So, What Do You Believe?

[Titan]

Originally posted by drumkideric:
The events occured later in histoy. The coming of Jesus is even in the high schools histoy books. This was predicted earlier in the Bible. The Bible was recorded by eyewitnesses, that is proven in the links i posted above.

Because the people who wrote the Bible are the same ones who made the internet links, and they're still alive, so we can totally attest to the validity of both.

[ February 05, 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Titan ]

[Combat Chuck]

So where can I get one of these......tack hammers that Fruit speaks of?

[ February 05, 2004, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Combat Chuck ]

[long-since-forgotten]

At your local tack hammer supply store, located on 666 Lucifer Dr, Home of the Damned.

This is really off the topic
- Drumkideric - I was wondering, did you choose to be a Christian, or are you a Christian because your parents said so?

[drumkideric]

I chose to be a Christian. It's imposible for parents to for you to become a Christian.

[Ugly Bastard]

Eric, from reading your posts, you sound well programmed by your community. Good work letting them think for you.

-Ugly Bastard

[drumkideric]

I think for myself.

[Jake]

I would have to agree with Fruit overall (im agnostic)... but I dont think christians today are insecure, but that the founders of the religion were. I would have to disagree with the belief that christians are not able to think for themselves. Personally though i dont agree with christian views... I do however believe that its impact on society that have governed our actions has led to the development of the world specifically western culture. I believe that christians can be quite articulate and educated. I would not dismiss them as blind fools.

[the Butcher]

Alright, I had a hugeass post to counteract everything that dumbfuckeric said, but Pliedes is a bitch and indirectly made me lose it all. So I'll just summarize. If anyone has questions on what I say, I'll be glad to elaborate.

1) The crucifixion and/or coming of Jesus is NOT in the high school text books. You're a fucking moron if you think it's there, because I've taken Ancient World History and Pliedes has taken European History. It is in neither of those books. Fuck you x1.

2) You claim that the historical texts predict Jesus coming, so they're true. Well, I don't know about you, but I haven't seen Jesus wandering the streets anytime recently. In fact, he's NOT FUCKING HERE. Just because a book said it's going to happen doesn't make it true, especially since the "prediction" hasn't happened. Fuck you x2.

3) You said that Jesus fulfilled 300 prophecies. Wow, so basically people said something was going to happen, and regardless of whether it actually happened, they wrote it did. We have no proof that Jesus fulfilled any of those prophecies, except that the Bible says it happened. Great fucking argument. If I predict that tomorrow I'm going to piss on the bathroom walls, then write it in a book, and that happens, does that make me a great messiah? I didn't think so. Fuck you x3.

You do not think for yourself. If you did, you'd be using your own knowledge to back up what you believe instead of using prefabricated texts online. As Ugly Bastard said, you are very well programmed by this conservative, bullshit-believing community of religious fucks who believe whatever people tell them. If your parents were not Christians, I guarantee that you wouldn't be one either. Don't try to deny that fact, because it's a fact. Pull your head out of your ass, you predetermined fuck. Fuck you x4.

Now on to BDH.

You said that Christians don't need scientific proof because they have faith. So, does having faith make something true? Because I have faith that I'll wake up with three beautiful women in my bed tomorrow morning, but until it happens and I have proof, it's not the truth. Having faith does not mean anything. Faith is a lost cause.

[Pliedes]

Originally posted by Jake:
I would not dismiss them as blind fools.

Bullshit, they're blind fools.

[ February 05, 2004, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Pliedes ]

[Jake]

I would like to respond to drumkideric... He mentions that the universe because of its intrinsic complexity must be governed by some over arching diving force, and as I child i agreed with this view.
However as i began to study economics i to make a comparison. How is that things get produced in such a global free market society.... Free market capitalism is incredibly complex however, it is without an overarching power that the system naturally works itself out.
Just an analogy i had thought about... give me your thoughts

[Pliedes]

Jake, good idea, but there is one big god around which all capitalism is based; greed.

[AcTivE]

i believe jake is a gay man

[drumkideric]

In response to the butcher......when I was talking about Jesus coming I wasn't talking about the rapture, I was talking about when he was born, and all that. Jesus IS metioned in our history books. I even did a report on Christianity in Acient World History. When the Bible predicted things it wasn't things so little as "pissing on the bathroom walls". It predicted the destruction of citys. That accually happended. I used online text because It had much more material than i could of thought of. I do think for myself. If i didn't I wouldn't be going against everybody on here. If my parents wern't Christians you guarentee I wouldn't be one either? Wow, kind of a bold statement there. I know many people who are Christians but there parents arn't. I'm letting my community think for me? Well, I'm not because part of my community is posting on here and there definetly not thinking for me. I really don't care what you think Jake, why don't you go be gay.

[Fruitacious B]

Interesting little thing about history books, champ. I'm reading through my McDougal Littell "The Americans" History Book from my History class. I was perusing it in search of Christianity, and to your credit, it's in there. However, after reading it, I was blessed to see that it presented christianity from a mainly-facts only basis. It didn't talk about scripture and the belief structure as much as it did about the progression of christianity. It discusses the Reformation, and the split between Catholicism and Protestantism, and it also brings the Crusades into the picture as well.

Now if you were to read the information in this book. It shows that if you were to take a step back and look at Christianity as a whole, it has been plagued with arguing, greed, blind control, needless slaughter, and biased change. Drumkid, have you ever considered that your faith could possibly be totally diferent than what the religion was initially created to be? After all, we are talking about a span of over 2000 years between what actually might have happened to the point where you base your religion on it. Roll those around a bit. I can elaborate further on any of the points I previously stated, and in the end I really don't care what you think drumkideric, why don't you go be gay?

Originally posted by Pliedes:
Jake, good idea, but there is one big god around which all capitalism is based; greed.

Same as Christianity.

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Jake:
I would like to respond to drumkideric... He mentions that the universe because of its intrinsic complexity must be governed by some over arching diving force, and as I child i agreed with this view.
However as i began to study economics i to make a comparison. How is that things get produced in such a global free market society.... Free market capitalism is incredibly complex however, it is without an overarching power that the system naturally works itself out.
Just an analogy i had thought about... give me your thoughts

i'd like to reply to this gay post

sure that's complex, but so is the development of ideas to get to the point of that. so is the idea of an 'idea'

[the Butcher]

Originally posted by drumkideric:
When the Bible predicted things it wasn't things so little as "pissing on the bathroom walls". It predicted the destruction of citys. That accually happended.

But, as I already stated, the "predicted" events were recorded later in the same book, correct? Exactly.

Originally posted by drumkideric:
I do think for myself. If i didn't I wouldn't be going against everybody on here.

You think for yourself by using premade "facts" online to prove your points? You thought up all of those "facts" by yourself to post? I didn't think so, you used other people's information to try to claim you were right. That's not thinking for yourself at all. Get better arguments, you're starting to annoy most everyone with your horrible "facts" that you can't back up without a poorly worded falicy.

Originally posted by drumkideric:
Wow, kind of a bold statement there.

I'm a bold fucking guy. And I don't doubt my statement I made in any way, shape or form. I can guaran-fucking-tee you would not have pursued the Christian religion had your parents not instilled the values associated with it to you.

Originally posted by drumkideric:
I really don't care what you think Jake, why don't you go be gay.

Wow, now that was a really good insult. Seriously guys, that was good. I wish I could make things like that up so people would look up to me.

[St. Anky]

i dont want to believe

[St. Anky]

...and then st. anky comes down from his 2c i trip

[AcTivE]

i believe that somewhere out of nowhere, something wanted to exist

really, i think this is just a phislosophical idea placed in my head by my brain, and it will pass...but it doesn't. it continues throughout in my thinking, not really understanding what it means, but in a sense, feeling it all along as i go

i don't even come to understand the above at all, until about 7th-8th grade, when i learn that people can think for themselves, and come up with ideas in their heads...that other people will follow, simply because it makes sense, to THEM.

Religion? I've grown up with it all along. Good stories, and always kept me thinking through about Tuesday about how I should change my life, and live like Noah (yea, I don't remember anymore).

10-12 years of that, will start to build an impression on you, regardless if you want it or not. i remember often times not WANTING to believe what was told me at some service, simply because it did not fit my lifestyle.

It would still effect me somewhat, through monday or tuesday or so, but it was not really a change in my life i could really accept, and put into my life...at age 15, lets get serious, why the hell does it even matter?

pretty much that's it for religion, except i know 10-12 years of random sunday school lessons...

so, education pretty much has overrun religion. world now is so much more different than it was then. there can be so many interpretations....of everything, why should i believe this single, isolated, teaching, that has led me in a specific, unwillingly, guided--direction, to, christianity.

i don't believe it. it's bullshit, so much other things exist, because they are, and i know them. they are right there. india? i could look up on the internet and find out how many people are believeing in reincarnation, how can so many people be led in a direction like that--SOOO many *truly* believe that IS

then i start thinking about why i'm even thinking about any of this. why have i even spent the time, to contemplate any of this? has education led me to the point, where i spend time trying to come up with shit--just because i've read about other people doing it?

i decided, sure. then i started thinking about why there was everything that there has been--in my life. it has all led me to a point of thinking, what i am right now. is this some philosophical idea i'm trying to bullshit around with? i don't know, but i continue.

Well here i am, I'm, right now, and I wonder about existence---and why I am even able to think—really, wonder what a ‘thought’ even is.

alrighty, back to, i believe that somewhere out of nowhere, something wanted to exist

From there, I get these fucked ideas about why I’m even coming to thinking about why I am even ‘thinking’

Make sense? Probably not, but anyways, it’s what I believe.

Continuing…I’m thinking about everything because I’m searching, somewhere all of these thoughts that I’m having are directed towards somethinG. I want to discover what it is, that makes me who I am.

Currently science tells me about the cell—from birth…that’s where I come from, that’s who I am. Everything a person ever is, is contained within one cell, that just develops…into what anyone is.

but to me, it’s beyond that, because I’m smart enough to think about that CELL developing.

That’s the whole reason science exists, right? Because people know so much about the world, they see how it happens, because that is the way it IS, right?

Oh yea, I learned about science. That’s weird…I’m just a person developed from a single cell…everything that I’m ever am is going to come from that cell. That’s messed up a cell would ever develop to the point that it would need to reason with itself about it’s existence, but…

Then what the hell am I doing?

I suddenly decide to place an abstract idea in my head—something that does not line up to the ‘laws’ and ‘physics’ of these world as I know so well—because, why would existence—beginning, a cell, ever want to develop to a point where it’s not centrally focused around reproducing itself, multiplying, using the resources it has—to it’s full extent.

That’s where evolution comes from…right? Something developing, multiplying, reproducing, to a point where it can most easily take advantage of the resources they have…

People aren’t that—or am I simply a cell in existence, trying to form an idea against something that just is, survival. Do I have all these ideas in my head, just to continue existence—for whatever the hell reason, like evolution tells me.

I finally make a decision, I decide that I am more than that, and I am thinking on my own—for a reason right now.

The abstract idea of something so big—that I don’t even understand, that passes beyond my belief, of even ‘gravity’ –because it doesn’t exist, it’s only something that we ‘feel’ because….it is, and it’s what needed to be there, to get us to the point that we needed to be

I think of something greater, and how in my understanding, there could never be ‘something’ that could ever be made to love you. It’s a terrible idea even when I’m reading it now, but I’m accepting to it, because I can feel it now, and I know there is better.

Why would a God ever do anything like make plagues, sickness, disease---ALL OVER? That’s pretty fucking cruel, I wouldn’t ever worship a God like that, right?

Of course this is all from my 10-12 years of learning, that has even placed the idea of a ‘God’ into my head to begin with—but I’ll go with it—because a lot of other people seemed to be concerned about religion, there is some sort of ‘higher power’ –and to me, I will understand him as an existence, called, ‘God’

Just to clear that up for anyone that may not be on the same page as me J

I think about my own understanding, of happiness, and sadness. They are obviously two different things, one better than the other….

If there were a God, why would he allow thousands to die?

I’ve stopped thinking that, and decided to start thanking God for allowing me to see, good things, and bad things.

I’m existing, and being able to distinguish between things I want, and do not want.

Say I was controlling everything, would I create something that would cause soooo much trouble for itself, unless I gave it a reason?

To me, I would say—yes, there would be a reason for me to do that.

Then I understand. Then I can begin to feel what the tree of ‘Good’ and ‘Evil’ from the story of Adam and Eve truly mean to me.

That’s where it all started, and it makes so much sense. A loving God made people, with free will, they were able to do whatever they want, and live in paradise forever, or eat from the tree.
I think of a perfect world, something living within it…. and I giving it free will. In a perfect environment, I would understand how, eventually, it would want to leave, just to see what there was.

Suddenly I understand that existence needs to have a feeling, Good or Bad, to persist, otherwise….there is nothing.

People could live in paradise forever, without ever feeling any pain—but would it mean anything? Not until I was able to get to a point where I even understood that paiN even existed.

I come to a point with myself. I feel that I have reasoned through it with myself logically, and decide to believe in a higher power, ‘God’. I decide to just put the ‘religion’ ideas into place in my head…then I start to feel that they do make sense.

A lot has happened in the past with the ‘human race’, but one thing has persisted, which is ‘sin’, ‘evil’, ‘bad’, whatever you want to call it—which cannot exist in a perfect world. I understand that this cannot persist in a perfect world, and decide that there must be some way to ‘rid’ oneself of such evil so to speak, to be able to live within this perfect world.

I put myself in the ‘creators’ position, and decide that if I was doing it, I would make people believe in a ‘belief’ that was something higher than them. Something that they could feel within themselves, at any moment, a persisting feeling—that led them to him.

It’s a perfect plan, if I was the creator. Good and evil exists, so being can ‘be’, and know how it was, but no longer experience it—NOW is perfect.

All of a sudden, deciding Christianity is my thing, because I believe in this savior, and have understood him to be what he is to me, I wonder about what the hell is going on with everyone else…

I am finally satisfied with the idea that if I put myself in the position of the creator—was the perfect being of existence, created a world for ‘existence’ to play itself out in, --and something was so caught up in itself not to believe that there ever was something perfect—that’d I’d just let it go. That’s how they wanted to live their lives out, it’s free will, they never wanted more.

I thank Jesus for showing me him, forgiveness from sin, and a gateway to a perfect world. I’m pissed off now, but I understand that it is, because it needs to be, because it is his perfect plan.

***

oh, and by the way, don't make any replies to this picking it apart. it's what i believe, and i truly don't care what you do. i've come to a point with myself where no one else can reason with me--unless they go beyond what i feel i have done. i guess everyone gets to that point, don't they [img]smile.gif[/img] ? just different places...

[ February 08, 2004, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

[St. Anky]

So you're saying you're stubborn and no matter what, no one will ever be able to change or influence your beliefs?

im not picking apart your post, i just want to ask a question:

is religion as important to you as you say it is, simply because its the only thing you reason is RIGHT?

i was raised in a christian home, its all i knew about religion, and hell i was even taught that anything that rivaled the teachings of the bible, were considered blasphemous and wrong. an 18 year old my age raised in an islamic or buddhist family could have the exact same argument that i do. who's right?

in my experience; in order to satisfy my quest for truth, I've had to take myself out of my christian upbringing and look at all of the religions of the world from a neutral stance. thats the only way to make a just decision. sure i can go out and explore other religions, but if i always hold onto my christian beliefs, i will never truly gain anything from my journey, i will always look at islam, judaism, buddhism, and every other religious dogma in a doubtful, non-believing way.

then again, in the end this is all the result of neurons firing in my brain, developing ideas into words...

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by St. Anky:
So you're saying you're stubborn and no matter what, no one will ever be able to change or influence your beliefs?

im not picking apart your post, i just want to ask a question:

is religion as important to you as you say it is, simply because its the only thing you reason is RIGHT?

i was raised in a christian home, its all i knew about religion, and hell i was even taught that anything that rivaled the teachings of the bible, were considered blasphemous and wrong. an 18 year old my age raised in an islamic or buddhist family could have the exact same argument that i do. who's right?

in my experience; in order to satisfy my quest for truth, I've had to take myself out of my christian upbringing and look at all of the religions of the world from a neutral stance. thats the only way to make a just decision. sure i can go out and explore other religions, but if i always hold onto my christian beliefs, i will never truly gain anything from my journey, i will always look at islam, judaism, buddhism, and every other religious dogma in a doubtful, non-believing way.

then again, in the end this is all the result of neurons firing in my brain, developing ideas into words...

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that I've come to a point with myself that all reason that I put into it--comes out as this. And I will be stuck with this ideology, unless someone comes up with something that goes beyond what I feel I have done.

You are doing the exact same thing.

Religion is not important to me. I'm not sure where you got that idea from... The belief my savior is--and the only reason that it is, is because it is RIGHT to me. If I did not reason with myself, until I believed it, without a shadow of a doubt...did I ever really believe it?, or did I just want to believe it in case there really is a hell--and I want to cover myself? That's what religion used to be to me.

I've tried to reason through the feelings that I have...that is drawing me towards something. I feel this is what it has drawn me towards, and the feeling is satisfied. I am no longer searching.

[AcTivE]

I dont feel a need to go searching for other religions. The bible--and the answers it brings to the feelings I'm feeling, is proof enough to me that what I am believing is right.

Why is there good? Why is there evil? Ever wonder that--or are you content with the fact that this is just the way it is...

I'm not, so I believe there is something greater. The Bible offers it, and Jesus Christ is the answer.

Show me any religion that answers the questions I have asked myself, and I will consider it. It is the only reason I believe in Christianity.

[Fruitacious B]

AcTivE, I like a hell of a lot about your main post, I really do. That deeper level of thinking is an awesome thing. Even though I don't come to the same conclusions as you do, I like the processes that go you to yours. Hell, even the fact that people can independently think that deep about it and come up with diferent conclusions is a marvel in itself. Good work.

Edit: Where the hell is drumkideric? I've been waiting to see what he'd come up with, that was the main reason I even said anything. And if you're reading this you little shit, post something.

[ February 10, 2004, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Fruitacious B ]

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by St. Anky:
in my experience; in order to satisfy my quest for truth, I've had to take myself out of my christian upbringing and look at all of the religions of the world from a neutral stance. thats the only way to make a just decision. sure i can go out and explore other religions, but if i always hold onto my christian beliefs, i will never truly gain anything from my journey, i will always look at islam, judaism, buddhism, and every other religious dogma in a doubtful, non-believing way.

thanks Fruit.

St. Anky--maybe your quest for truth shouldn't be for a religion. No matter what perspective you look at it from, you will always have your biases. If you were to truly put yourself in an Islam's position--would you believe what they had to say?

I predict you wouldn't. You said yourself you were raised in a Christian home, and you are doubting it now...or trying to bring doubt to it.

Would anything you are saying now be any different if you grew up in that position??

Maybe if your culture deemed that you shouldn't think for yourself. Or if you weren't allowed to use the internet...then you couldn't have made the post...but I don't think we need to go that far into it.

'Religion' will never give you any answers...imho

[ February 10, 2004, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Fruitacious B:
AcTivE, I like a hell of a lot about your main post, I really do. That deeper level of thinking is an awesome thing. Even though I don't come to the same conclusions as you do, I like the processes that go you to yours. Hell, even the fact that people can independently think that deep about it and come up with diferent conclusions is a marvel in itself. Good work.

Edit: Where the hell is drumkideric? I've been waiting to see what he'd come up with, that was the main reason I even said anything. And if you're reading this you little shit, post something.

i decided to go back and actually read what you posted

do you agree--that the very fact that you made a conscious decision to:

'I don't know how the earth got here, and I'm okay with that. I can create my own views on topics without using the bible as a crutch.'

is yourself answering the question of 'existence' in a way that you, YOURSELF are comfortable with?

[ February 10, 2004, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]