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-   -   Atheists CAN go to Heaven (http://www.nubblies.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12647)

ProfessorNumber 07-10-2003 04:12 AM

If there's one thing I'm sick and tired of, it's when a "Christian" tells me that atheists, people of other religions, and agnostics are going to Hell.

I personally am a Christian. However, just because I am a Christian, doesn't mean that I think atheists are going to Hell. I seriously pisses me off when some dumbass gets into an argument with me, and tells me that you HAVE to believe in God to go to Heaven. Bullshit.

Imagine this scenario: If Mother Theresa(sp) was an atheist, but she still had done all of her good deads, would God send her to hell just because she wasn't Christian? Hell No.

Which brings me to my main point. As my former pastor once said, "God judges people by their character." A pastor said this, not just me. I just don't see how anyone could believe that God would send a person who has lived an honest and meaningful life to Hell, because he chose not to be a Christian. Honestly, I think God would be just as pleased to see an atheist live a morally correct life, as he would to see someone live a Christian life.

In conclusion, Fuck you if you are one of those close minded dumbasses who thinks that God only admits Christian people into Heaven.

Orgazmo 07-10-2003 04:19 AM

Moved to rants.

Sure, it could produce some reasonable shit talking...but I think it's more rantish.

Not to mention that I foresee replies less "fuck you, cocksucker" and more "but the bible says..."

I may be wrong though.

[ July 10, 2003, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: Orgazmo ]

StDx 07-10-2003 04:30 AM

P.N. and Orgz, you're both going to hell for this.

please note that the above statement is more tongue in cheek than a rimjob convention and is not meant to be taken seriously on any level

AcTivE 07-10-2003 04:47 AM

Quote:

A pastor said this, not just me. I just don't see how anyone could believe that God would send a person who has lived an honest and meaningful life to Hell, because he chose not to be a Christian. Honestly, I think God would be just as pleased to see an atheist live a morally correct life, as he would to see someone live a Christian life.
Read the bible. Going to church makes us feel all good inside--from your saying 'A pastor said this, not just me' tells me how hypocrtical people can be. Going to hell is a pretty big deal, right? Your willing to base all of your eternity on 'A pastor said this'?? Fuck, I think if I gave two shits about flame burning my skin for all eternity I'd read the bible and figure out what it says for myself. Can't claim ignorance...it's right there

Anyway, 'I' completely disagree with you...everybody has sinned. God judging one sin over another to 'me' would be shallow. Is that all it comes down to, ...this person raped 2 people, ..this one only stole some candy--of course the previous would probably go to hell--right?

Think the whole point of jesus dying on the cross...was because he was only man to walk the earth without sinning...and died for our sins. Fuck the atheists--point of christianity is faith..believing. How can someone be saved if they don't believe their sins are forgiven...??

..anyway, just what i think... :rolleyes:

Dr. Seuss 07-10-2003 05:03 AM

According to the Bible, you and the people who argue with you are both correct on this one.
"Proof" that you are correct:
John 5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
"Proof" that you are incorrect:
Mark 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

I got these verses both from a site called www.skepticsannotatedbible.com . I am not a Christian, and I didn't put much effort into researching this wonderful topic, so I might be taking those verses completely out of context. If I am, I'm sure someone will gladly rip this post to shreds.

And I almost forgot, fuck you, cocksucker.

Ugly Bastard 07-10-2003 09:23 AM

AcTiVe, so how about my respect level going up for you quite a lot after reading that post.

ProfNumber-

I've been raised in a Christian home since the minute I popped out of the womb, so I know a thing or two about the subject. I can honestly tell you that there is no way that you can just get to heaven simply by being a good person according to the Christian theory. This isn't just my own opinion or anything, I'm just telling you what 99% of all protestants believe.

According to Christianity, good deeds alone will not get you into the Kingdom, rather "accepting Jesus into you heart" and seeking to live a life just as he did, will get you into heaven.

So there ya go...

-Ugly Bastard

BigDongedHoe 07-10-2003 12:41 PM

Ugly Bastard is right PN, if you get into a discussion with any die-hard christian they'll explain it as this: It's a gift, either you accept it or you do not.

I'm agnostic, however I have a brother who is very religious and we've talked about it in depth.

This is always my main arguement on why I don't agree with it. You can have a rapist who has raped 25 women and then finally kills somebody. He goes on death row and he truly finds god. He really has changed his life around, been forgiven for his sins and what not. He sets up prison ministry's and is a true christian. However he still has to be put to death, and he is and then goes to heaven. Then you have a guy who has never broke a law in his life, he worked hard for every penny, has a great family, and remained faithful to his wife throughout. He donates to charity's and overall is a great guy. However, he never accepts god into his heart, he wasn't brought up in a non-christian home and never really had the chance. He then goes to hell for never getting forgiven for his sins (for what few he had).

I just always will disagree with that theory regardless. I've had christians argue the whole thought of "pergatory" with me which shows how much they truly know, seeing as that's a catholic belief.

[ July 10, 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: BigDongedHoe ]

BrassMonkees 07-10-2003 12:42 PM

roses are red, violets are blue, i can misquote scripture as well as you.

don't you love it when people bring in scripture that they have no idea what it means, where it comes from, or what context it is used in. always amuses me.

also for the prof,
Quote:

In conclusion, Fuck you if you are one of those close minded dumbasses who thinks that God only admits Christian people into Heaven.
Anyone else see irony in this statement? Sounds like someone else is a little close-minded as well.

I'm with UB, Active, my respect for you has also risen.

BrassMonkees 07-10-2003 12:42 PM

i didnt' even know i doubled posted, my bad.

[ July 10, 2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: BrassMonkees ]

Alpha 07-10-2003 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
I'm with UB, Active, my respect for you has also risen.
Wow then my stock is going to drop even worse than what it was...

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
Think the whole point of jesus dying on the cross...was because he was only man to walk the earth without sinning...and died for our sins.
The main and fundemental Christian belief is that Jesus died for ALL our sins. It's obvious that God would see not believing in him to be a sin correct? But with Jesus people are saved for all sins, making no sin bigger than another right? Therefore if you aren't sent to hell based on your sins, how could you be sent to hell based on what you believe, even though it's a sin? Does that make any sense to anyone?

Also I hear many people, and the bible, say that God is the most forgiving being there is. I know a lot of forgiving people in my life that I've fucked over a good number of times but they've always given me 2nd chances and forgave me for the fucked up decisions I've made. Wouldn't God be willing to understand and forgive a person for not believing in him during their life? To be honest a lot of atheists have some good reasoning as to why they don't.

I find this to be a damn good topic to post on and I "pray" that everyone will discuss it intelligently, maybe that's just a dream...

[ July 10, 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Alpha ]

ProfessorNumber 07-10-2003 01:35 PM

You have all raised some good points, but ultimately, I just don't see how God could turn his back on th 66% of people in the world who are not Christians. Bullshit.

The bible contradicts itself so many times that I really have no idea how to interpret what it means. Therefore, I go to church where I listen to a pastor explain it. Yes, I do trust my pastor a lot, and I believe that he was right when he said that God judges people by their character.

rla128 07-10-2003 02:39 PM

May I ask what "Christian" church you go to that has a pastor that preaches these things?

ProfessorNumber 07-10-2003 02:43 PM

First United Methodist Church of Warsaw.

The pastor I'm referring to was Doug Johns, who is sadly no longer with my church.

Ugly Bastard 07-10-2003 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:
The pastor I'm referring to was Doug Johns, who is sadly no longer with my church.
Which is probably for the best if I comprehend what he was saying in some of his teachings.

-Ugly Bastard

AcTivE 07-10-2003 05:18 PM

Quote:

The main and fundemental Christian belief is that Jesus died for ALL our sins. It's obvious that God would see not believing in him to be a sin correct? But with Jesus people are saved for all sins, making no sin bigger than another right? Therefore if you aren't sent to hell based on your sins, how could you be sent to hell based on what you believe, even though it's a sin? Does that make any sense to anyone?

Also I hear many people, and the bible, say that God is the most forgiving being there is. I know a lot of forgiving people in my life that I've fucked over a good number of times but they've always given me 2nd chances and forgave me for the fucked up decisions I've made. Wouldn't God be willing to understand and forgive a person for not believing in him during their life? To be honest a lot of atheists have some good reasoning as to why they don't.

1) [quote]Does that make sense to anyone? [quote]--Not to me. Are you saying believing in 'Jesus' as the savior is a sin?

2)

Quote:

I find this to be a damn good topic to post on and I "pray" that everyone will discuss it intelligently, maybe that's just a dream...
Once again--I truly find it amazing that anyone would count on discussions of this topic 'intelligently' to be any guiding factor whatsoever. People don't like the thought of burning for all of eternity--and most don't like to take the time to find out what it is to truly avoid that... It's best when we have some pastor, lets say his name is 'Doug' for all practical purposes--that tells you you can get to heaven mearly on living a 'moral' life. Don't really have to place 'God' to high in your life if you just do that...just think--where is he in yours?

...moral life? What is a moral life. Morals all have to do with what YOU as a person believe to be right and wrong, correct? I don't find anything wrong in lighting up a joint over drinking alcohol...but it is against the law--but is not against my morals. I'm still sinning..

The laws were put there by man--will I get to heaven by following mans law??? Also seems like a pretty shallow way to be judged...at least to me.

Read the bible. I'm not 100% completely sure on this--but I'm pretty sure that the basis of 'Christianity' is the belief that Jesus Christ died on the cross for YOUR sins--therefore saving you from hell--because they are FORGIVEN. (basically what you said) Beleving your a 'Christian' would mean that you believe this--not that you just didn't want to go to hell...so you call yourself a 'Christian'..

How any 'Christian' can believe that an Atheist will NOT go to HELL, is beyond me. You say ALL in general terms--I say ALL of those who believe..

If you go with your idea--EVERYONE would go to heaven, regardless. How could that be the case?? Was 'Hell' just made up to scare little kids? ...if so--then why aren't Adam and Eve still alive chillin out in the Garden?

I haven't read much of the Bible..but I do believe I remember people having to make SACRIFICES to God to cover their sins. Jesus Christ--often (I believe so..), was known as the 'Lamb of God' --covering all sins of EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES ...

Once again--just what I think. All the lil Afghan terrorists must feel pretty strongly about what they believe too--willing to kill theirselves over their beliefs... I do have confidence in what I believe though--and no one can change that [img]smile.gif[/img]

silver and cold 07-10-2003 05:22 PM

I'm not the most religous person, not even really all that religous at all, but I am a christan, and I will say I have to agree with UB and Active.

AcTivE 07-10-2003 05:25 PM

Quote:

The bible contradicts itself so many times that I really have no idea how to interpret what it means. Therefore, I go to church where I listen to a pastor explain it. Yes, I do trust my pastor a lot, and I believe that he was right when he said that God judges people by their character.
Have you read it? Not trying to be all 'high and mighty' --because I have not read it all--but I do know enough to know that Old Testament is different from New Testament. You can't take things out of context, or YES they will contradict themselves. Maybe it's just me--I won't trust another person to tell me how to avoid hell for all of eternity...

Alpha 07-10-2003 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
Maybe it's just me--I won't trust another person to tell me how to avoid hell for all of eternity...
But you will trust the men that wrote the bible 2000 years ago? Seems kind of hipocritical doesn't it?

Titan 07-10-2003 05:38 PM

I must admit, it's sad to see many people quoting scripture before they actually use one of the most remarkable things their god gave to them; their brains.

Let us try to keep in my that the main reason that the predominately Caucasian and completely American citizens that grace this board are also Christians, is because they are indeed American. Guys, if you had been born in India, you most likely would have been brought up practicing the Hindu religion, and would be defending it until your dying day, just like you defend Christianity. Unfortunately for us Americans, we are brought up in a country that rarely think it is wrong, and thinks way too highly of itself.

Do you honestly think that out of all the people in the world, the 33% that believe in Christianity are the only ones that your god would send to Heaven? And that all of the other people in the world, those who have never even had a chance to know your "correct" religion would go to Hell? I sure as "Hell" hope not. Who the fuck would want to believe in a god that would do that?

And while we're on the subject, who the fuck would want to believe in Hell? Something as ridiculous as Santa Claus, which sticks around in order to keep kids in line. Only "Hell" seems to work on a much larger scale, causing many adults to try to act a certain way. Am I the only one who finds it extremely sad that most people need to be scared of Hell in order to be a good person?? Please tell me I'm not. It pains me, someone with no religious attachments, finding myself on many occasions a better "Christian" than half the "Christians" I know. What's worse is when many of the people that would otherwise make an attempt at being a good person, insist on using Jesus as a whore to forgive themselves for something they know they're going to go ahead and do again tomorrow.

Anyway, did you ever stop to think that those people practicing the countless other religions in the world think the same thing about themselves: That their religion is correct? There is absolutely nothing that separates them from us. We are just like them, we think we're right about our religion being supreme and no one else could be. Because that's what we've been taught ever since we were little kids who had no choice but to think the same way as everyone else. "The 'Bible' tells us so..." Oh yeah? Well so does the "Koran" and the "Torah"... They hold the exact same kind of stories of creation that your Bible does.

The fueding happens within Christianity as well. So many different subsets that think they are the "most" correct. I can't stand it when people are so completely blind that they don't even consider that their are other people in the world with opinions that are just as relevant as theirs.

Just because you never give yourself the chance to think you're wrong, doesn't mean you're right.

I'm not saying Christianity is correct or incorrect, I'm saying that you don't know, so stop acting like you do.

If you feel that Christianity is the "correct" religion, or just the "correct" religion for you, then more power to you, practice whatever the "Hell" you want. For me the only thing that would come close to making some kind of sense is if their IS one god and all of these different religions are just different versions of the same story told by different cultures. Seems simpe enough, but people would rather just argue about who's right. If you have a strong feeling or inclination that your religion is right, good for you, but you're not the only one on the planet who feels that way.

[ July 10, 2003, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Titan ]

silver and cold 07-10-2003 05:44 PM

I understand what your saying, Titan.

And if you were Jewish you would belive your religon is right, because thats what the Tora(sp?)says, and other religons with there religious books....So, it just depends what you believe.

Alpha 07-10-2003 05:46 PM

Silver, that's exactly what he just said.

silver and cold 07-10-2003 05:54 PM

Sorry, Alpha, I didn't relize thats what he put, I wasnt paying full attention.

AcTivE 07-10-2003 06:18 PM

Quote:

There is absolutely nothing that separates them from us. We are just like them, we think we're right about our religion being supreme and no one else could be.
Wrong. 'Christianity' is the only religion to have a LIVING savior. Go ahead--do a little research. Kinda common sense to me not to be worshipping a dead guy...but then again, thats just me.

..and the point of me mentioning the 'Afghans' was to cover that statement. OF COURSE people are going to believe what they are raised up in--it's when people reach a point ...they understand their surroundings--what's out there--THEN they make the deciscion that the only thing that will save them from 'Hell' is believing in a God that is merciful and who sent his son to die for YOUR sins...

Quote:

But you will trust the men that wrote the bible 2000 years ago? Seems kind of hipocritical doesn't it?
Not at all. You just want to argue--and aren't really putting any thought into your statements. You trust the pastors that interpret the bible that was written by 'men' 2000 years ago??? --

My point is--I'm not going to rely on ANYONE to interpret what the bible or 'religion' in general...anyone who does is crazy..imho..

Let's just say their is a heaven and hell--you end up in hell. What is it you'll probably remember from this world? I'd say probably a forums thread on Nubblies pointing out the fact that people are PEOPLE--not saviors of the universe. I'm not dissing any other religion, but simply pointing out that if someone has a 'belief' --there will be support behind it, and the confidence that it will not change...

AcTivE 07-10-2003 06:26 PM

which leads to make a point about this:

Quote:

I'm not saying Christianity is correct or incorrect, I'm saying that you don't know, so stop acting like you do.
Being open to ideas is cool--but when it comes to religion, you either have something that you BELIEVE in, or you do not. If you BELIEVE in it, then YES, it is 'correct'. A belief is nothing more than a thought in your head that you know is so right--that no matter what anyone else in the world says, you still hold on to.

Copping out--and saying 'no one knows' is cool in 'world' terms...but where will it get you if there really does end up being a day where you are face to face w/God?

Personally--I'd rather stick with something, and go all out with it...if the beliefs end up being nothing--then so be it.

Alpha 07-10-2003 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
Personally--I'd rather stick with something, and go all out with it...if the beliefs end up being nothing--then so be it.
Then I stick to my unitarian belief that all people go to heaven. Or what ever afterlife God or a Higher Power has chosen for us. I refuse to believe that God would deny someone a passage to Heaven just because they thought long and hard about it and found no real fact to believe in him, or that they weren't scared enough to be forced to believe.


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