If there's one thing I'm sick and tired of, it's when a "Christian" tells me that atheists, people of other religions, and agnostics are going to Hell.

I personally am a Christian. However, just because I am a Christian, doesn't mean that I think atheists are going to Hell. I seriously pisses me off when some dumbass gets into an argument with me, and tells me that you HAVE to believe in God to go to Heaven. Bullshit.

Imagine this scenario: If Mother Theresa(sp) was an atheist, but she still had done all of her good deads, would God send her to hell just because she wasn't Christian? Hell No.

Which brings me to my main point. As my former pastor once said, "God judges people by their character." A pastor said this, not just me. I just don't see how anyone could believe that God would send a person who has lived an honest and meaningful life to Hell, because he chose not to be a Christian. Honestly, I think God would be just as pleased to see an atheist live a morally correct life, as he would to see someone live a Christian life.

In conclusion, Fuck you if you are one of those close minded dumbasses who thinks that God only admits Christian people into Heaven.

Moved to rants.

Sure, it could produce some reasonable shit talking...but I think it's more rantish.

Not to mention that I foresee replies less "fuck you, cocksucker" and more "but the bible says..."

I may be wrong though.

[ July 10, 2003, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: Orgazmo ]

P.N. and Orgz, you're both going to hell for this.

please note that the above statement is more tongue in cheek than a rimjob convention and is not meant to be taken seriously on any level

Read the bible. Going to church makes us feel all good inside--from your saying 'A pastor said this, not just me' tells me how hypocrtical people can be. Going to hell is a pretty big deal, right? Your willing to base all of your eternity on 'A pastor said this'?? Fuck, I think if I gave two shits about flame burning my skin for all eternity I'd read the bible and figure out what it says for myself. Can't claim ignorance...it's right there

Anyway, 'I' completely disagree with you...everybody has sinned. God judging one sin over another to 'me' would be shallow. Is that all it comes down to, ...this person raped 2 people, ..this one only stole some candy--of course the previous would probably go to hell--right?

Think the whole point of jesus dying on the cross...was because he was only man to walk the earth without sinning...and died for our sins. Fuck the atheists--point of christianity is faith..believing. How can someone be saved if they don't believe their sins are forgiven...??

..anyway, just what i think... :rolleyes:

According to the Bible, you and the people who argue with you are both correct on this one.
"Proof" that you are correct:
John 5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
"Proof" that you are incorrect:
Mark 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

I got these verses both from a site called www.skepticsannotatedbible.com . I am not a Christian, and I didn't put much effort into researching this wonderful topic, so I might be taking those verses completely out of context. If I am, I'm sure someone will gladly rip this post to shreds.

And I almost forgot, fuck you, cocksucker.

AcTiVe, so how about my respect level going up for you quite a lot after reading that post.

ProfNumber-

I've been raised in a Christian home since the minute I popped out of the womb, so I know a thing or two about the subject. I can honestly tell you that there is no way that you can just get to heaven simply by being a good person according to the Christian theory. This isn't just my own opinion or anything, I'm just telling you what 99% of all protestants believe.

According to Christianity, good deeds alone will not get you into the Kingdom, rather "accepting Jesus into you heart" and seeking to live a life just as he did, will get you into heaven.

So there ya go...

-Ugly Bastard

Ugly Bastard is right PN, if you get into a discussion with any die-hard christian they'll explain it as this: It's a gift, either you accept it or you do not.

I'm agnostic, however I have a brother who is very religious and we've talked about it in depth.

This is always my main arguement on why I don't agree with it. You can have a rapist who has raped 25 women and then finally kills somebody. He goes on death row and he truly finds god. He really has changed his life around, been forgiven for his sins and what not. He sets up prison ministry's and is a true christian. However he still has to be put to death, and he is and then goes to heaven. Then you have a guy who has never broke a law in his life, he worked hard for every penny, has a great family, and remained faithful to his wife throughout. He donates to charity's and overall is a great guy. However, he never accepts god into his heart, he wasn't brought up in a non-christian home and never really had the chance. He then goes to hell for never getting forgiven for his sins (for what few he had).

I just always will disagree with that theory regardless. I've had christians argue the whole thought of "pergatory" with me which shows how much they truly know, seeing as that's a catholic belief.

[ July 10, 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: BigDongedHoe ]

roses are red, violets are blue, i can misquote scripture as well as you.

don't you love it when people bring in scripture that they have no idea what it means, where it comes from, or what context it is used in. always amuses me.

also for the prof,
Anyone else see irony in this statement? Sounds like someone else is a little close-minded as well.

I'm with UB, Active, my respect for you has also risen.

i didnt' even know i doubled posted, my bad.

[ July 10, 2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: BrassMonkees ]

Wow then my stock is going to drop even worse than what it was...

The main and fundemental Christian belief is that Jesus died for ALL our sins. It's obvious that God would see not believing in him to be a sin correct? But with Jesus people are saved for all sins, making no sin bigger than another right? Therefore if you aren't sent to hell based on your sins, how could you be sent to hell based on what you believe, even though it's a sin? Does that make any sense to anyone?

Also I hear many people, and the bible, say that God is the most forgiving being there is. I know a lot of forgiving people in my life that I've fucked over a good number of times but they've always given me 2nd chances and forgave me for the fucked up decisions I've made. Wouldn't God be willing to understand and forgive a person for not believing in him during their life? To be honest a lot of atheists have some good reasoning as to why they don't.

I find this to be a damn good topic to post on and I "pray" that everyone will discuss it intelligently, maybe that's just a dream...

[ July 10, 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Alpha ]

You have all raised some good points, but ultimately, I just don't see how God could turn his back on th 66% of people in the world who are not Christians. Bullshit.

The bible contradicts itself so many times that I really have no idea how to interpret what it means. Therefore, I go to church where I listen to a pastor explain it. Yes, I do trust my pastor a lot, and I believe that he was right when he said that God judges people by their character.

May I ask what "Christian" church you go to that has a pastor that preaches these things?

First United Methodist Church of Warsaw.

The pastor I'm referring to was Doug Johns, who is sadly no longer with my church.

Which is probably for the best if I comprehend what he was saying in some of his teachings.

-Ugly Bastard

1) [quote]Does that make sense to anyone? [quote]--Not to me. Are you saying believing in 'Jesus' as the savior is a sin?

2)

Once again--I truly find it amazing that anyone would count on discussions of this topic 'intelligently' to be any guiding factor whatsoever. People don't like the thought of burning for all of eternity--and most don't like to take the time to find out what it is to truly avoid that... It's best when we have some pastor, lets say his name is 'Doug' for all practical purposes--that tells you you can get to heaven mearly on living a 'moral' life. Don't really have to place 'God' to high in your life if you just do that...just think--where is he in yours?

...moral life? What is a moral life. Morals all have to do with what YOU as a person believe to be right and wrong, correct? I don't find anything wrong in lighting up a joint over drinking alcohol...but it is against the law--but is not against my morals. I'm still sinning..

The laws were put there by man--will I get to heaven by following mans law??? Also seems like a pretty shallow way to be judged...at least to me.

Read the bible. I'm not 100% completely sure on this--but I'm pretty sure that the basis of 'Christianity' is the belief that Jesus Christ died on the cross for YOUR sins--therefore saving you from hell--because they are FORGIVEN. (basically what you said) Beleving your a 'Christian' would mean that you believe this--not that you just didn't want to go to hell...so you call yourself a 'Christian'..

How any 'Christian' can believe that an Atheist will NOT go to HELL, is beyond me. You say ALL in general terms--I say ALL of those who believe..

If you go with your idea--EVERYONE would go to heaven, regardless. How could that be the case?? Was 'Hell' just made up to scare little kids? ...if so--then why aren't Adam and Eve still alive chillin out in the Garden?

I haven't read much of the Bible..but I do believe I remember people having to make SACRIFICES to God to cover their sins. Jesus Christ--often (I believe so..), was known as the 'Lamb of God' --covering all sins of EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES ...

Once again--just what I think. All the lil Afghan terrorists must feel pretty strongly about what they believe too--willing to kill theirselves over their beliefs... I do have confidence in what I believe though--and no one can change that [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm not the most religous person, not even really all that religous at all, but I am a christan, and I will say I have to agree with UB and Active.

Have you read it? Not trying to be all 'high and mighty' --because I have not read it all--but I do know enough to know that Old Testament is different from New Testament. You can't take things out of context, or YES they will contradict themselves. Maybe it's just me--I won't trust another person to tell me how to avoid hell for all of eternity...

But you will trust the men that wrote the bible 2000 years ago? Seems kind of hipocritical doesn't it?

I must admit, it's sad to see many people quoting scripture before they actually use one of the most remarkable things their god gave to them; their brains.

Let us try to keep in my that the main reason that the predominately Caucasian and completely American citizens that grace this board are also Christians, is because they are indeed American. Guys, if you had been born in India, you most likely would have been brought up practicing the Hindu religion, and would be defending it until your dying day, just like you defend Christianity. Unfortunately for us Americans, we are brought up in a country that rarely think it is wrong, and thinks way too highly of itself.

Do you honestly think that out of all the people in the world, the 33% that believe in Christianity are the only ones that your god would send to Heaven? And that all of the other people in the world, those who have never even had a chance to know your "correct" religion would go to Hell? I sure as "Hell" hope not. Who the fuck would want to believe in a god that would do that?

And while we're on the subject, who the fuck would want to believe in Hell? Something as ridiculous as Santa Claus, which sticks around in order to keep kids in line. Only "Hell" seems to work on a much larger scale, causing many adults to try to act a certain way. Am I the only one who finds it extremely sad that most people need to be scared of Hell in order to be a good person?? Please tell me I'm not. It pains me, someone with no religious attachments, finding myself on many occasions a better "Christian" than half the "Christians" I know. What's worse is when many of the people that would otherwise make an attempt at being a good person, insist on using Jesus as a whore to forgive themselves for something they know they're going to go ahead and do again tomorrow.

Anyway, did you ever stop to think that those people practicing the countless other religions in the world think the same thing about themselves: That their religion is correct? There is absolutely nothing that separates them from us. We are just like them, we think we're right about our religion being supreme and no one else could be. Because that's what we've been taught ever since we were little kids who had no choice but to think the same way as everyone else. "The 'Bible' tells us so..." Oh yeah? Well so does the "Koran" and the "Torah"... They hold the exact same kind of stories of creation that your Bible does.

The fueding happens within Christianity as well. So many different subsets that think they are the "most" correct. I can't stand it when people are so completely blind that they don't even consider that their are other people in the world with opinions that are just as relevant as theirs.

Just because you never give yourself the chance to think you're wrong, doesn't mean you're right.

I'm not saying Christianity is correct or incorrect, I'm saying that you don't know, so stop acting like you do.

If you feel that Christianity is the "correct" religion, or just the "correct" religion for you, then more power to you, practice whatever the "Hell" you want. For me the only thing that would come close to making some kind of sense is if their IS one god and all of these different religions are just different versions of the same story told by different cultures. Seems simpe enough, but people would rather just argue about who's right. If you have a strong feeling or inclination that your religion is right, good for you, but you're not the only one on the planet who feels that way.

[ July 10, 2003, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Titan ]

I understand what your saying, Titan.

And if you were Jewish you would belive your religon is right, because thats what the Tora(sp?)says, and other religons with there religious books....So, it just depends what you believe.

Silver, that's exactly what he just said.

Sorry, Alpha, I didn't relize thats what he put, I wasnt paying full attention.

Wrong. 'Christianity' is the only religion to have a LIVING savior. Go ahead--do a little research. Kinda common sense to me not to be worshipping a dead guy...but then again, thats just me.

..and the point of me mentioning the 'Afghans' was to cover that statement. OF COURSE people are going to believe what they are raised up in--it's when people reach a point ...they understand their surroundings--what's out there--THEN they make the deciscion that the only thing that will save them from 'Hell' is believing in a God that is merciful and who sent his son to die for YOUR sins...

Not at all. You just want to argue--and aren't really putting any thought into your statements. You trust the pastors that interpret the bible that was written by 'men' 2000 years ago??? --

My point is--I'm not going to rely on ANYONE to interpret what the bible or 'religion' in general...anyone who does is crazy..imho..

Let's just say their is a heaven and hell--you end up in hell. What is it you'll probably remember from this world? I'd say probably a forums thread on Nubblies pointing out the fact that people are PEOPLE--not saviors of the universe. I'm not dissing any other religion, but simply pointing out that if someone has a 'belief' --there will be support behind it, and the confidence that it will not change...

which leads to make a point about this:

Being open to ideas is cool--but when it comes to religion, you either have something that you BELIEVE in, or you do not. If you BELIEVE in it, then YES, it is 'correct'. A belief is nothing more than a thought in your head that you know is so right--that no matter what anyone else in the world says, you still hold on to.

Copping out--and saying 'no one knows' is cool in 'world' terms...but where will it get you if there really does end up being a day where you are face to face w/God?

Personally--I'd rather stick with something, and go all out with it...if the beliefs end up being nothing--then so be it.

Then I stick to my unitarian belief that all people go to heaven. Or what ever afterlife God or a Higher Power has chosen for us. I refuse to believe that God would deny someone a passage to Heaven just because they thought long and hard about it and found no real fact to believe in him, or that they weren't scared enough to be forced to believe.

I would if there was good reasoning behind your belief--but I doubt you--or anyone else for that matter, could ever convince me.

You can't be forced to believe anything.

That is understandable, but take into consideration that I was once a diehard Christian too. Things change, shit happens, your mind grows and opens up to new possibilities. But i do hope for my sake and the sake of the other 66% of the world that I am right.

You see, the other 66% is all divided, so a lot of them are going to hell no matter what.

Put your chips where the odds are...Christianity.

-Ugly Bastard

It all comes down to having more than 'hope' I think. I'm willing to die for my beliefs...are you?

My mind has 'grown' in more directions than your probably giving credit. You can push the idea out of your head...and have a 'hope' for the rest of the 66% of the world--or you can believe there is a heaven and a hell...God, and Satan...

We've been given freedom to choose--anything else would be forced. Not a 'just and fair God' in my opinion.

Wow, this topic is a hell raiser.

One year ago, i would have probably agreed with most of the people's posts on here that are pro-christian it's a choice, take it or leave it. As of recently, i would disagree. It seems like the more i look into it, Christianity keeps making less and less sense. The bible is becoming one long list of contradictions. I've actually considered doing a review of the bible for the reviews section, of course. Seeing as how most of you would rip me in half or try to convert me, i think i might wait a while. However, as of now, I'm going to lean more to the atheist side and say that i really don't believe in that stuff right now. I'd probably believe Buddhism over Christianity right now if i had to, but i don't so im not buying either. Will someone please pray for me??????hehe

I'm pretty confident when I say...there are no contradictions in the Bible..

If there are--name them..

I really don't know a whole lot about it...but some of the books were written by different dudes, say 'Matthew' and 'Mark'--and..

well alright, lets be honest, i have no idea waht im talking about--but i was going to end with this...if you see a contradiction that is going to make you change your belief system, you should probably see if it is really a contradiction--cause more than likely it won't be ....but if you willing to ... because did you ever truly have a heartfelt conviction that your beliefs were what were going to save you from eternal damnation? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Reason I'm all about basically 'believe what you believe and stick to it' ...is because I realize that I have brain...so maybe I should use it as Titan (i think..im high at the moment) so aptly put it..

And--my brain, once it realizes that if I was going to believe in concept of christianity--then God, and in a way, Satan, were a lot bigger than the capacity of all reasoning that I would ever have. Understanding that I'm automatically at a disadvantage for understanding all of the events around me...I realize that fellow humans reasoning of 'Why would God do that?' or 'How could he let that happen?', is futile... We as human beings are made up to respond--absorb the surroundings, and LIVE. Part of that is on the emotional-level, which is understanding of our 'natural' soundings..

If you believe in God--then you believe that there is more to 'it' than stated above.... 66% of the world going to hell? I dunno, I'm not God--so I'm not going to make that decision. But going back to the topic of this post--Christianity is pretty straight forward...saying an Atheist is going to Heaven, according to the bible, is a false statement.

Don't ever believe something because someone else told you to...it won't mean anything--find it out for yourself. If you don't, then you probably never cared enough to begin with..

AcTivE, you seem as though you have put a lot in your beliefs, and I respect you for that. But although you seem very confident in saying that there are no contradictions, I can't help but disagree with you on that.

The site I listed before basically lists many contradictions in each book of the Bible. Although, in my opinion, many verses are taken out of context, some I can't help but agree with. All I ask is that if you have the time, just look over it. If you can honestly tell me that despite the long lists of contradictions they have in there, you still believe that there is not one contradiction in the Bible, then I will leave this alone. And if you can honestly say that, I would be interested in hearing your reasoning behind saying the things you did.

Just in case you didn't see the link in my previous post, it's www.skepticsannotatedbible.com . Here's an example of a "contradiction" in this site: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/knows.html Maybe I'm missing a much larger picture here, and if I am, I'd be really interested in knowing what that was.

I'm on a shitty modem (19.2kbps right now I think)--so I just looked at the second link you gave..

Although I can honestly say that I do not know for 100% that there are no 'contradictions' in the Bible--(I'll go on to explain second link), however, I can say with 100% confidence, that it would be something I would be morally, and spirtually--willing to base my entire life on.

To point out one link they gave...(if others are like this--then it applies to them also)

Main point (for people who don't want to go to site) are:

'God sees and knows all things. '

vs.

'God neither sees nor knows all things. '

and uses scripture to point out each incident. To begin with, I believe god 'knows' all and 'sees' all. However, I don't think it's a black and white issue--if you want to turn it into physicalling SEEING vs. God of universe 'seeing' (in a sense knowing) all, then Yes indeed, it does contradict itself. But, this is how I interpret the following:

All of the passages in 'support' of God knowing and 'seeing' all:

Ps.44:21
"For he knoweth the secrets of the heart."
Ps.139:7-8
"Whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."
Pr.15:3
"The eyes of the Lord are in every place."
Jer.16:17
"For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes."
Jer.23:24
"Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth?"
Acts 1:24
"Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men."

To me, that means that there is nothing outside of the reach of God. He knows all--everything that has ever happened, is happening, and will happen.

and the passages:

Gen.3:8
"And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord, amongst the trees of the garden."
Gen.4:14
"Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid."
Gen.4:16
"And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden."
Gen.11:5
"And the Lord came down to see the city and the town."
Gen.18:9
"And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent."
Gen.18:17
"And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do?"

(just a few)

For the following:

Gen.4:16
"And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden."

Cain is praying to God I believe..talking to him. Saying that he left the presence of God was saying that he stopped talking to him..stopped praying

I really don't feel the need to go into other ones, as everything I read I knew had no real significance.

That page seemed entirely as somehting to argue with the Bible...and thats cool and all--but all it takes is looking at it a little deeper. Is the Bible going to contradict itself in a physical 'seeing' since, compared to an all-knowing-creator-of-the-universe-seeing ...well I suppose so--it looks like it has. Nothing that I would ever change my faith to buddhaism over though. Since I have a brain, I understand that in literature ideas have to be conveyed, and in doing so there may seem like there are contradictions...especially since it's on a much larger 'spiritual' level. Cop out? No, read the Bible in context. If you don't want to take the time...say it contradicts itself, and take on the unitarian belief [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yes, I do see your point, and I must say that I agree with you on that one. I didn't really feel like searching through that "contradiction" very deeply at the time, and at a glance, it looked plausible in my point of view. As I said, a lot of these are taken out of context, and a lot of them are based on the fact that words can mean two different things. That made no sense, but basically I'm just repeating what you said. (I think)

Later tonight, I will look through them and attempt to find an actual contradiction. And just to clear things up, I am not basing my entire beliefs on what this website says by any means. I know I won't be able to convince you that your faith is wrong, nor would I want to because you seem to be content with your current beliefs, but it is just something to think about.

I do have to questions, though.

1. Do you think that God is a kind, loving, good (this could go on and on) God? Or do you believe that God is just as evil and he is good? That was probably a weird question.

2. Do you believe God knows what is going to happen before it happens? I'm talking about pre-destination here.

If you are still interested in discussing this, I'd be more than happy to hear your answers to both of those questions. [img]smile.gif[/img]

this subject is just so hard for me to stay away from. I'm sure most here know my feelings toward all of this. I would love to discuss this in depth with anyone, its just that the internet, especially a message board, is just so hard to discuss these matters seriously. nothing will get accomplished with people posting their opinions here. everyone will just get mad about it and go on and on about why they are right and why others are wrong so i'm not even going to get into it. however, in person, i would be more than happy to talk about this kind of stuff.

pre-destination and whether or not God knows what will happen before it does, are two different things. Which one were you going for?

also i believe that God is all of what you said and more, not evil so much, but the good things at least. However, it is important to recognize that he is a just god. That comes with its good and bads

[ July 10, 2003, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: BrassMonkees ]

1) I believe he is a loving God--no evil. I do however believe he is 'just', which others my interpret as 'evil' if they are looking to do so...

2) I believe God knows all, everything that has happened, will happen, and has happened. Not sure if it says it in the bible...But I've done reports on time travel and stuff, and it's just what I believe [img]smile.gif[/img]

I think 'world' as an existence is like this

---------|-- where the lil | is me (not to scale [img]smile.gif[/img] ). I don't believe in 'predestination'. I believe world as more of an 'object' in our sense. Its there, it's happened. We make our choices which lead us in certain directions, but end result God knows--he can see the whole picture.

Basically 'me' realizing that I'm nothing, God is everything. For me to say him 'knowing' all can't be true cause he doesn't know the future...would be ignoring fact that I'm still bound by my 'natural' feelings of existence.

dunno if that makes any sense..

If Christianity were completely correct, though i don't believe that but for this post I'm going to pretend, there are an ample number of excuses why the bible contradicts itself. It's been around for 2000 years, been translated many times, and not always by the same people (two different people might translate it into latin two different ways). Of course it's going to have some rough edges Dr. Suess.

I just have curiosity as to if the Christians in this discussion believe that the bible is fact... Every single word of it... Adam and Eve... Noah's Arc... The walls of Jerhico... David and Goliath... Methueselah... Moses parting the Red Sea... all that good stuff.

Yes.

-Ugly Bastard

If you believe in a Heaven and Hell, what's the problem with believing flooding the earth, plagues, parting of red sea?

I took latin...I could translate stuff in two completely different ways alright. Setence could be 'Claudius went into the kitchen'. and I'd translate it 'Claudius where is the club?'...but I really don't think I held onto any of that wonderful knowledge too tight

..and regardless if it's been translated in different ways...would it really be enough to change entire christian theology? (<--sorta big word, sounds right though...potsky makes you question making sense sometimes [img]smile.gif[/img] )

I'm not sure if you read my post respondign to the "contradiction" post or understood it, but i basically stated that. I didn't really bother to research much into it, and at first it looked plausible to me. I understand that, and that is why i said that things were taken out of context.

I really shouldn't have even bothered with that post, but i did anyways and i can't take it back.

AcTivE: In response to your answers...
1) I had a response written up to this, but it was neither relevant to anything nor worth the effort to explain. But in my opinion, you can't have good without evil thus making God evil as well as good. I don't know why i asked you that question, really...

2.) I don't agree with you at all here. In revelations, there are clearly prophesies that state an exact account of what the earth will be like. I think that somewhere in the book, it states an exact number of Jews that will convert to Christianity during the 7 years before Christ comes back again. I don't remember the exact number, but if that verse is necessary, i will try to find it. The point i am trying to make is that their lives have already been predecided by God. Everything that happens is supposed to happen because of God's plan. What i'm saying is basically all of our thoughts and actions are pre-decided and we're just fulfulling his plans by being here today. I'm know you disagree with me on that, but that's the way I'm seeing it. I'm just curious as to how you came up with your beliefs on predestination and God's knowledge of the future? Did you pull them out of your ass (i'm not trying to be disrespectful here) or is there an actual verse in the Bible that explains this?

The point I'm trying to make is that God can see people go to hell even before they are born. He created each and every person exactly teh way they were and put them into an environment that he found suitable. I believe that a person's choices and thoughts are decided by two key factors: genetics and environment. If God decided both of these, then he basically chose for these people to be sent to hell. This alone makes me question Christianity in general.

I'm sure you're going to prove me wrong, and i'm sorry for the long-ass post. If that didn't make make sense, then i'm sorry.

God is loving,but he is also just. You think he enjoys there being a hell? But there must be in order for a heaven to exist. Enter Freewill.

The Bible. The more and more research is done, the more Bible is confirmed to be historically accurate.

I just really don't want to get into it now.

This is something you really can't just go into online. I'd be up for having a little discussion group on the topic.

I know I'll at least be talking to Alpha about this...

let me quote one of my favorite lyricists here... me

"look at this world
O merciful Christ
you died for our sins
is this now the price
I don't think so
for if you really exist
why would you put us through
hell like this
the death the despair
the heartache the pain
wouldn't you stop those
who kill in your name?

you want to know what I truly believe
death is a concept too great to conceive
so people made god, not the other way around
but in the pools of religion, so many have drowned
they cling to the cross
cause they're tired and lost
leave it up to the 'savior'
to measure the cost

I guess, if I'm right, only death will tell
but if I am wrong, I'll see you in hell"

I realize that there are flaws with the raionale presented by that, but there are also flaws with everyone's arguments here. it's really pointless to argue religion, because it should be something deeply personal that is not easily swayed.
As for the historically accurate parts of the bible... it's also been proven that many popular authors use real places and people in their completely fictitious stories.

[ July 10, 2003, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: StDx ]

I would be interested in doing this sometime, because i don't agree with you at all when saying that for there to be a heaven, there has to be a hell, and i'd be interested in hearing your reasoning behind that. But you are correct in saying that it is too difficult to discuss this online.

Seuss...

I have honestly thought through everything you have said...and basically it boils down to this.

You can look at it two ways--and if you have the perception of the opposite view strongest...then thats the way your going to go. Don't know if that made any sense...for reasons previous stated.

I personally could not deal with the fact that there is nothing else out there except what there is now. It leaves too many questions in my head--and I like knowing that someday there is going to be something better than NOW.

Dudes have gone to explain how that's been religions purpose throughout 'humanity' so to speak..something to help deal with these feelings of 'uncertainty'. Dumbass romans thought there were a bunch of Gods that controlled volcanoes and shit...completely in their perspective as something that could be TRUE to them...am I right?

I think there is too much out there, too much going on...that has lined up perfectly to basic principles and events layed out in the Bible. Right there it peaks my interest, then just kinda run thoughts through my head...

It would all make sense. An all knowing 'being' not even understandble within our own perception--at all. Nothing existed--whatsoever...then there just 'was'. 'Was' --an environment of pure good...happniess, blah blah, animals, fruit. man was given a free will...free will demanded to know what 'sin' was...and so goes the downfall of man.

is God evil? No--but free will of 'Lucifer' ...angel in heaven..blah blah...

Man is presented with evil..free will takes over, and we are presented with the shitty ass piece of crap thing we call 'life'.

Just a bunch of evolutions over the years...is that all we really are? If so, this is all the better it gets--and I say 'Fuck that'. Pain and suffering just doesn't seem like it belongs...its not how we are structered--there has to be a REASON that we search for something MORE to rid us of this..and make us happier. Could it be we were placed in a world where we had to BELIEVE in an almighty God that created us--everything that we are and experience, and had to make the decision--free will, that we would follow him....and then--are presented with the world in which we truly want to live--Free Will

Makes sense to me. Can't appreciate the Good without the Bad--Bad had to happen sometime...now I'm ready for what's next [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's a really nice outlook on life...rather than trying to contradict it--look at how it's contradicted, and look how the people got there..

Have you ever thought of this? Atheiests...lets just pretend for a moment there is a 'God' and a 'Devil' ...don't you think satan would be lining things up to make you believe the way you do?

...and thats where i think the 'perspective of the far ends' comes into play...it's either one way or the other--and everything that I am--physically and emotionally, is pulling me towards something greater

...could just be a trait of the 'evolutional process' --people have to be different...but then again, maybe thats just another 'pull' towards the athiesm ...is 'knowing more' really knowing more?? or is it just putting a greater reality out of perspective??

I'd like to think the latter...but then it just loops around again [img]smile.gif[/img]

the idea i presented forth for 'predestination' was in a way 'pulling it out of my ass' ..but in a way not.

i believe God is all knowing...then I think about universe, and how it was created...then i think about aspects of universe..

then i think about time travel reports i've done... [img]smile.gif[/img]

...and time travel IS possible in a sense..it's all related to speed (and nearing speed of light)--which are all aspects of 'universe'. time is totally a concrete rule of something that God created. He can see the whole thing--can he not? He created it...it's just a rule for something we live within..

You try to think about it--and comprehend it, but it doesn't work..is God on the outside looking in?, How can he see time..blah blah..

But it's his creation, and therefore the 'all-knowing' fact really means that to me... 'all knowing' ..it's like a machine to us--we make it, we know what it will do, and the end result..

only thing about this machine is that the participants are given a 'free will', and are able to make choices that lead them to their final destination...regardless of the environment--people have to make the choice to BELIEVE or not to believe...

...

I was raised in a christian family..from birth till now. Church didn't mean anything to me..it was just something we went to. Yes I was 'saved'--but that's just because I grew up with it... I sorta had to see things are really fucked....then realize it was all real....if that makes any sense..

thats all

[ July 11, 2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

There is no chance that everything in the bible is correct, that's just fucking silly to think of and believe. But like many have said this topic should mainly be discussed in person instead of online, i've definently noticed that this is not all that productive of a way.

StDx I'd recommend a song by a band called XTC called "dear God" It's along those lines, and no it's not a rap song or drug oriented.

I don't necessarily believe everything is absolutely correct...but I believe it to be there for a reason. If you believe in Christianity--and an all-knowing God, I'd say it would be pretty important that literature everything is based on is the way it's supposed to be--that wouldn't be too hard for God...would it?

..I could care less if it's productive way or not--I just like arguing about the subject

ecstasy is cool

AcTivE:
Basically, i think this little "debate" we've had all boils down to two basic principles; do we have freewill or do we not? Since we obviously disagree with each other on that and since there is no evidence that clearly states whether either is true (at least not that i know of..?) I don't think there is any way we could agree with each other at all. What i mean is that we will just go around in circles with this entire conversation.

I think it's cool that you've got beliefs that revolve around a god that is looking out for you and loves you. I would give everything i owned to have beliefs like that, but i just never could believe it. I'm not an atheist if my previous posts have led you to believe that, and as far as I'm concerned, there probably is a "god".

Well, as it has been said many times before, a message board is not a good place to discuss things like this, so this will probably be my last time posting in this thread. And AcTivE, if it means anything to you at all (i don't know why it would...), you really have given me something to think about.

..I'll stop after this [img]smile.gif[/img]

Only reason I believe I have a 'free will', is because RIGHT NOW, i can make the deciscion...you can bring in other factors, saying XXX will sway them one way, and YYY sways them the other--but it all comes down to the choice, of whether to believe...or not to

if you don't--it doesn't exist, people who say it does look sorta crazy for believing something so radical...

I just like to toss it back to the idea--that it's something greater that I can not comprehend with my mind. Is it really a 'machine' that he has created and knows exactly how it turns out? Or has he given opportunity for another 'being' to choose to follow him...free will

Just for kicks--pretend your God, and there is nothing.

Everyone has free will. If we don't why is there crime, hate, and death? I think we are given what we need to live and left to decide the rest as we go.

I'm just gonna go ahead and say that you might as well believe in god. If he doesn't exist, no loss. If he does, then you made a good decision.

As for the bible, I don't think people should try to disect it and try to prove things with it. I think it should be more of a guide for moral behavior.

My views might seem overly simplistic, but they work for me.