Wikileaks Shenanigans

[ninjaface]

Originally Posted by Shaw

AWESOME SPEECH!

Perhaps you were expecting a slow clap that built into a roar of applause in support of your inspiring words. You failed to inspire me.

Originally Posted by Shaw

We were attacked for one reason, and that is because we are a nation above all the rest.

You think we were attacked because we are the best? We weren't and we're not. You're saying people in other countries are jealous of us and that is why we get attacked? That is just fucking silly. If you're feeling ambitious and would like to know the exact motives from Osama himself, I'd suggest you read the letter he wrote. bin Laden's 'letter to America'.

Originally Posted by Shaw

We are once again, a nation divided. Sooner rather then later, we are going to be put to the test. 93 Truck Bomb WTC. In 2001 9-11. We are going to get challenged again soon, and at that time, are you going to back a political pary, or are you going to back our country??

Its not a choice between country or party. Its a choice of supporting an appropriate response to an attack. Any time another attack happens, I hope we have the foresight to examine what happened and who was involved before taking ill conceived actions that have far-reaching consequences.

[Ironic Mustache]

You don't think a proud muslim man knows how to write a 40 page letter? Come on, he got slapped by a white woman.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by f3lix

My flaming liberal economics teacher wouldn't turn it on either, but I wrote a reaction letter to the editor of our school paper saying that this is what we deserved. The main point of the LtE was "We stuck our noses in everybody's business, and we got our noses bloodied."

I foolishly thought that this message sent to us would make us reconsider our global policing policies. And we sure did... we made it ten times worse. It sickens me.

You think that there is anything that we could do that would prevent the worst type of extremists from attempting terror attacks?

The people who do such things are not interested in politics, there is nothing we can do to become "not evil" other than to become an Islamic nation.

Terrorists are not level headed muslims, or even extreme muslims, they are the extreme of the extreme, they are beyond reason.

[Beebs]

And of course Bin Laden is a wholly reputable source, and would never lie to make his mass murder of innocent civilians appear more palatable to childish idiots wearing Che T-shirts.

[ninjaface]

I get your point, but I can't see jealousy as being Bin Laden's motive.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by f3lix

My flaming liberal economics teacher wouldn't turn it on either, but I wrote a reaction letter to the editor of our school paper saying that this is what we deserved. The main point of the LtE was "We stuck our noses in everybody's business, and we got our noses bloodied."

Of course there are unintended consequences to our foreign policy, but no, we didn't deserve it.

And everybody's business IS our business. We operate within an international system, in a globalized world. Shit that goes down from Columbia to Japan effect us, sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly - it's naive to think otherwise. If you let the rest of the world burn the fire will eventually spread to your doorstep.

The kind of stance you're taking leads to such logical conclusions as turning your back on Nazism, food shortages in Africa, humanitarian aid to flood victims, the spread of totalitarianism masquerading as communism, currency manipulation, and on and on and on. No power is benevolent. Of course we're going to increase our chips at the poker table of geo-politics, but people focusing on that are missing the larger picture. America really does represent the free world - people too often forget that before America came into existence as we know it today most of the world was still practicing monarchism and autocracy. The universal values of liberty, freedom and democracy have to be pressed in all corners of the globe, because it IS what all people want, even if government controlled polls suggest otherwise. The fact that it creates an international order in which the US is at the top, and therefore enjoys all of the benefits that it entails, is just part of it.

You need to wake up, buddy. There's a reason we're interfering in, for example, Iran's internal politics - because we don't want a theocratic autocracy whose president wants to bring about apocalyptic conditions for the return of the Islamic messiah to acquire nuclear technology. If that pisses a bunch of extremists off then so be it.

[Cocktooth]

I'm sure Bin Laden didn't twist any words in that document or anything. You are right. What was I thinking.

[Repugnant Abomination]

TREEBEARD: The ents cannot hold back this war. We must weather such things as we have always done.

MERRY: How can that be your decision?

TREEBEARD: This is not our war.

MERRY: But your part of this world! Aren’t you? You must help. Please. You must do something.

TREEBEARD: You are young and brave, master Merry. But your part in this tale is over. Go back to your home.

PIPPIN: Maybe Treebeard’s right. We don’t belong here, Merry. It’s too big for us. What can we do in the end? We’ve got the Shire. Maybe we should go home.

MERRY: The fires of Isengard will spread. And the woods of Tuckborough and Buckland will burn. And... and all that was once green and good in this world will be gone. There won’t be a Shire, Pippin.

[ninjaface]

Originally Posted by Shaw

I'm sure Bin Laden didn't twist any words in that document or anything. You are right. What was I thinking.

Thanks for essentially restating what Beebs just did moments ago. You're truly a sharp individual. And did you even read the letter? I'm guessing no. What he stated in the letter are the reasons behind the attacks. You don't have to accept it as the absolute truth, but you should at least read it before insinuating that its all lies.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by ninjaface

You think we were attacked because we are the best? We weren't and we're not. You're saying people in other countries are jealous of us and that is why we get attacked? That is just fucking silly. If you're feeling ambitious and would like to know the exact motives from Osama himself

Yeah, so I'm pretty sure I can disregard anything that nitwit said when he begins his letter to America with religious justification of murdering over 3,000 innocent people:

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

[ninjaface]

Considering I can't relate to his religious views I pretty much ignored the first 3 paragraphs. I ignored them because I wanted the stated reasons, not the religious framework that he built his argument from. What I was looking for in that letter was not some smoking gun that would make everyone think "Hey, we got this Bin Laden guy all wrong!"

I approached the letter intending to try and draw something meaningful from it. Did I find that? No, not really. The only thing I can say for it is that it seems more like someone with a vendetta than an issue of jealousy.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by ninjaface

I get your point, but I can't see jealousy as being Bin Laden's motive.

I wouldn't call it jealously either, but it is his view that the US in particular and the West in general simply do not have the right to exist as they are, it is as simple as that; especially with Israel. There is no acceptable policy outside of complete capitulation and surrender.

Also Bin Laden isn't the one actually committing the actual acts, rather he is ordering them. First realize how extreme his views are, yet even he isn't enough of a believer to commit suicide for them.

The people who are so convinced of their superiority over the Western world that they are willing to kill themselves are completely beyond any reason, not even declaring Sharia law across the world would even slow them down in their attempts to kill and terrorize.

[Beebs]

Also, even assuming Bin Laden is right, and that we "deserved 9/11" (honestly F3lix?); even that doesn't justify destroying the ability of nations of the world to communicate with each other with the confidence that their communications will be kept safe and secure.

In fact, the ability to perform diplomacy would help us from provoking those poor lovable suicide jihadists, that people here just seem to fucking love, despite the fact that they would kill you, you personally, without a second thought, no matter how much you blame America and support them.

[Fruitacious B]

Who's claiming to love terrorists? Last I knew we were busy accusing everyone of being one.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by Fruitacious B

Who's claiming to love terrorists? Last I knew we were busy accusing everyone of being one.

I was being a bit facetious; but people claiming that we "deserved" to be attacked on 9/11 truly live in some sort of fucked up fantasy world.

I assume they think the Jews, Gypsies, fags, and cripples shouldn't have interfered with Germany's business; or that Serbs shouldn't have provoked the Ustase. And most of all that the US, the rest of Europe, Australia, and basically everybody with an Army should have stayed the fuck out of the business of Germany and Japan. After all it was our harsh policies against Japan that were responsible for Japan bombing Pearl Harbor.

And yes I just did the most cliche thing in all of internetdom, bringing up WW2.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

Originally Posted by f3lix

I wrote a reaction letter to the editor of our school paper saying that this is what we deserved.

You will never be able to run for office.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

Originally Posted by Shaw

does anyone remember how we felt on 9-11?

I remember my friends and I pretending we were planes and crashing into each other.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Mistoffelees

I remember my friends and I pretending we were planes and crashing into each other.

Actually this is sort of a good point that nobody likes to admit. At first every one was sort of trying to laugh it off, because that is what we do with most things.

I distinctly remember walking by a TV in the hall and seeing that the pentagon was also attacked and saying "well, the world is ending, we should definitely go stock up on drugs after school."

People were pissed that their athletic practices and games were canceled; it really did take a while to sink in how major of an event this was. I mean on the one hand everybody knew it was a big deal, but it is just part of the American and even human condition that we try to see the bright side of things until it is undeniable.

[SinisterKid]

"The main point of the LtE was "We stuck our noses in everybody's business, and we got our noses bloodied."

Bin Laden and other Muslim extremist leaders have essentially manipulated the Quran to their liking in order to justify their actions. Today, al-Qaeda is a conglomerate of various other terrorist organizations that needed the financial backing of bin Laden. Before al-Qaeda, these factions had the similar goal of ridding Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and even the world of jahiliyya. Jahiliyya was the pagan world before Mohommed received his message, and is what fundamental Muslims now consider not only Christians, Jews, atheists, every other religion but Islam.....but also other Muslims who interact or align with Christians, Jews, etc., etc. The precedent for being considered jahiliyya is inconsistent and depends on the preconceived notions of whatever extremist is declaring it, but it has facilitated the unification of various groups. Repugnant Abomination offered Quranic scripture that obviously states the murder of disbelievers is against Sharia, but the would be leaders of al-Qaeda very early on found clever ways to leverage and misinterpret other portions of the Quran and Sharia to influence young Muslims into committing terrorist acts. The United States became their prime target during the first Gulf War, when Saudi Arabia asked our armed forces to deter Saddam Hussein in Kuwait. We did not stick our noses in anything without first being asked. Our presence there was necessary, warranted, and needed. Bin Laden found our presence in Saudi Arabia to be disgraceful, but it also allowed him to choose a target big enough to elevate his notoriety among fellow extremists. I find it hard to even imagine justifying statements like

[9/11] is what we deserved

because even if we did in fact deserve it, the intent of Muslim extremists was already well formed and clear to them.

[Repugnant Abomination]

I remember waking up around noon on 9-11 and turning on the radio to listen to some sweet tunes for the 5-4-1, compliments of my man Mix Master Gemineye

But was instead greeted by some monotone voice reporting that we had been attacked and there might be more attacks to come. I recall being incensed that I would not in fact be getting my retro cafe dance party on, and promptly turning off the radio.

Also, Osama and his bros don't exactly manipulate the Quran to their liking. A more accurate description would be that they cherry pick the parts they like. To say otherwise is giving Islam too much credit.

[SinisterKid]

Also, Osama and his bros don't exactly manipulate the Quran to their liking. A more accurate description would be that they cherry pick the parts they like. To say otherwise is giving Islam too much credit.

From The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11

"Zawahiri also alienated many of his remaining followers, who were alarmed both by the death of innocents and by the use of suicide bombers....In responding to these objections, Zawahiri created the theoretical framework to justify the...al-Qaeda attacks that followed."

Furthermore, "There is no theological support for such action [suicide] in Islam; indeed, it is expressly prohibited...Zawahiri had to overcome this profound taboo...The only example he could point to in Islamic tradition was that of a group Muslims, early in the history of the faith, who were captured by 'idolaters' and forced to choose between recanting their religion or being killed by their captors. They chose to become martyrs to their beliefs....With such sophistry, Zawahiri reversed the language of the Prophet and opened the door to universal murder."

Sounds like manipulation bro.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Okay, first off, don't call me bro. I'm not your bro. Buddy maybe if you play your cards right, but never bro.

Second, I'll concede the suicide stuff. I was more talking about the Quaran preaching violence against non-believers. Sure, it also preaches tolerance, but that's one of the many contradictions of most religious texts.

Examples:

Why is it so hard for Muslim to become a Christian or join with another religion? Mohammed said, “Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57) This command is practiced in almost all Islamic Fundamentalist countries today.

Of the Unbelievers: Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

You get the idea.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by Shaw

We were attacked for one reason, and that is because we are a nation above all the rest....Call it what you want, but the US is more advance then any other country in the world in all aspects.

I call it you being ignorant as hell. You need to read more.

~And that's my post.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Okay, first off, don't call me bro. I'm not your bro. Buddy maybe if you play your cards right, but never bro.

Second, I'll concede the suicide stuff. I was more talking about the Quaran preaching violence against non-believers. Sure, it also preaches tolerance, but that's one of the many contradictions of most religious texts.

Examples:

Why is it so hard for Muslim to become a Christian or join with another religion? Mohammed said, “Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57) This command is practiced in almost all Islamic Fundamentalist countries today.

Of the Unbelievers: Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

You get the idea.

Not to mention the idea that if killed during jihad, you get an express pass to paradise.

[Ironic Mustache]

AND 72 virgin dudes' butts.