[Pliedes]

In response to previous comments:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
So Pliedes, you honestly expect me to conclusively prove that silver and cold's song makes her depressed before I say that it does? Got'chya...(go ahead and tell me how you would go about doing that...is there a depression-meter out there I can put her on or something?)

That, sir, is exactly the point we were trying to make. Your argument had no logical foundation. Avoid making such statements in the future.

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pliedes:
Please quote where either of us said that their submissions were not good enough.

Originally posted by Pliedes:
I just know [silver and cold] could put more effort into it and find better songs.

It's funny watching you contradict yourself this much...
</font>[/quote]Are you language skills completely askew? I asked where I said they were NOT GOOD ENOUGH, and you quoted someplace where I said COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER. Those are not at all the same things. My challenge still stands, quote where I said they were not good enough.

If you still have a hard time understanding, which you obviously do, I’ll quote what I did say.

Originally posted by Pliedes:
It's not that you have horrid suggestions, I just know you could put more effort into it and find better songs.

Do you need it spelled out any more for you? In school, you can get a 65% in a class, and pass (doing well enough, to say) but not do as well as you could have (say a grade of 80%). This is a simple example, outside example of the situation at hand. Does that help?

Note: The above also covers UB’s second of three posts where he quotes my posts to “show where I stated their submissions were not good enough.” If more is needed, I will divulge.

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Now onto Ugly’s points of contention:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
You did a fine job reading through all of my posts, ignoring the five or six times I slapped you in the face, picking my weakest arguements, and replying to those. Good job daring mighty things there.

First, personal attacks impress no one but the most dim witted reader and do nothing for your argument except hurt your credibility. Since you say I am avoiding your “stronger” points, I will address them each individually.

Point One:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
I just think it's a little excessive trying to get people to change their picks. If their picks are that worthless to you, then why even ask them to submit an entry? Why not just make a comp of all of the songs that you think are good songs for a Dep Comp? That's the point I'm trying to make...

“I just think it's a little excessive trying to get people to change their picks.”
-This is simply an opinion, it has no weight in the debate at hand.
“If their picks are that worthless to you, then why even ask them to submit an entry?”
-If your logic is correct here, then by asking them to submit an entry with knowledge of a possible distaste, we affirm the position that their picks are not worthless. I furthermore state that we do not see their picks as having no value, this is apparent by the time and effort which goes into getting their submissions.
“ Why not just make a comp of all of the songs that you think are good songs for a Dep Comp?”
-As previously mentioned, we seek the different styles and tastes of all members in order to make it a nubblies comp, not a Pliedes comp. That does not mean that any objective value is thrown aside in making them though. The objective value of the submissions is where the crux of our issue lies, and I will more thoroughly address it at the end.
“That's the point I'm trying to make”
-See above comments.

Point Two:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Not all of us spend days polishing our selection for these comps...in fact, most of us don't.

I popped off Elliot Smith's "Miss Misery" without giving a second's thought...if I had given it some thought, I probably would've come up with something that depresses me more.

Silver and Cold/Malibu did the same thing...bash my pick if you're going to bash their's...we both chose our song without thinking for much more than a couple seconds.

“Not all of us spend days polishing our selection for these comps...in fact, most of us don't.”
-Agreed.
“I popped off Elliot Smith's "Miss Misery" without giving a second's thought...if I had given it some thought, I probably would've come up with something that depresses me more.”
-All you’ve shown here is your lack of effort in making this comp the best it can be. This is why Titan doesn’t want to waste his time organizing these if this is the effort which all others will put in.
“Silver and Cold/Malibu did the same thing...bash my pick if you're going to bash their's...we both chose our song without thinking for much more than a couple seconds.”
-I will bash your lack of effort. Shame on you. But now we again get to the underlying issue at hand. The difference between your selections was that your pick was a very good pick. Again, objective value. We’ll visit this more at the end of the post.

Point Three:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Are you suggesting that malibu and silver and cold purposely chose songs that do not make them depressed just to spite you?

-This must first be considered within the context it was stated, so we’ll revisit.
--After Titan states that an extreme example of a bad pick would have bothered UB, he gives an interpretation of it as Malibu and S&C intentionally picked the bad song and then slamming such a situation.
--We see that Ugly’s situation may prove true, but he didn’t take Titan’s initial statement correctly. Titan was speaking about the value of the songs, and UB was speaking of the reasoning for picking a song justifying it. Again, the crux of the issue is at dispute.

Point Four:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
It's not a platinum-hopeful album, it's a friendly website-compilation.

-This seems to be you waving the flag of mediocrity. Just because it’s not going to be sold to millions doesn’t mean it can’t be good. As a teacher once told me once “If you’re not going to do it well, don’t do it at all.” Obviously we are making a comp, and so we should at least put a reasonable amount of effort into making it good.

Point Five:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
You guys take this shit way too seriously...it's just a comp. I would rather listen to the song that silver and cold chose as her Dep song, than listen to some song that silver and cold was pressured into picking by pliedes, but really doesn't depress her at all.

“You guys take this shit way too seriously...it's just a comp.”
-Minimalizing the situation and saying I’m “too serious” does nothing for your arguments.
“I would rather listen to the song that silver and cold chose as her Dep song, than listen to some song that silver and cold was pressured into picking by pliedes, but really doesn't depress her at all.”
-As you stated earlier (see first quote of post) you cannot actually prove whether the song depresses her or not. Regardless, a song which is genuinely depressing to one person in no way automatically equates it to a great comp selection.

Point Six:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Who the fuck do you think you guys are? This comp was to be songs that make each individual depressed, so they put down the songs that make them depressed.

Sure they may not be songs that depress you, but they depress malibu and silver and cold respectively, so fuck off.

“Who the fuck do you think you guys are”
-Rhetorical question, but if you must, Titan and Pliedes.
“This comp was to be songs that make each individual depressed, so they put down the songs that make them depressed.”
-Actually, sir, nowhere does it state that the single requirement is that it causes individual depression. Now you could see it as implied because each person gets an individual submission which is their call alone, but the one thing we are going for a good comp (though you aren’t, you are content with mediocrity).
“Sure they may not be songs that depress you, but they depress malibu and silver and cold respectively, so fuck off.”
-Again, that does not automatically make them great suggestions. It does mean that they depress their respective suggestor, which does allude to their possible depressing nature, but it in no way in an absolute indicator of being a good suggestion.

All six points have been covered, now the only dispute lies at what I called the “crux of our issue”.

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Why don't you humor me with some of your rambling bullshit replies to those comments.

Consider yourself humored.

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In response to UB’s post three of three:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Pliedes, you're a pretty willful person,

Good use of wording there. Synonyms include: headstrong, stubborn, determined.
I take such as a compliment.

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
and I can tell this is going to be one of those things where you will never stop replying to my messages until I admit that you're right...

Actually, until you see the error in your thinking. Your position is passionate and admirable, but not logically founded.

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
which just isn't going to happen.

Here you admit one of two things: (1)You are not wrong (which I will show you are), or (2)You simply will not give up, even when proven wrong (which is inherently stupid).
I hope you are simply convinced of the first, instead of arrogant in the second.

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
It just bothers me that you guys criticize people's selections, that's all.

Ok. So? It bothers me that you have a hard time comprehending arguments and basing yours in something other than opinion. Both what bothers us really isn’t the real issue.

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Ah, and now the issue at hand…

The argument is very simple. I’m going to keep it specific to our situation.
There is some objective value to song choices.
Now, first and foremost realize that I am not saying they are entirely objective, and there are many levels on which this is not the case, but I am acknowledging the undeniable objective aspect.

Example: If Titan suggested the Macarena for his NubDep, it is very clear that it is not a good choice for the album. Sure, it may genuinely be depressing to him, but it a) does not sound depressing, b) the lyrics are not depressing, and c) outside of abnormal circumstances would most likely be found not depressing by a test group. But it is depressing to him. Again though, remember that I said they are not completely objective, but there is a reasonable extent of objectivity by which we can filter songs. It’s the same as if someone would have chosen “I fucking hate you” by Godsmack as their choice for NubLove. The example, as absurd as it is, shows the point to be made.
[Note: I do not see the above process as a litmus test for song selection, merely a demonstration to analyze the example.]

Much of your argument stems from the notion that we are being unfair, overly judgmental, or critical where we have no place; to that I say, it is a fine line we walk, but that is no excuse to strive for the greatest result possible. You might not agree that selections are overwhelmingly objective, but it is within that reasonable area which we attempt to maximize the comp.

Put simply: By acknowledging that there is indeed such a thing as a bad choice, we affirm that there is at least some objective value to submissions.

I realize this could split into a theoretical discussion about absolution/relativity as a whole, but let’s try to keep it to the situation at hand for the time being.

UB, I look forward to an intelligent response, and remember ad hominem attacks do not work.

Edited for formatting.

[ December 04, 2003, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Pliedes ]