you can direct your attention on something. Is that more clear?
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

09-21-2005, 11:31 PM	#258 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	Don't have a point yet...just trying to establish something everyone can agree on.
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

09-22-2005, 01:58 AM	#260 (permalink)
Mr. Blonde Spice Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 17,969 Internets: 278288	THANK YOU. I've been trying to say this entire thread that he isnt definitively taking a stance on anything. He reminds me of "The Architect" in Matrix:Reloaded.
	Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing. ― Terence McKenna

09-21-2005, 10:07 PM	#255 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	But if that force is pushing it to a particular outcome ie "a situation will happen" then everything is predetermined, it is a logical impossibility otherwise, unless that "force" only occasionally works. And to start a fight, but do you intentionally speak in cliches and dance around questions without really giving your opinion?

09-21-2005, 11:19 PM	#257 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	Clear, but I don't understand the point behind saying it unless you were implying that force was guiding it. If your premise is "things happen" then I agree whole heartedly. [ September 21, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Beebs ]

09-22-2005, 01:55 AM	#259 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 161638	After reading most of your shit active I've come to a few conclusions. 1. You really do believe in what you're saying... 2. You don't know what the hell you're saying. You're so abstract, so vague and so noncommital about everything that you're not standing on solid ground. I would much rather argue this with say, a scholar or historian, then someone like you, who seems to be more of a philosopher. 3. There is no point in arguing with you because you won't ever concede the fact that you may very well be wrong. You'd rather disprove someone elses theory then prove your own. 4. I admire your conviction, and I'm not saying that I don't necessarily think there isn't a God, but it's becoming pretty clear that you just want to believe it so bad that you're willing to spout any kind of psuedo intellectual babble as long as it keeps your beliefs afloat. 5. Good luck.

09-22-2005, 02:05 AM	#261 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 161638	But of course Mr.NeoBlonde. It's an anomaly. Peculiar by it's very nature and decipherable only by that which is truth. What is the real you anyway? You, him, me, it's all just a perception by the billions sharing in the Existentialism of existance. There is no spoon.

09-22-2005, 09:23 AM	#263 (permalink)
Lucy Fur Empress Magnificent Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 825 Internets: 349	hey! serial killers are people too!!!
	I am chaos. It is my destiny to destroy.

09-22-2005, 01:35 PM	#265 (permalink)
Ugly Bastard Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 13,643 Internets: 247330	No shit. I had no idea what any of that meant. Lay off the drugs. Christ. -Ugly Bastard [ September 22, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

09-22-2005, 02:56 PM	#267 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	Ninja Face, The bible's proof lies in prophecies of the old testament. These prophecies come from many different prophets of many times and distances apart. They did not meet and decide who the Messiah would be. The jews wrote this stuff down because they thought "Hey, if this guy ever comes how are we supposed to know who he is?" So if some man measures up to these prophecies then one would conclude that he is the man spoken of in the old testament. That man is Jesus of Nazareth, of the house of David in the Line of Jesse. Make No mistake Ninjaface, I am not saying legend has it, I am looking at the culture of the jewish people to determine the importance of document keeping to tell if all prophecies have been fulfilled by a man and then who is telling me that these prophecies are fulfilled and is it the actual person who I am told is telling me this. As of Right now, I can not show any of you cold hard proof of the divinity of the bible other than what it says in the Bible and the Tanak (Jewish old Testament). However, as time passes the scientific method will prove God's Existence, Divinity, Son, and Law. And by the way if one is to believe any history one bases this belief on a lot of old books. The bible is a lot of old books. So pay better attention in history and learn the source of the shiny new book in front of oneself before insinuating that old books must be false.

09-22-2005, 02:58 PM	#268 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	For Active, I hope you mean personally right. I agree one cannot be right logically and wrong logically. So extrapolate a little, please?

09-22-2005, 03:12 PM	#270 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	Beebs, The stories of the old testament don't legitamate themselves by any process whatsoever. You mistook what I said. The existence of God including his Son, law, and divinity will be proven in some way shape or form. Not based upon what man will discover through science, but when everyone sees with their own two eyes the Glorious appearing of God. So the Scientific method could then be applied to prove everything I said. Maybe a course in reading comprehension would help you to not twist people's words into what they are not. I have not suggested your foolhardyness, merely tried to explain WITH THE BIBLE what Active is trying to seek in starting this thread. And if others seek more information try to give them what I know and nothing more.

09-22-2005, 03:28 PM	#273 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	The things Beebs mentions though do not disprove the divinity of the Bible. Semi-modern calendars did not come into existence until 2000 BCE so Just because God gave us proof of his existence 2000 yrs in a way that could be understandable to men 2000 yrs ago and be relevant yet today does not disprove him. Divine events do not leave behind some sort of goo or dvd to document these things. But you can't prove the lineage of a man by modern DNA tests because whose 2000 year old hair do we have. The evidenciary pieces suggested by Mr. Blonde are all things that can prove existence of physical things. However, the only way to prove things a man did are by what he left behind in books, culture, arts, and architecture. So what kind of proof would you suggest that these divine events happened? I know of nothing that could prove people getting healed miraculously or raised from the dead other than medical records and again, those would just come from a book.

09-22-2005, 03:29 PM	#274 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	Yeah, when God appears then one will be able to prove by the scientific method all of what I said. Don't pick one sentence to isolate. That is how we got Schizms in the church

09-22-2005, 03:30 PM	#275 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 161638	I like how active ignores the majority of my post and only responded to what he thought he could worm his way out of by once again talking a whole lot without saying much of anything.