Life

[Repugnant Abomination]

I'm putting this thread here because I don't think I'll be able to articulate my thoughts very well.

Okay, so I've been doing a lot of thinking lately; does anyone else feel like the last four or fives years of their life has been the only years worth anything? Let me explain...

I think that college has been about as rewarding for me as it has for anyone who's ever gone. It has opened my eyes in a way that has let me become a more conscious person. When I look back at my life I break down my years as follows: 1-9 or so can be omitted as I really don't recall much from those years. Just vague memories. 10-15, trivial if not enjoyable. I was a happy kid, innocent but mischievous. I was happy just playing basketball and hanging out with my friends. 16-19 (or so) were really bad years for me. I was your typical rebellious teenager who thought he knew everything and treated my family like dirt. I got into drugs, although that sounds a little melodramatic since it was mainly just pot. Nevertheless my grades suffered, I gained a lot of weight and generally speaking became a very negative, unhappy person who was not pleasant to be around. 20-25 (or so) I underwent a remarkable change. Some of this was due to the natural process of maturing through age, but most of it was a result of going to school and applying myself. The more I learned the less I realized I knew. It's cliche, but true. If you ask my friends they'll tell you I'm not the same guy.

I feel as though I'm just experiencing consciousness in a way that makes life more rewarding, like I've really only been living with my eyes wide open for four years. It's the very Socratic idea of "the unexamined life is not worth living."

Anyway, my point is, is that I feel like I've only really been living for five years - everything before that doesn't matter, and is pretty much a blur. Does anyone else feel like this?

I feel like my "awakening" has led me down the inevitable road of questioning the meaning of life. I'm not a overly nihilistic person, but like a lot of people the conclusion I come to is that life is meaningless - death awaits us all - and nothing we do here matters. Therefore all we can do is try to be happy with the time we're given and accept our mortality. But I find this to be very unsatisfactory, so I recently picked up this book:

It's basically Tolstoy talking about his struggles with death and the severe depression he went through with the idea that life is meaningless. I haven't finished it yet, but he eventually becomes a Christian.

My interest in the book is that he is a very smart man, someone I look up to, and he was going through the same struggles as I am right now, and I want to know how the hell he ended up choosing what he did. Being someone who never wants to shut the door on anything completely, I'm reading it with an open mind; I've always said I hope I'm wrong about the after life, so I'm seeing if Tolstoy can change my mind. If anything it's a good read and something that will make me think.

Anyway, this is a pretty heavy subject, but I know how much you guys care about my well being (10) so I thought I'd share.

[Mr. Blonde]

shitheap, tempban

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

admins, plz lock thread

[Ironic Mustache]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

shitheap, tempban

Originally Posted by THEINCREDIBLEdork

admins, plz lock thread

Quiet youngsters, this is a grown folks thread.

Repug, I get what you're saying. I’m pretty sure every five years you’re going to reflect on the previous 5 years and say something similarly though. If you can’t move forward then you’re wasting your life. There will be ups and downs of course but as long as there’s overall progress then you’re doing well. In the last 5 years I changed careers, amassed a small fortune, invested a lot of it, lost some of it, got most of it back, inadvertently amassed another fortune, reinvested it, changed careers again and went back to school so that I could change careers for a third time. Progress. At the beginning of that five years if someone would have told me all that I would have told them to eat my taint quite literally.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Perhaps, but even when I do reflect on things five years from now it will be different, because the previous five years I'll have been much more conscious than I was before. Still, I get what you're saying. What I do want to focus on is your promotion of progress. This struck me because it's the same thing Tolstoy talked about during his earlier years. Let me type up some quotes so you see what I mean.

"...The view of life adopted by these people, my literary associated, was that generally speaking life is a process of development in the course of which the most important role is played by us, the thinkers; and that among the thinkers it is we, the artists and poets, who have the most influence..."

"This faith in the meaning of poetry and in the evolution of life was a religion and I was one of its priests..."

"..."Life in Europe and the contact I had with advanced and learned Europeans still further reinforced my belief in striving for perfection...The belief was expressed in the word 'progress'..."

I could go on, but I think that's enough. The point he is making though is that this idea of striving for perfection through the means of progress is flawed because nobody knows what we're supposed to be teaching and what we're supposed to learn; they were teachers who didn't know what they were teaching.

So you say progress, but progress towards what? Happiness? Wealth? Success? Then what? That's what Tolstoy asked himself when he was 50 and already a literary God.

[Ugly Bastard]

I can completely relate to this, Repug. It's actually very challenging for me to be around my family since I feel like they don't really know me at all and still treat me like the "old me" (melodramatic, but lacking a better term).

I've mentioned this to you before, I suggest this book Conversations with God. It has helped me a lot with sorting out a lot of "meaning of life" stuff and is a hell of a lot cheaper than therapy. Don't let the "God" part spook you; the book is irreligious to the degree of strongly criticisizing it.

All the best.

[Repugnant Abomination]

I'll check it out at some point. Having read it and having gone through your own kind of Odyssey, what do you think the meaning of all of this is?

[Ironic Mustache]

That's the third recommendation I've received for that book. I suppose I can't avoid it any longer.

I'll write more about the whole progress thing tomorrow, but I don't think I can respond completely without getting at least a little siddharthic so I might have to gag myself a few times in the process.

[SittinOnDubsWGW]

I think I'm becoming less "mature" the older I become. Not in the sense that I act like a child or things of that nature, but I just find simple pleasures more interesting than I used to. I guess its kinda nice to be easily amused.

I don't really care at all about money or much material things anymore. I pretty much try to do as many fun things that I can and go do things I haven't been able to before due to money or whatever reasons.

I used to think that I want to get married, have kids, etc. The more I think about it, the less I want either. Really, I just want to go do whatever I think sounds interesting at the moment and do it. If I can live my life that way, I think I will be content.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by SittinOnDubsWGW

I think I'm becoming less "mature" the older I become. Not in the sense that I act like a child or things of that nature, but I just find simple pleasures more interesting than I used to. I guess its kinda nice to be easily amused.

I don't really care at all about money or much material things anymore. I pretty much try to do as many fun things that I can and go do things I haven't been able to before due to money or whatever reasons.

I used to think that I want to get married, have kids, etc. The more I think about it, the less I want either. Really, I just want to go do whatever I think sounds interesting at the moment and do it. If I can live my life that way, I think I will be content.

this. i take life as un-seriously as I can (these days) while still supporting my relatively low maintenance lifestyle. I have about zero stress.

[Repugnant Abomination]

I appreciate your honesty. Tolstoy used a parable to explain this kind of attitude, which is basically eat, drink and be merry.

There is a man in the woods being hunted by a great beast. As he is running he stumbles upon a well and jumps down into it for safety. As he's falling he sees an enormous dragon at the bottom, snapping his jaw in anticipation of the meal. Half way down, the man grabs hold of a branch and clings to it.

So above him the beast is waiting to see if he'll climb back up, and below him the dragon is waiting to see if he'll drop down.

Suddenly he realizes that two little mice are gnawing away at the branch he's desperately clinging to. Eventually they'll weaken it to the point of breaking. In his despair he notices a few drops of honey on one of the leaves of the branch and begins to lick it. It tastes good and distracts him from his predicament.

So basically life is the branch he's clinging to, the beast and the dragon are death, and the honey is the small pleasure in life that serve to distract us from the dragon and the beast. But Tolstoy says that the older you get the less satisfying the honey becomes, and eventually all you can do is stare down in horror at the death that awaits you. So rather than ignore it, he chose to confront it head on, i.e. figure out the meaning of it all instead of ignoring the inevitable.

[SittinOnDubsWGW]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

So rather than ignore it, he chose to confront it head on, i.e. figure out the meaning of it all instead of ignoring the inevitable.

MY meaning is to enjoy life and all of the various experiences of living. Living the way I mentioned isn't ignoring death, its just not focusing on it and trying to figure out the meaning. I'm not going to try to pretend that I'm so enlightened that I have it figured out, nor do I think I'll ever figure it out.

Either way the end result is the same, we fucking die.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Having read it and having gone through your own kind of Odyssey, what do you think the meaning of all of this is?

That's a tough question, perhaps the toughest. I suppose the answer has been changing all my life. First it wasn't a question I had to think about. Love and be loved. That's all I did or needed. Then I was told that worshiping Jesus is the meaning of life, and for a while, I believed it. But as I got older, I chose to find something different. More and more as time goes on, I am finding what it is that I was hoping to find. It comes and goes. Sometimes I forget and sometimes I remember. With the forgetting, there's frustration, anxiety, depravity, a feeling of incompleteness. With the remembering, there's an indescribably wondrous feeling and sense of clarity that can leave me feeling content sitting on a park bench for hours on end. It is an intense state of bliss and peace accompanied with the understanding that nothing matters. It's the understanding that life can be whatever we want it to be. The hard part is finding a way to put that feeling into words or to carry that feeling with you in daily interactions with others. I suppose that's what I'm trying to do now: help others discover the feeling. It is very hard. There is a lot of noise that can distract and discourage us. Negativity. Fear. Being told that we're not worthy or that we're not capable. The hardest work we'll ever do is to realize that's not true. For now, I'm just trying to keep in mind that the path to greatness is journeyed by showing others the greatness in themselves. Mostly, I fail. But that's okay. I can look back just a few years and see enormous progress. The little successes here and there add up. When they come along, they are very gratifying. I can think of no better feeling than the one that comes with receiving a text message from someone that simply says, "you are great". So for now, my meaning of life is finding the courage to tell others variations on that very statement: you are great. You are worth more than they've told you. You are worthy. It's tough. You have to be careful. Some people aren't ready to hear that yet. They've been told the opposite too much and for too long and don't like the pressure or anxiety that comes with thinking otherwise. But there are no expectations. Be who you are and the world will follow accordingly.

So what is the meaning of life? Frankly, I don't think there is a "meaning of life" in some grand, absolute sense. It's subjective. The meaning of life is what you create it to be!

That's what I've come up with so far, anyway.

[DDTempest]

I was actually thinking about this sort of thing today. I was pondering how much I've grown in the last year and looked around at those I know that are simply standing still or barely growing as people. I generally find it hard to relate to my peers; for the most part they are seemingly either stationary in life or unwilling to discuss any progress or revelations they have had.

For years I wondered why I felt the ways that I did socially and what my place was in any social situation, now I feel almost as though I've transcended the bullshit and am not just making motions towards being a better person, but huge strides. For lack of better words, I feel powerful.

[AcTivE]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

20-25 (or so) I underwent a remarkable change.

I think this age is spot on for this type of thing to happen for most people...if it's going to happen at all. Not saying it won't happen later or earlier for that matter...but pretty sure this is the age where most kind of figure out WHO they are.

I know I certainly have


I also think there are people that get in relationships early on..say High School (like my parents), and are so absorbed in each other, that they never experience this "self discovery". They are what they are...already! When you have a situation like this, your focus doesn't go inward so much...because you already define yourself....and that defining, in this case, is OUTSIDE of yourself. At least I think so. -- "I am a husband." "I am a wife." -- those things require something that's not inside yourself to bring identity to oneself.. and that is that...you don't really have the isolation that is sort of necessary (again saying what I think) for your focus to be on things besides that which is IN the world...tangible..

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Anyway, my point is, is that I feel like I've only really been living for five years - everything before that doesn't matter, and is pretty much a blur. Does anyone else feel like this?

I think all memories kind of go into a blur. It's my opinion that you feel like everything before "doesn't matter" ...because it hasn't really been significant in defining who you are. ...Yes? Maybe? 5-10 years from now...these years will also be a blur...but there will be those memories of self-discovery that stand out--because they are meaningful.

Originally Posted by SittinOnDubsWGW

Either way the end result is the same, we fucking die.

A lot of "us" were never raised from the dead to begin with...

KEKEKEK

Perhaps, perhaps...

*bends over, and waits*

[SittinOnDubsWGW]

Originally Posted by AcTivE

I also think there are people that get in relationships early on..say High School (like my parents), and are so absorbed in each other, that they never experience this "self discovery". They are what they are...already! When you have a situation like this, your focus doesn't go inward so much...because you already define yourself....and that defining, in this case, is OUTSIDE of yourself. At least I think so. -- "I am a husband." "I am a wife." -- those things require something that's not inside yourself to bring identity to oneself.. and that is that...you don't really have the isolation that is sort of necessary (again saying what I think) for your focus to be on things besides that which is IN the world...tangible..

I kinda agree with you on this. I don't know if a lot of people go through that change or "self discovery," yet never actually change the way they live their lives, due to having too much vested in the way they currently live.

Originally Posted by AcTivE

A lot of "us" were never raised from the dead to begin with...

KEKEKEK

Perhaps, perhaps...

*bends over, and waits*

I don't know if its because I'm tired, but I honestly have no clue wtf you are trying to get at here.

[ProfessorNumber]

Sounds like I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon for this one.

I remember telling my friends ridiculous -- but completely true -- stories of my highschool experience during the early years of my college career. For all intents and purposes, I've stopped telling them now, because even I have a hard time believing that they are true. The point is, when I look back on everything I did between the age of 16 and 19, it actually amazes me that I'm still alive, not in jail, and that I don't have a permanent criminal record. It's not as if I was a total badass, but I made some horribly poor decisions and had some incredible luck.

Having been at college for several years has definitely changed the way I act and part of who I am. Paradoxically, my underlying personality and values haven't changed a great deal. With that in mind, I feel as though the last 3 years have given me an opportunity to view my previous actions in a different light and, for the first time, actually think about the future in a somewhat meaningful way.

[SittinOnDubsWGW]

Originally Posted by ProfessorNumber

The point is, when I look back on everything I did between the age of 16 and 19, it actually amazes me that I'm still alive, not in jail, and that I don't have a permanent criminal record. It's not as if I was a total badass, but I made some horribly poor decisions and had some incredible luck.

I agree completely with the stories and in particular the above statement with my own life, but change 16-19 to 17-23. With still some incredible luck in some spots here and there since.

[Pliedes]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

So what is the meaning of life? Frankly, I don't think there is a "meaning of life" in some grand, absolute sense. It's subjective. The meaning of life is what you create it to be!

Corny as it sounds, this, is the corrent answer.

In a random earlier thread I rhetorically asked "who has a more fulfilling life- mother teresa or tucker max?" The answer is both. Each lived life to the fullest, but in accordance with their worldview.

Subjectively decide how you see the world, then act objectively to obtain it.

[TwoBlackEyes]

Life doesn't have any meaning. Trying to assign meaning to the set of circumstances that caused the DNA of your parents to be combined in such a way as to create the set of synapses that is "you" to exist is futile. You might as well try to assign great fundamental meaning to the existence of a specific thumbtack or kleenex.

I understand your temptation to turn to the outdated mythology most accepted by the society you were born into for comfort, but that's even emptier than a life without meaning. You might as well just assume that you were created by Zeus as a practical joke; it has as much meaning as the Judeo-Christian concept of a loving creator who wants us to worship him.

Religion is just a coat of paint slapped onto a moldy wall. It'll cover things up for a while, perhaps, but the fundamental issue doesn't change and WILL resurface. You need to deal with things in reality, not turn to fairy stories.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Yes, that's the conclusion a lot of great thinkers have come to. The point is that it isn't satisfactory. For Tolstoy this realization led to him flirting with suicide.

[TwoBlackEyes]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Yes, that's the conclusion a lot of great thinkers have come to. The point is that it isn't satisfactory. For Tolstoy this realization led to him flirting with suicide.

Oh whaaaa cry me a fucking river. Are we really such pussies that we have to have "satisfying" answers to our bullshit questions?

"I have to be SOOO important to the universe! It's all about ME and how important MY meaning has to be."

Get the fuck over yourself. Read some Palahniuk instead: You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else, and we are all part of the same compost pile. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 17

[Repugnant Abomination]

Wow, please tell me you really didn't just recommend Palahniuk over Tolstoy.

I can appreciate your cynical, hard-edged approach to existence, but acting as if the big questions are trivial is just stupid.

[TwoBlackEyes]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Wow, please tell me you really didn't just recommend Palahniuk over Tolstoy.

I can appreciate your cynical, hard-edged approach to existence, but acting as if the big questions are trivial is just stupid.

Oh, well now that you've made a bare assertion, that must mean it's true.

The big questions ARE trivial. You can't ever answer them. You're just sitting around making yourself miserable guessing about something that doesn't actually have any effect on you other than beefing up your ego. If you somehow discover some meaning to life, is it gonna change anything about the reality of your life? If so, why not just make those changes without spending a year moping about "meaning."

God, get a livejournal with the rest of the emos.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Despite the fact that I'm pretty sure you're a troll, I'll bite.

The big questions are not trivial. Men like Aristotle, Tolstoy, Emerison, and on and on and on devoted their time and intellect to these questions because they are so important. Just because you might not ever be able to come to some empirical understanding doesn't mean you won't come to a rational one.