Atheists CAN go to Heaven

[Pliedes]

So then, Schroeder, is salvation through Jesus Christ the only way to heaven?

[rla128]

Sure, maybe I don't know what your specific church believes. However, I have learned enough about the Catholic doctrine, which I'd think a Catholic church would follow, to know that true Catholicism and true Christianity do not go together.

[Schroeder]

To Pliedes: Yeah, most of the time, I think so. The only thing that makes me feel bad is what would happen to other religions who never knew Jesus? I'd hate to think that all the Buddhists and Hindus would go to hell just because they didn't believe in Jesus.

To rla128: Clearly you have not learned enough about the Catholic doctrine if you would say that Catholicism and Christianity do not go hand in hand. Where did you learn about the Catholic Doctrine, anyway? If you say from a class taught by Mr. Gilmer, you've probably got tainted information.

[victim]

Originally posted by rla128:
Sure, maybe I don't know what your specific church believes. However, I have learned enough about the Catholic doctrine, which I'd think a Catholic church would follow, to know that true Catholicism and true Christianity do not go together.

Tell us... what exactly do you know? I bet from reading your posts so far, that it would be only a paragraph, probably just a sentence. You keep saying you know "enough", but it sounds like you don't know a damn thing. If you want to make such a bold claim as to say that Catholics aren't Christians, then go on to say that only Christians may be spared from eternal damnation... therefore indirectly stating that all Catholics are going to hell, then you had better back up that claim with something better than "I think I know".

First off, think about that claim. If only a Christian can go to heaven, and Catholics aren't Christians... then that fantasy-cloud-utopia must be pretty underpopulated. There wouldn't be anybody in there from any time before the past 500 years, and only a small percentage of the people since then would even have a chance. So... in your viewpoint, at least from what I'm drawing out of it... there might be a billion people in heaven, but probably less.

Does that seem right to you? That out of all of human existence, less than 10% of all people ever to live even had a fighting chance to get in? That everyone else, including good, honest, self sacrificing people, like Ghandi, Mother Theresa, and countless others are rotting in some fiery pit just because they didn't comply with your "righteous" religious paradigm. Bullshit.

[Titan]

victim makes a beautiful point. I find it hard to believe that the one religion that you're saying is the only way to heaven wasn't even formed until... what? 33 A.D? Seriously, there may very well be a good and righteous god. And there very well may also be a hundred thousand different religions spread all over the globe that tell different stories but are all explanations of what they all don't actually know.

The difference in our cultures are where the difference in our religion comes from, we may all be under one god. Do you think that one god is going to send everyone who's not a Christian to hell? Seriously, what kind of god would create us, and not let the majority of us know what's up concerning him. Those who are Christians are that priveleged?

Please remember when I'm talking about this ideal god I'm not talking about your god or the Christian god, I'm talking about the possibility of a one god we've all been disagreeing about all these years. Why wouldn't, if this Christian god is the one, he make all of us have the equal oppurtunity to become saved? Maybe because he, unlike many human morons, is intelligent enough to see all the different cultures around the world and that it would be ridiculous to punish the majority of them for something that's his fault.

Face it, you can't explain the existence of god within your religious doctrines. You can come up with a rule or answer to everything, but none of it is based off of premises that could ever be acceptable as a whole, and there is no room for actual thought on the matter. Why let your religion do your thinking for you? You leave yourself no room to think.

[ September 17, 2003, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: Titan ]

[Pliedes]

Originally posted by rla128:
Is Catholicism a form of true Christianity?

Fuck that, it doesn't fucking matter. Religions only taint the search for truth.

Here on nubblies, we've established that while some people claim to be ninja's, not all of them really are; vice versa with pirates. The same applies to the Catholic and Protestant churches. It's not about what the churches proclaim or teach, it's about truth.

[Titan]

"But what is truth?
Is it but changing law?
We both have truths...
Are mine the same as yours?"

-Pilot, from Jesus Christ Superstar

Sorry Pli. I know you're talking about the hypothetical "the" truth which, obviously would transcend first person points of view. I just had to throw that in there.

[Schroeder]

To Pliedes, Titan, and Victim: Thanks.

[Pliedes]

Don't say thanks; say something intelligent to continue the discussion.

[BrassMonkees]

"No one comes to the father except through me(Jesus Christ)"

That is the only way to get into heaven. People around the world have heard of this message. It is almost impossible, in today's technilogically advanced world, to have never heard the name of Jesus Christ. Grant it, there might be some out in the wilderness, on some mountaintop, or wherever they may be that might not have heard the gospel. This doesn't change the fact that no one will enter the gates of heaven unless they believe in Christ Jesus as their savior. Narrow is the gate to heaven.

As for only 10% of the world ever having a chance after 33AD, well no. Before Jesus Christ, you had to make sacrifices to help cancel out your sins(atonement). But through His death on the cross, Jesus voided the need for sacrifices and now we can ask for forgiveness instead of killing animals.

And with catholicism, shreoder i don't know why you are stereotyping protestant religions and school teachings about catholicism being different from christianity. Sacred Heart, like many other catholic churches, is a 'born-again' catholic church. not church, but i can't think of the right word for it right now..
but throughout its history, people had to 'buy' their forgiveness. now this clearly disagrees with modern catholicism and christianity, especially since the pope abolished this practice within the last...100 yrs or so i think. either way, the two have similar viewpoints but differ in many areas. demoninational lines, and religions, like pliedes said, tend to only cloud the Truth and your search for it.

Titan, God doesn't want to let billions of people die because they do not know Jesus. But the beauty of it all to me, is that he allows us free choice. The choice to serve Him, the choice to turn on Him, the choice to question Him or about Him.

Just some of my thoughts on these subjects. take them as you will

[Titan]

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
Just some of my thoughts on these subjects. take them as you will

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
It is almost impossible, in today's technilogically advanced world, to have never heard the name of Jesus Christ.

I'll take that as one of the most moronic things I've heard yet. Thanks for that. I'm sure all of the "infidels" over in the middle east who can't even get food are just rushing to their iMacs and laptops to read about the word of god right now.

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
As for only 10% of the world ever having a chance after 33AD, well no. Before Jesus Christ, you had to make sacrifices to help cancel out your sins(atonement). But through His death on the cross, Jesus voided the need for sacrifices and now we can ask for forgiveness instead of killing animals.

Are you forgetting the fact that the people of the ancient world, the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, never worshipped a Christian god? Yeah, they may have made sacrifices, but they sure as fuck were'nt directed toward whatever god you're talking about. What would the Christian god say? "Oh, well, they don't believe in my existence, but they are slaughtering animals for other gods, I'm sure they mean well, they can come to heaven."

P.S. Stop thinking inside your tiny box; you're not making any progress.

[BigDongedHoe]

Originally posted by Titan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
Just some of my thoughts on these subjects. take them as you will

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
It is almost impossible, in today's technilogically advanced world, to have never heard the name of Jesus Christ.

I'll take that as one of the most moronic things I've heard yet. Thanks for that. I'm sure all of the "infidels" over in the middle east who can't even get food are just rushing to their iMacs and laptops to read about the word of god right now.

</font>[/quote]Well you followed up his "moronic" statement by one that was probably of straight ludacrisy (sp?). All of the "infidels" as you refer to have heard of Jesus Christ. I will bet my ass that they have some sort of faith in some religion one way or another. It is nearly impossible to live anywhere in the world and never hear about Jesus Christ. The keyword is nearly, there are a few very slim to none instances where people haven't.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
As for only 10% of the world ever having a chance after 33AD, well no. Before Jesus Christ, you had to make sacrifices to help cancel out your sins(atonement). But through His death on the cross, Jesus voided the need for sacrifices and now we can ask for forgiveness instead of killing animals.

Are you forgetting the fact that the people of the ancient world, the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, never worshipped a Christian god? Yeah, they may have made sacrifices, but they sure as fuck were'nt directed toward whatever god you're talking about. What would the Christian god say? "Oh, well, they don't believe in my existence, but they are slaughtering animals for other gods, I'm sure they mean well, they can come to heaven."

P.S. Stop thinking inside your tiny box; you're not making any progress.[/qb]</font>[/quote]You simply stated a whole lot of idiocricy right there. Do you even know those other religions well enough to judge what they do and don't believe in? 99% of religions on earth main goal is to someday be in Heaven. They worship other gods who talk to the one and only god. Catholics don't "worship" the virgin mary however they pray to her because as they say "who knows god better than his own mother?". Those "other" religions still believe in god, they just have other means of trying to reach him.

oh yeah and titan:

P.S. Why don't you listen to brass seeing as he has more exposure to this than anyone else on the board and he himself is a Christian Ministry's major. Maybe he might be a little partial to christianity but challenging his knowledge of it is probably the wrong thing to do. Why don't you get out of your "tiny box" (the one where everything you say and do in your world is right) and realize that there are things out of your control that just may be true.

[ September 18, 2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: BigDongedHoe ]

[Pliedes]

Before any of this goes any further.

Being a Christian Ministry major or attending a Christian school doesn't mean that you know your ass for a hole in the ground. Those situations do not equate to knowledge, only to exposure.

On another note, I know someone who knows god better than his mother, God himself. Try praying to him.

[Pliedes]

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
challenging his knowledge of it is probably the wrong thing to do

It is through challenging ideas that we truly understand or change our beliefs. Conflict lead to growth, my friend.

What will Titan's objections and challenges bring? It will either solidify current beliefs (a good thing) or change peoples minds (if arguements are convincing enough to change them, then it must be for the better).

Pull your head out of your ass.

[Titan]

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
The keyword is nearly, there are a few very slim to none instances where people haven't.

Whether it's a large portion or not, it doesn't matter. The principle still stands. It's pretty funny that god is going to judge those who have never heard of Jesus Christ to decide where they should go, but everyone who questions the unkown and realizes that they don't know what is universally true must go to hell. You're trying to say that just because you know that Jesus Christ existed, you should automatically accept him as your saviour else you are not saved. Now, if that's true, why did god give us free will and the ability to figure things out for ourselves? There will be a perfectly large amount of amazingly wonderful human creations that don't know Jesus Christ that will be sent to hell? That's really sad and ridiculous no matter what religious stand point you look at it from. See, when I say things like this, I'm providing compassion and reason, all you're providing is a rule that's been passed down to you (you must accept Jesus Christ). Why? (because he is our saviour). How do you know this is true? (because it is written). How do you know the writing is true? (because it says it is, and so do others who are like me).

To say that just because people have heard of him, they should automatically accept him as their saviour tells me you really don't know shit about fuck concerning other cultures. Have you ever even been to another country? 95% of the population in Sweden doesn't even practice a poly or monotheistic religion. Personally, I can't sit here and say that Jesus Christ is Lord and he is my Saviour, I've never met the guy. Oh, that's right, we're supposed to have faith. Now, remind me again why I should have faith stemming from the Bible, instead of the Koran or the Torah or the Bhagavad Gita... Oh yes, because I live in a predominately Christian society, that's an excellent reason. I keep forgetting that the United States is the only nation that thinks 100% correctly about everything.

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
99% of religions on earth main goal is to someday be in Heaven.

Even if this were true, not 99% those religions require you to accept Jesus as your saviour, which is the point we've been discussing.

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
Maybe he might be a little partial to christianity but challenging his knowledge of it is probably the wrong thing to do.

Probably the wrong thing to do? Is he going to shower me with quotes from the Bible? Guess what, it doesn't matter (not just because the Bible doesn't hold all possible ideas, questions and answers) but because I wasn't questioning his knowledge of Christianity. By the way, challenging knowledge (as well as concepts or ideas) is how we come up with new ideas in the first place, it's exactly the right thing to do if you want to make any progress. But as I said, I wasn't challenging his knowledge of Christianity, I know he knows more than me. I was challenging his rational, which was sparse.

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
Why don't you get out of your "tiny box" (the one where everything you say and do in your world is right) and realize that there are things out of your control that just may be true.[

Guess what assfuck, I never once said I was right about anything. Guess what else, I didn't say anything that was false. I gave facts (the fact that Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians weren't Christians - I'd assume we all knew that) and then I asked questions like "What would the Christian god say?" Not to mention, I do accept that there may be things out there that are out of my control and may just be true. I also accept that there may be things out there out of my control that may just not be true. Just because I'm questioning someone doesn't mean I think I'm right about whatever, I didn't even fucking give an opinion, I was just proposing possible questions that he obviously hadn't addressed. Shit... they have a word for this... oh yes, it's called a discussion. You know, you go back and forth hoping that both sides gain something new and helpful. I'm sorry that all the hope for that is on my side. But if you think about it, it would be much better if none of us challenged anything. Then the Earth would go back to being flat, the universe would revolve around the Earth, we'd never be able to make an aircraft, we'd never be able to travel to the moon. Nothing new would ever be discovered or created, like cures for health problems or Grace College. Yeah, it would be much better if we never used our ability to question or reason, it would be much better to accept everything at face value. You're right, I quit, we're done. I agree. Blah fuckity blah.

I'd also like to re-iterate this because it seems that some people got hung up on statistics and overlooked it:

Originally posted by victim:
Does that seem right to you?...That everyone else, including good, honest, self sacrificing people, like Ghandi, Mother Theresa, and countless others are rotting in some fiery pit just because they didn't comply with your "righteous" religious paradigm. Bullshit.

And not to pull your halo down, but who would ever want to be a part of a religion that concerns itself only on whether you accept someone as a saviour and not on how much of a positively influential spirit you are?

[ September 18, 2003, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Titan ]

[Schroeder]

Originally posted by Titan:
And not to pull your halo down, but who would ever want to be a part of a religion that concerns itself only on whether you accept someone as a saviour and not on how much of a positively influential spirit you are?

Titan: By accepting Jesus as one's saviour and trying to live in his image, you become a positively influential spirit, as He was.

It has always been my hope that good people (yeah, I know, a relative term) of other religions can go to Heaven as well. I base this mainly on the fact that if I am worshipping the wrong God (by no means am I saying I am), the true God would view me still as a good person for the life I have led, even if it was misguided. I don't know a lot about other religions. I don't know which one is correct (if any of them) or if life is made up of little bits and pieces of various religions. I just hope that whatever god is the real one, that that god is a compassionate, and understanding, one. It kills me to think that a Buddhist or Hindu would be immediately cast into hell, just because of their religion, when they had lived a more noble life than some Christians. Likewise, I would expect some compassion from Buddha or Mohammed or whoever if I am wrong. I would hope to be judged on more than just,"Oh, a Catholic. Eternal Damnation awaits!".

400 posts have come and have gone
Important? No, I'd sell them all for a song.

[Schroeder]

I hope that God will also forgive me for double-posting.

[ September 18, 2003, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Schroeder ]

[rla128]

I believe that to be a true Christian, you believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, who I believe to be our messiah--our savior. Many of these teachings were pertaining to our everyday life, as to what we should do to better glorify God and the such. However, one stands out, being the one which is the basis for our discussion right now.

That is, as it is stated in the bible, "God so loved the world that gave his own son, and whoever believes in him shall not parish, but have everlasting life." This principal, this salvation from God through Jesus Christ, is the basis for CHRISTianity. And so, to be a true Christian, you believe that salvation is not gotten through the church, or by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ, and by faith in Jesus Christ alone. Herein lies my problem with Catholocism.

From everything, and anything, I've heard about the Catholic doctrine, this is NOT the basis for salvation. Instead, according to the Catholic church, salvation is received through the church. This salvation is received through certain works (the specific name for such works escapes me at the moment). It is through these works, then, that the salvation from God is "channeled" of sorts through the church, and then to the people.

It is this salvation through the church, and not directly through faith in Christ, that leads me to say that Catholocism and Christianity do not coincide. Christianity states that we are saved through our faith in Christ alone, and Catholocism states that we are saved through the church.

So, there you have it.

[Schroeder]

Originally posted by rla128:
Instead, according to the Catholic church, salvation is received through the church. This salvation is received through certain works (the specific name for such works escapes me at the moment).

Correction: According to your misinformed thoughts on the Catholic church, salvation is received through the church. Christ is definitely at the center of the Catholic church, and our only means of salvation, not the church itself. Those works that you couldn't remember, you know why you couldn't remember their names? There are no such works. Salvation comes form Jesus in the Catholic church, as salvation comes from Jesus in any Christian church.

Rla: Do you notice how I don't claim to know anything about Protestant churches? This for me, means that I don't just cite "facts" I'm not really sure of just because that was what somebody told me. I mean, come on, if somebody said it, it must be true, right? Don't talk about what you don't know.

[BigDongedHoe]

Whether it's a large portion or not, it doesn't matter. The principle still stands. It's pretty funny that god is going to judge those who have never heard of Jesus Christ to decide where they should go, but everyone who questions the unkown and realizes that they don't know what is universally true must go to hell. You're trying to say that just because you know that Jesus Christ existed, you should automatically accept him as your saviour else you are not saved. Now, if that's true, why did god give us free will and the ability to figure things out for ourselves? There will be a perfectly large amount of amazingly wonderful human creations that don't know Jesus Christ that will be sent to hell? That's really sad and ridiculous no matter what religious stand point you look at it from. See, when I say things like this, I'm providing compassion and reason, all you're providing is a rule that's been passed down to you (you must accept Jesus Christ). Why? (because he is our saviour). How do you know this is true? (because it is written). How do you know the writing is true? (because it says it is, and so do others who are like me).

To say that just because people have heard of him, they should automatically accept him as their saviour tells me you really don't know shit about fuck concerning other cultures. Have you ever even been to another country? 95% of the population in Sweden doesn't even practice a poly or monotheistic religion. Personally, I can't sit here and say that Jesus Christ is Lord and he is my Saviour, I've never met the guy. Oh, that's right, we're supposed to have faith. Now, remind me again why I should have faith stemming from the Bible, instead of the Koran or the Torah or the Bhagavad Gita... Oh yes, because I live in a predominately Christian society, that's an excellent reason. I keep forgetting that the United States is the only nation that thinks 100% correctly about everything.

I have accepted Jesus Christ as my saviour however I don't cal myself christian or catholic. I have no demonination, for me the soul thing that matters is my relationship with god. I will never be good enough for god and people have to accept that. I used to raise many questions you did as much as 3 months ago. The one thing I've learned from all of this:

They'll never be answered

You said it yourself, you have to have faith. God hopes that you question him, he likes to shake things up to make you question your faith. You'll never have every question answered and believe me there are 1,000s to raise. It all comes down to your relationship with Jesus Christ.

My two main arguements were always "what's to say this religion is better than the other" but that's why I'm non-demoninational. All religions goal is to someday recide in eternal life or reincarnation or some sort of after life. They have different ways of doing it and going about it however I think all of that is bullshit. If you believe in god, and you read his word there is nothing more that matters than your relationship with him.

My other main arguement was that I couldn't fathom how someone could rape 25 people on earth and then go to prison, accept jesus christ and there truly saved, they go to heaven. Then you have someone who lived a minor sinful life with few major sins and was a good guy, donated to charity, ext. He goes to hell simply because he never accepts jesus christ. I think that's a load of shit however that's where if your catholic, purgatory comes into play, I don't believe in catholicism however I believe in purgatory. I think that purgatory exists and it would solve a lot of problems such as your debate saying people that never were exposed to god go to hell, however purgatory would take care of that.

Probably the wrong thing to do? Is he going to shower me with quotes from the Bible? Guess what, it doesn't matter (not just because the Bible doesn't hold all possible ideas, questions and answers) but because I wasn't questioning his knowledge of Christianity. By the way, challenging knowledge (as well as concepts or ideas) is how we come up with new ideas in the first place, it's exactly the right thing to do if you want to make any progress. But as I said, I wasn't challenging his knowledge of Christianity, I know he knows more than me. I was challenging his rational, which was sparse.

I'll give you a formal apology here, challenging was probably not the best word choice. I guess what I was trying to get at was that attacking him because of his beliefs bothered me. And telling him he's thinking in a "tiny box" bothered me as well. If you know BrassMonkee's he's a devoted christian however he is very liberal which I respect. Conservative Christians drive me up the fucking wall but liberal christians I can relate with.

I reiterated with a "tiny box" because your thinking so broadly I consider that as if to think in a "box". You can ask 10,000 questions but they may never be answerted, when it comes down to it, it's about faith. If you have faith in christ then you will go to heaven, if you don't, then you might venture to purgatory. That's the way I see it, and that's what I believe.

[ September 18, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: BigDongedHoe ]

[Saint DH]

Wow, I think this thread has quite possibly the longest, most boring posts on Nubblies. Anyways, I'd like to add some relevency to this thread, by telling a joke. Here we go.

There are three guys that are stranded on a boat, they have no food, no water. There are no boats in site. Basically, they know they're fucked. After a couple of days, one of the guys go, "Maybe we should say a prayer or something? I've never been to church, and I don't know any prayers at all.
The next guy goes, "Yeah, that's a good idea, we should pray, but I don't know any prayers either."
The last guy goes, "Alright, well I don't know any prayers either, but I live right next door to a catholic church, and when it's really hot outside they open the doors up and I can hear them pray, so I think I can do it."
So they all bow their heads, and the guy goes, "OK, next one is G-32."

edit: in case you didn't get this joke, catholics supposedly like to gamble alot, and instead of worshiping at church, they're playing bingo.

[ September 19, 2003, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Dirty Harry ]

[BrassMonkees]

Yes, I am a christian ministries major/ religion philosophy major. I'm also a Finance major. Me majoring in christian ministries doesn't make me better or worse than anybody. Just helps me learn more about religions across the world, not just christianity.

Titan, think of me as you will, but don't consider me to be close minded to the world outside of america. I'm not a stupid individual. I've studied other religions, questioned whether there was a god, and questioned whether Christianity is the true religion. For me, i have peace in knowing that it is true. I am not ignorant. I do not solely base the facts straight from the bible. I do not just say, 'well the bible says it so it must be right.' grant it, i do believe that, but it is because it is backed up with factual information. I don't just accept what is thrown at me. You're right, it is imperative that we question what is thrown at us. That is the only way we solidify what we believe in, and more importantly...find truth.

but titan, induldge me for a moment. tell me what you believe in? im just curious. You never say what you believe, just rip apart what others say.

[Titan]

Originally posted by Schroeder:
Titan: By accepting Jesus as one's saviour and trying to live in his image, you become a positively influential spirit, as He was.

I can understand that Schroeder, but that didn't answer any problem addressed.

Originally posted by Schroeder:
It has always been my hope that good people (yeah, I know, a relative term) of other religions can go to Heaven as well. I base this mainly on the fact that if I am worshipping the wrong God (by no means am I saying I am), the true God would view me still as a good person for the life I have led, even if it was misguided. I don't know a lot about other religions. I don't know which one is correct (if any of them) or if life is made up of little bits and pieces of various religions. I just hope that whatever god is the real one, that that god is a compassionate, and understanding, one. It kills me to think that a Buddhist or Hindu would be immediately cast into hell, just because of their religion, when they had lived a more noble life than some Christians. Likewise, I would expect some compassion from Buddha or Mohammed or whoever if I am wrong. I would hope to be judged on more than just,"Oh, a Catholic. Eternal Damnation awaits!".

Schroeder, I'm glad to see you rationalizing and utilizing your emotions in an open-minded way that's true to how you feel. I'm also glad to see someone post how they feel and what they think outside of what their religion may or may not allow, it's very frustrating fighting a battle with a one man army here.

Originally posted by Schroeder:
I hope that God will also forgive me for double-posting.

Not likely. You'll probably be sent to hell for that one.

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
You'll never have every question answered and believe me there are 1,000s to raise. It all comes down to your relationship with Jesus Christ.

By asking questions, things get answered. I'm not going to quit asking questions just because the topic is complex or just because I may think I won't arrive at an answer. You say asking questions won't get you any progress, I say not asking questions won't get you any progress, we just differ in what we feel on that subject.

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
I think that purgatory exists and it would solve a lot of problems such as your debate saying people that never were exposed to god go to hell, however purgatory would take care of that.

Okay, thank you for your a good honest answer there. If you could go ahead and explain specifically how purgatory works then that would be a fabulous road to travel one way or another.

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
I'll give you a formal apology here, challenging was probably not the best word choice. I guess what I was trying to get at was that attacking him because of his beliefs bothered me. And telling him he's thinking in a "tiny box" bothered me as well. If you know BrassMonkee's he's a devoted christian however he is very liberal which I respect. Conservative Christians drive me up the fucking wall but liberal christians I can relate with.

I'd really like to thank you for being honest with what was going on here because I've been sweating here trying not to piss people off because that wasn't my goal. Conservative Christians drive me up the wall as well, and I'm sure I could have thought of a much more mature way than to accuse him of thinking in a "tiny box". When I do things like that it's because I'm frustrated, not because I think I have all of the answers and someone else doesn't. It gets very frustrating to me as a person to see people not thinking about things. That's something that I feel is fundamentally wrong with our species, and it's something that could help us a lot in general. I was not trying to attack him because of his beliefs, I would never try that, everyone is entitled to what they believe and I've always accepted that. But when people don't even give thought a chance it really frustrates me, and then I lash out. Especially since there have been tons of people on here who seem to not think outside of their "box" or outside of western cultural views, it's just frustrating, again.

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
I reiterated with a "tiny box" because your thinking so broadly I consider that as if to think in a "box". You can ask 10,000 questions but they may never be answerted, when it comes down to it, it's about faith. If you have faith in christ then you will go to heaven, if you don't, then you might venture to purgatory. That's the way I see it, and that's what I believe.

That's fine. Please don't think that by saying anything I've said I was trying to discredit what you believe. I seriously am just interested in the fight for gaining knowledge or insight. I don't understand the topic of faith, because I just cannot see putting everything on the line for one cause, not knowing whether it's the best choice. Without the answers, I can't make the choice, that's just how I'm wired I guess.

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
I've studied other religions, questioned whether there was a god, and questioned whether Christianity is the true religion. For me, i have peace in knowing that it is true. I am not ignorant. I do not solely base the facts straight from the bible. I do not just say, 'well the bible says it so it must be right.' grant it, i do believe that, but it is because it is backed up with factual information. I don't just accept what is thrown at me. You're right, it is imperative that we question what is thrown at us. That is the only way we solidify what we believe in, and more importantly...find truth.

Well I apologize for jumping to conclusions and assuming that you were being close-minded. That's what it sounded like to me. That's what I'm used to dealing with as well. When you say that you have peace in knowing that it's true along with the fact that you have factual basis, that makes more sense. I do not have factual basis, and even if I did, it would have to be very strong to get me to put everything on the line. When I say things like "I've never met the guy" referring to Jesus Christ, that's the kind of proof I need. It's not an "I'll believe it when I see it" thing, it's just that I can't rely on historical facts or studies for this kind of thing, I'd have to experience the answer for myself, which I sure as hell haven't. When it comes to believing in electricity, that's easy. I flip the switch, and the light comes on. I flip the switch, the light comes on. I flip it again, it comes on again. With religion, I won't know the effect of the belief untill I experience it happen. Death would be where (most) think that you would find your answer, which is pretty shitty since that doesn't really help. But like I said, I'm not putting everything on the line unless I truly feel that I know.

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
titan, induldge me for a moment. tell me what you believe in? im just curious. You never say what you believe, just rip apart what others say.

I'm sorry you feel I'm ripping you apart, I'm just asking questions that you're failing too. Sorry if I approached it in an ass-holish way, we'll get over that. I hope I've answered this question enough by now. If you want terminology, I'm called a freethinker. The emphasis here goes on compassion and rational.

[ September 18, 2003, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Titan ]

[rla128]

Perhaps I have been misinformed about Catholicism, then (or your version of it is different, or whatever). Well, because that was my main argument, I'm just gonna abstain from this argument until futher educated on the subject.

Good day, sir.

[ September 19, 2003, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: rla128 ]

[Pliedes]

Originally posted by rla128:
Perhaps I have been misinformed about Catholicism, then. Well, because that was my main argument, I'm just gonna abstain from this argument until futher educated on the subject.

Good day, sir.

Wow, that was really big of you. I'm impressed that you're being mature about it all.

I'll throw this out there though.

Schroeder, does the catholic church pray to the Virgin Mary? And remember we're not talking about just what you think, but the historical catholic church.