Let's Talk About God Again

[Ugly Bastard]

The more and more I grow as a person (if you can call it that), the more I am bothered by religion in society.

I was raised in a strict Christian household that never bothered to question things. God is God. His son is Jesus. The Bible is the perfect and only Holy Word. Case closed.

Then I came to college.

I want to believe in God. I want to just know that God is real, and that Jesus is real, and that the Bible is completely accurate. Can you blame me? For eighteen straight years I had this stuff fed to me constantly. Can you blame me for wanting to believe what I was taught is true?

Now I come to college, begin to think for myself, and realize that religion in drowning in bullshit. And, to be honest, it pisses me off a little bit. It makes me wonder why millions and millions of people believe in this stuff. Are they so much more ahead-of-the-game than I am that they simply grasp something I cannot?

Do Christians in this society of ours ever pause to think of others? America is such a haughty holier-than-though society, and this attitude spawns off into Christianity. To a typical Christian in America, they are going to heaven, members of all other religions are going to hell, and I'm going to hell as well if I don't stop this blabbering and just admit that Jesus is the only one who can save me. Doesn't that bother anyone? What makes these people think they're so special? 'Cause they were born in America? I refuse to label myself as a member of a group that doesn't think.

A Christian will tell me that a faithful Shintuist from Japan will be burning in hell someday for not being Christian. If you're God, does that really seem fair? Condemming people to enternal burning and torture all because they were born in a different culture than your chosen people? I would think not, which is exactly why I am questioning things.

It's important to realize that I'm not questioning "God" nearly as much as I am questioning "Christianity". Have you ever investigated the Bible? Orgazmo and I watched a Penn and Teller production the other day that broke down the Bible and showed why it is ridiculous to view it as a flawless document - which is exactly what most Christians believe.

Do these people not think? That's what bothers me more than anything about this. The closed mindedness of it all. Most Christians I know strike me as ignorant people who have been freightened into believing in a God that they've never even bothered to examen.

For 18 years I lived with two people who never once openly questioned anything about Christianity. Blind faith. 24/7. That is what Christianity calls for. Faith. Believing in something that every part of our brain calls bullshit on. Why do people do this?

Anytime I ask a Christian a challenging question such as "Why does Matthew 1:16 refer to Jacob as the father of Joseph, while Luke 3:23 refers to Heli as the father of the same Joseph? Doesn't that seem like a flaw in the Bible to you?"; I am fed a cookie-cutter smile-because-God-loves-you BS answer such as "God has a plan for all things - you can't question Him like this - it says so in the Bible". Oh how convienent. The very book that I just demonstrated to you as being inaccurate is now being cited against me for the reason I shouldn't question it. Are you human? Did you listen to what you just said? How can you actually believe that the Bible is perfect when it clearly contradicts itself several different times?

You know, maybe what bothers me the most about "Christianity" is the fact that millions of people believe in something they have never questioned, nor would still be likely to believe in if, with an open mind, were exposed to athiest propaganda.

These are the types of questions I want answered for me. "Have faith" is no longer good enough. This post is merely the tip of the iceberg as to how I really feel. I am not an able enough writer to articulate all of my thoughts in a short enough post that people will actually read, so this is what you get.

I refuse to lead my life being a close minded member of the herd being shuffled closer to death while burning an hour in church every Sunday trying to make ourselves feel better about being a self-righteous prick (which is exactly what a lot of "Christians" I've met are).

If anyone has these answers for me, I'd love to hear them. And I'm sorry for coming off so hard-core and bitter in this post. I didn't mean for it to read that way, but it certainly does. Think of me as a puzzled young man who simply wishes to validate his life teachings. Pray for me.

-UB

[Repugnant Abomination]

You have a lot of things going on in your post, but I'll try to address them the best I can.

Posting something like this on this message board you're not going to get unbiased answers. It's pretty well known 90% of peeps on this board hate religion so they're just going to be telling you what you want to hear. Let's break this stuff down...

First of all why do you single out Christianity? Do you Islam is any different? Just about every religion out there requires you to believe in its particular set of beliefs if you want to go to heaven or whatever that religions equivalent is. Couldn't someone who lives in South East Asia and practices Buddhism make the same argument you are? "These poor North Americans are raised to be Christian, they'll never beable to achieve Nirvana". And don't bother trying to counter this argument by saying "well at least they don't think we'll burn in hell" because that's not the issue here. The issue you're talking about is your environment largely determines what you believe. That is often very true. You were raised a Christian from childhood, so what chance did you have? At least you're thinking for yourself now. But stop singling out Christianity as if it's the only Religion that requires you to believe in it to get what you want. That kind of bullshit thinking is propaganda in itself.

Perhaps you've had dealings with particularly close minded Christians, but from my own experience they are very the most educated religios people there is. They live in America, not some run down third world country where they don't have books. Most are always willing to engage me in thoughtful debates, and we both usually come away from it learning something new. When was the last time you read about a Christian suicide bomber? What the fuck do you think that is dude?

The question of God is one thst man will always probably struggle to come to terms with, and whatever people do to try and achieve an understanding you should let them even if you don't agree with it. As long as they're not harming anyone. We're at a point in civilization now that something like the Crusades could never go down again. What it really sounds like is you're bitter and angry at your parents and maybe you need to confront them about your upbringing. Christianity has always been there, and it has done good before. Your issue doesn't seem to be with it but with the people who blindly believe in it....Like your parents. Personally I agree with you, I think blind faith is a silly thing to do...Half the time people who believe in the Bible haven't even read the whole thing. How can you believe in something you haven't studied? But I don't think faith is a bad thing...I think being well educated on a topic and then having faith in it if you really believe it is a positive thing. Maybe what you should do is instead searching the Bible for mistakes you should just go back and actually read the book, cover to cover with an open mind and see what you get from it. Don't let outside influences like your parents or your local athiest influence you...Just read it, and then see how you feel and what you think.

[Ugly Bastard]

Yea you made some good points that really turned down the flame in my mind.

You're right about me singling out Christianity.

You're also right about posting this on a message board full of agnostics. That wasn't too smart.

What I would really love more than anything else is to sit down with a Christian that I actually respect. Someone along the lines of C.S. Lewis (if he were still alive). I would like to see what makes them tick. I have seen what makes local Joe Tithe tick, and it's not the same.

Bah. I dunno. Thanks for the post, Repug.

edit: Talking to my parents about this is out of the question. My Mother would instantly tell me that I'm going to hell for thinking about this, and that she'll pray for me; and the conversation would be over. No joke. I can't have serious conversations with my parents. Our viewpoints and personalities don't match-up well enough to accomplish anything. Which makes me sad. I've tried to compromise. Can't say the same for the other party.

-UB

[ December 16, 2005, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:

Do Christians in this society of ours ever pause to think of others? America is such a haughty holier-than-though society, and this attitude spawns off into Christianity. To a typical Christian in America, they are going to heaven, members of all other religions are going to hell, and I'm going to hell as well if I don't stop this blabbering and just admit that Jesus is the only one who can save me. Doesn't that bother anyone? What makes these people think they're so special? 'Cause they were born in America? I refuse to label myself as a member of a group that doesn't think.

A Christian will tell me that a faithful Shintuist from Japan will be burning in hell someday for not being Christian. If you're God, does that really seem fair? Condemming people to enternal burning and torture all because they were born in a different culture than your chosen people? I would think not, which is exactly why I am questioning things.

Do these people not think? That's what bothers me more than anything about this. The closed mindedness of it all.

-UB

Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:
You have all raised some good points, but ultimately, I just don't see how God could turn his back on the 66% of people in the world who are not Christians.

Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:
my arguments are based upon logic and life experience. I can't fathom how a loving God would willfully send someone who lived a meaningfull life to Hell because the person chose not to be a Christian. It's utterly ridiculous, especially when you take into consideration that 66% of the world will share that common fate of going to Hell.

I suppose you should thank your mom for not living in Asia and not being Hindu, Active, since otherwise you would most likely be going to Hell (by your logic). It sickens me to think that getting into Heaven is so whimsical that it's determined by your geographical location.

Interesting thoughts UB. Indeed.

[ December 16, 2005, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: ProfessorNumber ]

[Ugly Bastard]

What's your point? You posted this shit before? I'm not the first person to have come up with these thoughts? Congratulations.

Why do you think I put "Again" in the thread title?

-UB

[bloodyfart]

"As long as they're not harming anyone"
they are harming people by bringing their religious agenda into politics.

look, every religion has its good and its bad. sometimes, the bad is too much to take and you have to leave. there is nothing wrong with that. your faith and love of the lord is all that you need. you dont need to sit with 100 other people in a building every sunday for god to know your love. afterall, he is all knowing. however, you also may not have to leave.

this is like jiu jitsu to me. i love the sport. i love being on the mats. i even love getting my ass kicked. however, i hate 99.9% of the shit surronding the sport. the tournaments are put together at exorbitant fees when they could be run much better for much less (as eveidenced by judo tourneys and wrestling tourneys), the teams demand total loyalty to the point that you shouldnt train with anyone else and if you switch teams, like i have, you are blackballed by everyone, the head of the team is raised to demigod status and shouldnt be questioned, the sport is full of sex offenders, criminals, and scumbags, yet they are revered if they are good at the sport, etc... etc....

however, in the midst of all this crap, i still stay in it cause i have found what i love: the sport. i try to distance myself from all the other shit and take what i can.

i have a friend who was one of the first black belts in the nation, a real pioneer in the sport in america. he is not my friend through jiu jitsu, though; i knew him before i even trained. today, he does not train at all. he will not set foot in an academy, and the sad part is that he actually loves the sport to this day. whenever he is over, he asks me to show him the shit i am learning and he watches dvds and the ufc. the thing is that he cant handle the politics and bullshit he saw. he was around when rorian sued all his brothers for the gracie name. he was severely punished for training with another camp, etc... and now, he misses out on doing what he loves.

the point is that maybe you can find a balance and take the good with the bad. otherwise, you might distance yourself from what you care about to your own detriment.

[ur my bitch]

very good points by all. The problem I have with any religion is that each one damn's the others and they leave little room for tolerance. The fundemental basis of all religions is to be a good person and each religion has its own caveats.

I have a had time when specific religions have all these rules, but in reality, if you break them it is ok because you can confess and start over. More often than not, I see religion as a way to gather money from its followers and the focus on God is often lost.

Also, Brently made very good points and it may be lost on those who don;t train BJJ, but it is very relevant. Actually, BJJ now is how martial arts of all kinds were in the past. That's why I have been a guy not affiliated with a particular gym in so long. so I could train where I want. Now I have an instructor who is open minded and I have a bit more liberty than most at my school. For me it makes no difference because if I am told that I am not free to do what I want as a grown man, I am out and off to another gym. I could give a fuck about rank and about their agenda

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally posted by bloodyfart:
i have a friend who was one of the first black belts in the nation, a real pioneer in the sport in america. he is not my friend through jiu jitsu, though; i knew him before i even trained. today, he does not train at all. he will not set foot in an academy, and the sad part is that he actually loves the sport to this day. whenever he is over, he asks me to show him the shit i am learning and he watches dvds and the ufc. the thing is that he cant handle the politics and bullshit he saw

That is erriely similar to a skydiver that I know (and respect a ton). He just flat out quit jumping 'cause of all the BS politics surrounding the sport; even though he was one of the most talented fliers and best educators out there.

Nice post, same to you ur my bitch.

-UB

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally posted by bloodyfart:
"As long as they're not harming anyone"
they are harming people by bringing their religious agenda into politics.

Fair enough, but can you honestly say that people in politics aren't pushing some agenda, be it religious or not? You're never going to escape that sort of corruption in politics.

This could easily be turned towards the argument about saying "Merry Christmas". It's not my intent to hijack UB's thread, but it is relevent. What is your take on the whole Merry Christmas thing Brent?

[bloodyfart]

"Fair enough, but can you honestly say that people in politics aren't pushing some agenda, be it religious or not? You're never going to escape that sort of corruption in politics. "

true, but their lobby is much larger than the atheists