Debt Ceiling talks getting ugly

[f3lix]

I applaud the GOP for standing their ground and sending the Tea Party Bill to the Senate.

[ninjaface]

Debt ceiling is a non-issue. It's been raised ~100 times in the past. Reagan did it 17 times. Dubya did it 7 times.

[Ugly Bastard]

I would love for these Tea Party types to actually get their way on an issue to see how many of them still support it after the consequences show themselves.

[DDTempest]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

I would love for these Tea Party types to actually get their way on an issue to see how many of them still support it after the consequences show themselves.

Unfortunately that would be absolute shit for the rest of the world economy ... but I genuinely believe that some of these people would rather nuke the Earth just so see Obama fail. King of the Wasteland is better than the Prince of Paradise in their warped minds.

[Repugnant Abomination]

I hate you so much, Felix.

[DJ FC]

Yes it's going to hurt in the short term. But if you keep allowing yourself to borrow more and more debt you are just delaying, amplifying, and spreadng out the pain that must be felt.

The US's credit is pretty damn good right now so it's not the end of the world if they borrow a little bit more. The problem is you never realy stop. The lifestyle that Obama wants for America is unsustainable.

[Repugnant Abomination]

What are you talking about? He's offering to cut trillions of dollars in spending and reform medicare and social security. All he wants in return are for the Bush tax cuts to expire (they were never meant to be permanent in the first place) and to reform the tax code and close loopholes. You don't just suddenly impose harsh austerity measures, otherwise you hurt the economy, which is the last thing we need. You work out a long term plan to reign in spending and cut the deficit over a drawn out period, so you have a softer landing.

The GOP's stance on taxes is ridiculous. If the US defaults it will completely be their fault, and the American people will punish them in 2012 for it.

[f3lix]

Repug, the Dems have not put forth a single plan and the GOP has. The dems only talk about it. The only party who has done anything is the GOP. Reid even TABLED GOP bill instead of bringing it up for a vote. It's easy to see who's talking and who's walking when you look past what the MSM is putting in front of you.

[thekremlin]

You're retarded f3lix. You're so retarded retarded. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you're what's wrong with America.

Right now the GOP is the minority, so they're going to classic minority tactics, i.e. slow everything down so the dems can't get anything done. Look, the debt ceiling WILL be raised, but not before they take a chunk out of Obama's ass. The problem is, they're not just the minority right now. They're way behind. The tea party, which at its core has some decent ideas, has been completely populated by idiots and lunatics. Maybe if Republicans had stuck to what they were good at (opposing gay people, excuse me, I mean gay marriage, abortions, muslims,) they would have a shot at the white house in 2012. But probably not. 2008 was a total disaster since then, and all the party has been doing since then is trying to make Obama look bad. They're making the country a worse place.

While I'm on a rant that I know I'm going to take a lot of shit for (being back in Boston must have me feeling liberal,) I'm so fucking tired of the "Obama promised change, what has he done?" argument. Are you fucking kidding? There are a lot of criticisms you can make about the guy, but I don't think you can accuse his administration of resting on their laurels. The US has gotten out of Iraq as much as possible, and one of the largest social policy bills of our lifetime went through. Whether you agree with it or not, how does that not qualify as change? And this is WITH the GOP playing the stall game, AND it is in a 1st term, where it is considerably harder to put laws through.

And dude, Fox is part of the mainstream media. Please don't let them convince you otherwise. Seriously, f3lix, people like you make me not want to be an American anymore.

[f3lix]

I hate Fox more than anybody here, I can guarantee you that much.

While we may disagree on what is best for the country, I just want everything to come to a halt, because the more gov't meets, the more money I lose and the more freedoms this country loses.

[f3lix]

I'm also really ashamed of you Kremlin, as I just want the government to exist within the bounds of the constitution, yet you're telling me I'm what is wrong with this country. The balance of power is being used by the minority party just as it was meant to be used. There isn't anything wrong with doing what the country voted for in 2010. The dems had full control in 08, passed a bunch of bills which outraged Americans and the voters sent their message loud and strong by voting in a record number of congressmen who have never held public office.

[ninjaface]

Originally Posted by f3lix

There isn't anything wrong with doing what the country voted for in 2010.

There absolutely isn't anything wrong with that. But that's not what they are doing. The main concern of the voters is not the deficit, its JOBS. The tea party/gop ran on a platform of JOBS, yet have not put forth a single jobs bill.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by ninjaface

Debt ceiling is a non-issue. It's been raised ~100 times in the past. Reagan did it 17 times. Dubya did it 7 times.

You can't really call it a non-issue just because it has been done before. It's not as if the debt ceiling got lowered after each raise. While you could consider this particular time to be an arbitrary one, sooner or later the point has to be raised that the country can't run on a defect forever.

There is only so much money to borrow before the costs become prohibitive. At some point in the future, the largest economy in the world should be able to be enough to run the government.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by ninjaface

There absolutely isn't anything wrong with that. But that's not what they are doing. The main concern of the voters is not the deficit, its JOBS. The tea party/gop ran on a platform of JOBS, yet have not put forth a single jobs bill.

Probably because the government can't create fucking jobs, it can only make it harder for the private sector to do so, namely by taking all their fucking money.

[Beebs]

I do of course, oppose defaulting on any debt, which will likely mean that the debt ceiling must be raised. However, the debt ceiling being raised should be used to extract a significant pound of flesh from the government spending monster.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

The GOP's stance on taxes is ridiculous. If the US defaults it will completely be their fault, and the American people will punish them in 2012 for it.

What's ridiculous is that half the fucking households in the US don't pay income tax.

Spare me any fucking "oh the rich need to pay their share" bullshit; look at actual figures and see who already pays who's share.

The economic left's stance on taxation is "if we can get a small enough group of successful people to pay for everybody else, everybody else will vote for us!"

Sure it may be akin to armed robbery, and lacks any economic sense, but it sure buys votes.


I do agree with the sentiment that a significant simplification and reform of the tax code to have fewer specific tax exemptions (and as a result a lower base rate) is a good starting point to increase revenue.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

Originally Posted by Beebs

look at actual figures and see who already pays who's share.

Will you point them to me so that I may become informed? would be interesting to look at.

[Beebs]

[Saint DH]

Maybe if Republicans had stuck to what they were good at (opposing gay people, excuse me, I mean gay marriage, abortions, muslims,) they would have a shot at the white house in 2012.

Is this sarcasm? I can't tell. You want Republicans to focus on this petty shit that no one cares about? The main issue in 2012 will be the economy. What this economy needs are jobs and private investment. We need government saving. Not the largest deficit in history. This is insane. We need a government that is willing to compete in the global markets for labor and investment. We need a president who will cut spending and make this country a place that is friend to business. We don't need a president who sides with the labor unions. President Obama should have stomped that out immediately and been thankful Boeing was relocating in the US. It's unbelievable.

[DDTempest]

Originally Posted by f3lix

I hate Fox more than anybody here, I can guarantee you that much.

While we may disagree on what is best for the country, I just want everything to come to a halt, because the more gov't meets, the more money I lose and the more freedoms this country loses.

You are going to be a great king of the wasteland f3lix ... do you realize this is about more than the debt ceiling this time around? Moody's has threatened to downgrade our country's credit rating if we do not get this shit straightened out by August 2nd. We can already not pay our bills, lower credit rating = higher interest across the board for everyone and everything. How the fuck you think that's going to work for the world economy? How about the national debt after business growth is stifled? How much do you think you will be paying in taxes then?

The entire global economy is a house of cards and the U.S. is a cornerstone of the foundation ... if you really want to live in the dark ages go ahead and buy a castle in the swamp and do it, just don't expect the rest of us to come play serf.

[Repugnant Abomination]

You know, this is basically the same debate this country has had since its founding. You guys on the far right basically represent the anti-federalists. I mean, you're essentially arguing for a return to the Articles of Confederation. You're Neo confederates. I'm not sure if you're aware, but Lincoln squashed all that, and the supreme court has firmly established the supremacy of the federal government.

Let's get another thing out of the way. All these moronic tea party people have no clue about history. The Boston Tea Party was not in defiance of taxes. The taxes were of a pretty trivial sum. The rebellion was because of taxation without representation. People in the US were subjects not citizens, therefore they weren't represented in British Parliament. They viewed this as a violation of British Common law, which they highly respected.

Government has a valuable role to play. One of those roles is stimulating the economy. Another role is investing in research and development. You can thank the government for things like the internet and space program, for starters.

The Kremlin nailed exactly what's going on with the GOP right now. And now they've backed themselves into a corner with their no new taxes bullshit and are desperately looking for a way to not lose face when the debt ceiling is inevitably raised.

[DJ FC]

In a democracy, all citizens are subjects of each other. And if that democracy is large enough, in all practicality you truely do have taxation without representation. Especially if you are in the tax-paying minority

[Saint DH]

Moody's will not downgrade US Treasury securities. US bonds are still basically risk-free and the risk free rate of return for all other markets will be based on this rate. The government will raise the debt ceiling, print more money, and (hopefully) balance the budget. I think we're going to see some significant inflation . The Fed will try and target inflation as best they can, but with the burden of the deficit the money supply will have to increase beyond the nominal anchor level. So where do you guys like to have your money in a market like this?

I often think about why the 90s were so great and why Clinton was such a great president. Two major things stand out:

1.) Clinton balanced the mother fucking budget. He at least came very close. Honestly, I can't think of anything more important than having a government surplus budget.

2.) He had a republican congress during his second term. Let's face it, the civilized world would basically have to fall apart for Obama not to get reelected. But, the newly appointed Republican congress might be able to work with Obama during his second term to bring about moderate liberalism, reminiscent of Bill Clinton. I think this would be a fantastic thing for our country and for Obama's presidency.

Obviously the Iraq war will be a big topic in 2012. Look, I think W was wrong about Iraq and WMDs. Call it bad intel, whatever. We probably shouldn't have invaded Iraq. It was stupid. There were better targets to invade than Iraq. But let's face the fucking facts: we've been there for over 10 years now. We've made a lot of enemies in the region, no doubt. It is absolutely critical for the well-being of our nation and the well-being of our planet to remain vigilant, present, and strong in Iraq. I have few doubts that eventually, be it 10 more years from now, Iraq will be a thriving new democracy. I had faculty members from my university's accounting program who visited Jordan and Iraq to help them develop accounting systems and standards for more competent financial reporting. This was UNHEARD OF as little as 5 years ago. We need to see Iraq and the middle east through, however long it takes.


edit: drunk mother fucker

[ninjaface]

Originally Posted by Beebs

You can't really call it a non-issue just because it has been done before. It's not as if the debt ceiling got lowered after each raise. While you could consider this particular time to be an arbitrary one, sooner or later the point has to be raised that the country can't run on a defect forever.

I can. And I will. Of course the debt ceiling doesn't get lowered after it gets raised. What is your point? The debt ceiling is a total non-issue. And the United States is absolutely able to run on a debt forever. It would likely be best not to have such a large debt, but having some debt is not a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Beebs

There is only so much money to borrow before the costs become prohibitive. At some point in the future, the largest economy in the world should be able to be enough to run the government.

It would be easier to run the government if companies like GE didn't have tax loopholes that allowed them to pay no taxes in 2010 and receive a $3.2 billion tax benefit. Fixing corporate tax loopholes and getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan would take us quite far in the goal of deficit reduction.

Originally Posted by Beebs

Probably because the government can't create fucking jobs, it can only make it harder for the private sector to do so, namely by taking all their fucking money.

Calm down, sir. Job creation bills can be made in order to foster growth of jobs. One way in particular to foster job growth is to take away any tax benefits for companies that offshore their jobs.

And I know you hate the idea of raising taxes on the super wealthy, but doing so would result in a barely noticeable, painless increase. Considering the super wealthy got that way as a result of our country's opportunities and policies, I think slightly higher taxes for the super wealthy are totally fair. I have no problem with, and actually prefer the idea of simplifying the tax code and getting rid of ridiculous loopholes, I think it is unlikely to pass such legislation and would be easier to pass tax legislation targeting the super rich and large corporations.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by DJ FC

In a democracy, all citizens are subjects of each other. And if that democracy is large enough, in all practicality you truely do have taxation without representation. Especially if you are in the tax-paying minority

We're citizens of a country that is a representative democracy based popular sovereignty. That's not the same thing as being subjects of each other.