Who is going to hell? An argument for the Bible, Religion and God. - Page 15 - Nubblies.net Forums

blackbirdsjoy · 10-13-2005, 06:41 PM

sorry i edited my post just as you submitted yours. These footprints arn't just a light layer of stone easily pushed through the earth... the ones in Glenn Rose Texas were formed in a river bed with mud. Wouldn't they have to be formed at the same time?

blackbirdsjoy · 10-13-2005, 06:45 PM

ok here are some pics of the fossils i found
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm

Ironic Mustache · 10-13-2005, 06:54 PM

Hahahaha that's blocked by websense for "Traditional Religions" purposes.

Beebs · 10-13-2005, 06:57 PM

Can you really take that as a legitimate, academic source? The "research" is at best a self-fullfilling prophesy, and more like just outright fraud...it's really quite rediculous.
http://www.asa3.org:16080/ASA/PSCF/1...8Hastings.html

blackbirdsjoy · 10-13-2005, 06:58 PM

wtf? i hate firewalls, im at Grace College, and we're not allowed to view "Tastelss/Gross", bunch of shit, ill see what i can do to get them up here.

ok, well i don't know UBB code, but i know html so heres some pics off the site http://www.miltonroe.com/nubb/prints.htm

[ October 13, 2005, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: blackbirdsjoy ]

jbonham · 10-13-2005, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ninjaface:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jbonham:
...the bible is not a complete history of the world. It only contains a history of the people of Israel.

The bible also contains the legend of the creation of the world and the first 2 human beings.
So when god was telling his cronies what to put in the bible he decided to leave out that whole dinosaur thing? Sounds like a marketing move to me. They left out one of god's mistakes to make him look better. Thats like when I bragged about how I made some delicious brownies, but I did not tell everyone that on my first try they came out tasting like asshole. I've never actually made brownies, but you get the point.

I think my post definitely disproves the existence of god and in turn, the validity of any and all religions. I win this thread.[/quote]
I do not think that you have disproved the existence of God whatsoever and totally missed my point. The old Testament was written by the Jews with the purpose of maintaining their history. Even if dinosaurs co-existed,as the Grace kid says, with people written of in the old testament, that does not matter. The canon is written in three parts: the history of God's People, the Laws of God, and the Prophets. Dinosaurs would not have mattered as the books are not written to document wildlife but to secure the way of life God had laid out for them.
So jumping to the conclusion that because a book leaves something out means that it is completely fictional is fundamentally unjust. The bible doesn't mention the Chinese and yet they had a flourishing culture. The bible mentions the Hittites and they also had a flourishing culture. So why because it does not specifically mention a term you are familiar with do you think that you have cracked the Bible's reputation and the existence of God?

ninjaface · 10-13-2005, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jbonham:
I do not think that you have disproved the existence of God whatsoever and totally missed my point. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH I LOVE GOD BLAH BLAH BLAH So why because it does not specifically mention a term you are familiar with do you think that you have cracked the Bible's reputation and the existence of God?

You missed some blatant, glaring sarcasm. This thread is an obvious waste of time no matter what side you are on. As it stands no one can prove nor disprove god or religion or anything of the sort to anyone else's satisfaction. There is no point in arguing any further unless you are bored, or just feel like being an asshole. If I had the power to do so, I'd delete any and all threads having to do with arguing one way or another in regards to religion. Instead, I think there needs to be a catch all religion/god thread that no one can post on. That way, we can all pay attention to much more important things. This thread should be called Religion/Spirituality. This thread should contain some sort of message stating something along the lines of "All religions are valid.. or maybe not. Decide for yourself."

Right now.. from this point on.. I officially don't give a shit about this thread.

jbonham · 10-13-2005, 10:56 PM

Now that was rather hostile, wasn't it? Why do you feel the need to speak up when you say you don't care at all? Active started the thread in an effort to seek out the beliefs of all nubblites. It is your decision to post here. I do not think anyone is being an asshole by posting their beliefs.

If you hate religion so much then don't seek out a thread arguing about it.

I don't think anyone cares if you give a shit about the thread or not. I certainly don't.

I think it is rather funny how you seem to let my beliefs bother you and using sarcasm as a tool to hide that insecurity.

[ October 13, 2005, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: jbonham ]

Mr. Blonde · 10-13-2005, 11:08 PM

I think it's rather funny that you're resorting to the good old "you're only acting sarcastic and hostile because you're secretly insecure LOLZ i should be a psychologist!!!!" line. You are being an asshole about this thread, but keep living your life with the empty promise of heaven looming ahead, nothing like even more dissapointment meeting you after you already die.

[ October 13, 2005, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Blonde ]

jbonham · 10-13-2005, 11:13 PM

well it was rather hostile, but i haven't shit on anyone's beliefs so far so bite me. I think it sucks that you guys have to resort to that in an argument simply because you have nothing significant to add to the conversation.

I wouldn't consider myself an asshole, just someone who doesn't like being attacked personally for no justifiable reason.

Mr. Blonde · 10-13-2005, 11:56 PM

yeah, that does suck. too bad.

Ironic Mustache · 10-14-2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ninjaface:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jbonham:
I do not think that you have disproved the existence of God whatsoever and totally missed my point. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH I LOVE GOD BLAH BLAH BLAH So why because it does not specifically mention a term you are familiar with do you think that you have cracked the Bible's reputation and the existence of God?

You missed some blatant, glaring sarcasm. This thread is an obvious waste of time no matter what side you are on. As it stands no one can prove nor disprove god or religion or anything of the sort to anyone else's satisfaction. There is no point in arguing any further unless you are bored, or just feel like being an asshole. If I had the power to do so, I'd delete any and all threads having to do with arguing one way or another in regards to religion. Instead, I think there needs to be a catch all religion/god thread that no one can post on. That way, we can all pay attention to much more important things. This thread should be called Religion/Spirituality. This thread should contain some sort of message stating something along the lines of "All religions are valid.. or maybe not. Decide for yourself."

Right now.. from this point on.. I officially don't give a shit about this thread.[/quote]
I think this is bullshit and if the argument of religion and whether god does or does not exist is going to be solved once and for all, it's most certainly going to be sorted out in a nubblies thread.

Please, all experts on this subject continue.

vaga1220 * · 10-15-2005, 02:57 PM

Mustache hath erected the truth.

jbonham · 10-16-2005, 09:21 PM

Here is something to spike a response:
Has the religious decline in our country had a direct effect on the Moral decline within the past two generations?

I know this is not simple to answer. But, it does relate to the dynamic views people have on God and religion b/c someone's religious views affect their moral views.

Beebs · 10-16-2005, 09:34 PM

Moral decline?

Beebs · 10-16-2005, 09:38 PM

So if by "moral decline" you mean people not going to church, believing what you believe, or *gasp* having fun (even that dirty terrible thing known as sex)then I guess you could make the argument. If by "moral decline" you mean actual unethical acts, you're wrong, end of story

jbonham · 10-16-2005, 09:48 PM

I said moral decline not instances of criminalization. and you forgot to post the rise in drug related offenses.

I mean moral decline as in the acceptance of things that we know are wrong according to the specified religion we "practice."

It was a question not a statement.

Beebs · 10-16-2005, 10:12 PM

Are the things above listed not immoral? They clearly are immoral, and they clearly have fallen, so your theory doens't apply to those immoral acts, and logic leads me to believe it doesn't applly to most others. As for drugs, the only graph the DOJ has is a raw numbers graph, rather than a per 1000 people graph, and it goes for 30 years, so it is intentionally misleading.

So where is the moral decline? Rape, murder, violent crime, gun crime, burgarly are all down, it's a fact. And until you are willing to argue within the realms of facts, what you say is simply a guess.

jbonham · 10-16-2005, 11:25 PM

I am not arguing against you, as the acts you listed are immoral and according to statistics have declined with the increase in the number of police reports increasing with these decreases.

Morality is not only tied to a level of criminality. As somethings are considered immoral by some they are not necessarily illegal. So with reported abortion levels higher than for when my parents were my age, as with legalized and illegal euthenization, the overall acceptance of drinking and doing drugs by the majority, as well as the acceptance of profanity being at the level it currently is I am ASKING nubblites what their take on the situation is.

I agree with the statistics, but crime is not necessarily indicative of the standard of morality.

In your case, I guess, you are saying that morality, in general, has not declined but risen to a new peak? I am wondering your take on the moral issues not the legal ones. Although, I will say I did not stipulate which division of morality I was trying to expose and you had the right to assume I meant the rise of crime. I am sorry that i was not clear in my objective of the question.

Beebs · 10-16-2005, 11:54 PM

Would you rather live in a society where people drink, do drugs, and (are you joking with this one?)curse, or where people rape, murder, and rob? My point is that the things you are complaining about are not as importnant as the issues I brought up. Is abortion good? Of course not, but it hasn't increased all that dramatically (13 out of 1000 women in 1973, compared to 16 in 2001)

The point in general is YES, America, and the world in general tends to get more ethical slowly over time. Sure, people smoke pot and say fuck now, but we don't own slaves, we don't stone women to death, et al. There might be temporary dips in human morality, such as the holocaust, but humans learn and adapt, and tend to act more morally as time goes along when you look at the big picture, not petty shit.

jbonham · 10-18-2005, 03:46 PM

Beebs, I concede that i would rather live in a society as the first is described. I think petty shit is what helps us move along. Solving the bigger problems is definitely an issue for societies to focus on as they touch all of humanity.

Laws are based upon morals, true, But not all morals are based on the law. Morality is individual. We now have laws in place that protect the individual and for the most part, they are working. But yes, seriously, I am asking does anyone think that the religious declination of our country has affected the moral decline, not a time of lawlessness but a time of selfishness.

Now, I understand that Beebs thinks that replacement of morality with a another morality is satisfactory and he is happy. But could it be that criminals are realiziing that some types of crimes are easily caught and others not so easily. ID theft has increased, is it more dangerous to anonymously steal someone's identity or credit card or to rob a bank? Crime adapts to technology, violent things happen less b/c typically crimes today don't have to be as violent (in my opinion). So I am saying, thank God for the decrease in all this crime, yet people are treating each other like shit on a daily basis. Therefore, i posed the question. This post contains the reason i posed the question.

Ironic Mustache · 10-18-2005, 04:03 PM

How is drug use immoral?

AcTivE · 10-18-2005, 05:10 PM

thats what i'd like to know

Beebs · 10-18-2005, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jbonham:
Beebs, I concede that i would rather live in a society as the first is described. I think petty shit is what helps us move along. Solving the bigger problems is definitely an issue for societies to focus on as they touch all of humanity.

Laws are based upon morals, true, But not all morals are based on the law. Morality is individual. We now have laws in place that protect the individual and for the most part, they are working. But yes, seriously, I am asking does anyone think that the religious declination of our country has affected the moral decline, not a time of lawlessness but a time of selfishness.

Now, I understand that Beebs thinks that replacement of morality with a another morality is satisfactory and he is happy. But could it be that criminals are realiziing that some types of crimes are easily caught and others not so easily. ID theft has increased, is it more dangerous to anonymously steal someone's identity or credit card or to rob a bank? Crime adapts to technology, violent things happen less b/c typically crimes today don't have to be as violent (in my opinion). So I am saying, thank God for the decrease in all this crime, yet people are treating each other like shit on a daily basis. Therefore, i posed the question. This post contains the reason i posed the question.

Do you not agree that replacing instances of major immorality with instances of minor immorality is an IMPROVEMENT? Not satisfactory, but and improvement none the less?

Do you think that before say 1950 people were much nicer to each other, even in everyday instances like you are talking about, I highly doubt there has been much if any change, but rather you are just idealizing the past.

Do you not agree that the world is becoming a MORE moral place overall? If so, how is this a moral decline? And I find the fact that you think morality is individual interesting, as it would seem that in your eyes morality is universal based on the word of god. I would say that morality is universal based on the universal study of rights, justice, utility, and care, but I would think that we would agree that morality is indeed universal.

You seem to think I am saying only breaking the law is immoral, I'm just using those as examples because they can be documented, unlike your claims, and I like to base my arguments on more than conjecture. Provide me some evidence of your so called moral decline, as I have clearly shown major instances of the opposite.

jbonham · 10-18-2005, 07:38 PM

I agree that it is definitely an improvement. I am not trying to idealize the past. And yes overall, within the picture of social acceptance the world is coming to a new light.

I say yes there is a certain universal morality, however some things are immoral to others and moral to some.

But, in our generation, (as I think you are relatively my age) abortion is legal and highly acceptable in too many cases, euthenasia is currently in legal limbo (i am undecided on that), divorce is widely accepted, and the attitude toward common courtesies has dwindled (I think this is a special on ABC or NBC). So yes, beebs i am glad of the downfall of major crime. But i don't think that it is necessary to lose on these other issues. Of course, the aforementioned items deal with my personal morals.

Personal morals differ. Do you think that all morals are universal? It simply cannot be so. I am not just conjuring these things up, it is what i have noticed through social transformation. So yes there is a universal morality, but the outcomes of studying this morality brings differing views on what is moral or immoral.

So is this differing morality based upon the decline in the importance of Religion in our daily lives?

10-13-2005, 06:41 PM	#351 (permalink)
blackbirdsjoy Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: The Piss Hole Posts: 185 Internets: 10	sorry i edited my post just as you submitted yours. These footprints arn't just a light layer of stone easily pushed through the earth... the ones in Glenn Rose Texas were formed in a river bed with mud. Wouldn't they have to be formed at the same time?
	Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah-nagl fhtagn.

10-13-2005, 06:45 PM	#352 (permalink)
blackbirdsjoy Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: The Piss Hole Posts: 185 Internets: 10	ok here are some pics of the fossils i found http://www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm
	Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah-nagl fhtagn.

10-13-2005, 06:54 PM	#353 (permalink)
Ironic Mustache G'd up from the feet up. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cali Posts: 7,146 Supreme Emperor of the Jiu Jitsu Shit Forum?: Yes Internets: 114735	Hahahaha that's blocked by websense for "Traditional Religions" purposes.
	Creeping around as I please nonchalantly like any other Supreme Emperor might.

10-13-2005, 06:58 PM	#355 (permalink)
blackbirdsjoy Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: The Piss Hole Posts: 185 Internets: 10	wtf? i hate firewalls, im at Grace College, and we're not allowed to view "Tastelss/Gross", bunch of shit, ill see what i can do to get them up here. ok, well i don't know UBB code, but i know html so heres some pics off the site http://www.miltonroe.com/nubb/prints.htm [ October 13, 2005, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: blackbirdsjoy ]
	Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah-nagl fhtagn.

10-13-2005, 11:08 PM	#359 (permalink)
Mr. Blonde Spice Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 17,969 Internets: 284106	I think it's rather funny that you're resorting to the good old "you're only acting sarcastic and hostile because you're secretly insecure LOLZ i should be a psychologist!!!!" line. You are being an asshole about this thread, but keep living your life with the empty promise of heaven looming ahead, nothing like even more dissapointment meeting you after you already die. [ October 13, 2005, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Blonde ]
	Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing. ― Terence McKenna

10-13-2005, 06:57 PM	#354 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	Can you really take that as a legitimate, academic source? The "research" is at best a self-fullfilling prophesy, and more like just outright fraud...it's really quite rediculous. http://www.asa3.org:16080/ASA/PSCF/1...8Hastings.html

10-13-2005, 10:56 PM	#358 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	Now that was rather hostile, wasn't it? Why do you feel the need to speak up when you say you don't care at all? Active started the thread in an effort to seek out the beliefs of all nubblites. It is your decision to post here. I do not think anyone is being an asshole by posting their beliefs. If you hate religion so much then don't seek out a thread arguing about it. I don't think anyone cares if you give a shit about the thread or not. I certainly don't. I think it is rather funny how you seem to let my beliefs bother you and using sarcasm as a tool to hide that insecurity. [ October 13, 2005, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: jbonham ]

10-13-2005, 11:13 PM	#360 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	well it was rather hostile, but i haven't shit on anyone's beliefs so far so bite me. I think it sucks that you guys have to resort to that in an argument simply because you have nothing significant to add to the conversation. I wouldn't consider myself an asshole, just someone who doesn't like being attacked personally for no justifiable reason.

10-13-2005, 11:56 PM	#361 (permalink)
Mr. Blonde Spice Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 17,969 Internets: 284106	yeah, that does suck. too bad.
	Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing. ― Terence McKenna

10-15-2005, 02:57 PM	#363 (permalink)
vaga1220 * *Dislikes ham Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: HELL 666 Posts: 1,518 Internets: 60790	Mustache hath erected the truth.
	Putting the sensual in non-consensual.

10-16-2005, 09:21 PM	#364 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	Here is something to spike a response: Has the religious decline in our country had a direct effect on the Moral decline within the past two generations? I know this is not simple to answer. But, it does relate to the dynamic views people have on God and religion b/c someone's religious views affect their moral views.

10-16-2005, 09:34 PM	#365 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	Moral decline?

10-16-2005, 09:38 PM	#366 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	So if by "moral decline" you mean people not going to church, believing what you believe, or gasp having fun (even that dirty terrible thing known as sex)then I guess you could make the argument. If by "moral decline" you mean actual unethical acts, you're wrong, end of story

10-16-2005, 09:48 PM	#367 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	I said moral decline not instances of criminalization. and you forgot to post the rise in drug related offenses. I mean moral decline as in the acceptance of things that we know are wrong according to the specified religion we "practice." It was a question not a statement.

10-16-2005, 10:12 PM	#368 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	Are the things above listed not immoral? They clearly are immoral, and they clearly have fallen, so your theory doens't apply to those immoral acts, and logic leads me to believe it doesn't applly to most others. As for drugs, the only graph the DOJ has is a raw numbers graph, rather than a per 1000 people graph, and it goes for 30 years, so it is intentionally misleading. So where is the moral decline? Rape, murder, violent crime, gun crime, burgarly are all down, it's a fact. And until you are willing to argue within the realms of facts, what you say is simply a guess.

10-18-2005, 05:10 PM	#373 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	thats what i'd like to know
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

10-16-2005, 11:25 PM	#369 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	I am not arguing against you, as the acts you listed are immoral and according to statistics have declined with the increase in the number of police reports increasing with these decreases. Morality is not only tied to a level of criminality. As somethings are considered immoral by some they are not necessarily illegal. So with reported abortion levels higher than for when my parents were my age, as with legalized and illegal euthenization, the overall acceptance of drinking and doing drugs by the majority, as well as the acceptance of profanity being at the level it currently is I am ASKING nubblites what their take on the situation is. I agree with the statistics, but crime is not necessarily indicative of the standard of morality. In your case, I guess, you are saying that morality, in general, has not declined but risen to a new peak? I am wondering your take on the moral issues not the legal ones. Although, I will say I did not stipulate which division of morality I was trying to expose and you had the right to assume I meant the rise of crime. I am sorry that i was not clear in my objective of the question.

10-16-2005, 11:54 PM	#370 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	Would you rather live in a society where people drink, do drugs, and (are you joking with this one?)curse, or where people rape, murder, and rob? My point is that the things you are complaining about are not as importnant as the issues I brought up. Is abortion good? Of course not, but it hasn't increased all that dramatically (13 out of 1000 women in 1973, compared to 16 in 2001) The point in general is YES, America, and the world in general tends to get more ethical slowly over time. Sure, people smoke pot and say fuck now, but we don't own slaves, we don't stone women to death, et al. There might be temporary dips in human morality, such as the holocaust, but humans learn and adapt, and tend to act more morally as time goes along when you look at the big picture, not petty shit.

10-18-2005, 03:46 PM	#371 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	Beebs, I concede that i would rather live in a society as the first is described. I think petty shit is what helps us move along. Solving the bigger problems is definitely an issue for societies to focus on as they touch all of humanity. Laws are based upon morals, true, But not all morals are based on the law. Morality is individual. We now have laws in place that protect the individual and for the most part, they are working. But yes, seriously, I am asking does anyone think that the religious declination of our country has affected the moral decline, not a time of lawlessness but a time of selfishness. Now, I understand that Beebs thinks that replacement of morality with a another morality is satisfactory and he is happy. But could it be that criminals are realiziing that some types of crimes are easily caught and others not so easily. ID theft has increased, is it more dangerous to anonymously steal someone's identity or credit card or to rob a bank? Crime adapts to technology, violent things happen less b/c typically crimes today don't have to be as violent (in my opinion). So I am saying, thank God for the decrease in all this crime, yet people are treating each other like shit on a daily basis. Therefore, i posed the question. This post contains the reason i posed the question.

10-18-2005, 04:03 PM	#372 (permalink)
Ironic Mustache G'd up from the feet up. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cali Posts: 7,146 Supreme Emperor of the Jiu Jitsu Shit Forum?: Yes Internets: 114735	How is drug use immoral?
	Creeping around as I please nonchalantly like any other Supreme Emperor might.

10-18-2005, 07:38 PM	#375 (permalink)
jbonham Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 114 Internets: 10	I agree that it is definitely an improvement. I am not trying to idealize the past. And yes overall, within the picture of social acceptance the world is coming to a new light. I say yes there is a certain universal morality, however some things are immoral to others and moral to some. But, in our generation, (as I think you are relatively my age) abortion is legal and highly acceptable in too many cases, euthenasia is currently in legal limbo (i am undecided on that), divorce is widely accepted, and the attitude toward common courtesies has dwindled (I think this is a special on ABC or NBC). So yes, beebs i am glad of the downfall of major crime. But i don't think that it is necessary to lose on these other issues. Of course, the aforementioned items deal with my personal morals. Personal morals differ. Do you think that all morals are universal? It simply cannot be so. I am not just conjuring these things up, it is what i have noticed through social transformation. So yes there is a universal morality, but the outcomes of studying this morality brings differing views on what is moral or immoral. So is this differing morality based upon the decline in the importance of Religion in our daily lives?