Go Rick Santelli!

[f3lix]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

Dear State that Obama Won,

You're not as freedom minded as me. I'd like to get into this more, but I've got a secession meeting to go to.

<3 always,

Texas

Dear State that should secede,

Good work. Sadly, the freedom minded people got 2nd in a primary (and actually won all but one of its delegate votes.) We are not the majority, but we are the closest of any state. Plus Nevadans now hate Obama because he told America that they shouldn't take vacations to Las Vegas during an economic downturn.

Sincerely,

The state wishing to lynch Obama.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

epic faggotry itt

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by f3lix

Paul got 2nd in Nevada, which is by far the most freedom-minded state that I can think of.

[f3lix]

If only New Hampshire voted that way... They do have the most promise though, being the home of the Free State Project.

[TwoBlackEyes]

Dear people advocating treason and secession,

If you hate the US so much, you are free to leave.

May I suggest the tax-free paradise of Somalia?

Regards,

Someone who loves the country, even when she doesn't love its leaders.

[TwoBlackEyes]

Originally Posted by f3lix

TBE, if you REALLY think we didn't just get our taxes skyrocketed by these bailouts, then PLEASE let me know where all this money is going to come from. Thin air? Maybe we'll just print some more. Or maybe, just maybe, Obama was right. We cut taxes for most of America (which gives the gov't less money to work with (even though it really didn't)) and then they put together a $1.7 TRILLION spending bill that won't need to be paid for by anybody because it will just come out of thin air.

I don't think you understand how this works.

Our economy is fucked. Fucked. We have to spend money to fix that. If you want to be upset about the money being spent, be upset with the people who fucked things up in the first place. This is triage. If a patient comes into the ER with a gunshot wound and cancer, you treat the gunshot wound before you even look at the cancer.

Believe it or not, a great deal of tax revenue comes from having a bustling economy. Businesses pay taxes as well. And a better employment rate means more people paying into the system. So, believe it or not, fixing the economy DOES increase tax revenue and therefore does help to pay for itself.

The ultimate solution will come with reduced spending. Things like not starting any more wasteful wars in other countries will do a great deal to help with that. Paygo is a great system, but it doesn't always work in the short term.

If you are living 100% debt free and have money to cover all of your bills, that's ideal. But if you get into a car wreck with an uninsured driver, you are probably going to have to go into debt, at least temporarily, to get yourself healthy. SO you can go back to work and earn the money to pay off that debt.

Right now we're in some pretty serious shit and we're looking at a long recovery. Time will tell if Obama has what it takes to get out of it. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. But judging him by the mess he has inherited is rather silly. That's like blaming Bush for 9/11 (and Obama isn't even as far into his term as Bush was at that point).

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

I actually blame Obama for 9/11.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally Posted by TwoBlackEyes

Our economy is fucked. Fucked. We have to spend money to fix that.

Your understanding of economics is like that of most people: piss poor.

It doesn't make sense to dig yourself out of personal debt by spending money recklessly, so why would you think it makes sense for a government to do so?

[DDTempest]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

Your understanding of economics is like that of most people: piss poor.

It doesn't make sense to dig yourself out of personal debt by spending money recklessly, so why would you think it makes sense for a government to do so?

This is a weak metaphor. There is a monumental difference in personal spending and governmental spending. Each and every dollar the government puts into the economy is multiplied within the economy due to the way the fractional reserve system works and the government gets tax revenue from any personal and business profits that arise from that money. Your personal spending does not quite have the same result on your own income.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally Posted by DDTempest

Each and every dollar the government puts into the economy is multiplied within the economy

You're wrong. The government doesn't care about profit or making sensible, growth investments. It is senseless and wasteful spending that devalues our currency, country, and citizens.

[DDTempest]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

You're wrong. The government doesn't care about profit or making sensible, growth investments. It is senseless and wasteful spending that devalues our currency, country, and citizens.

I said nothing about them investing it. It multiplies on its own through the magic that is fractional reserve lending.

[Ugly Bastard]

It doesn't work like that. You can't create value to no end by printing money. That's the same sort of financial engineering shit that got us into this mess in the first place. There's an argument that if the government wastes money that the people will recycle it and make it worth more, but it simply doesn't work like that. They forget that there is a cost in this scenario. The cost is that the government is swallowing up capital that could have been used in a more efficient manner. There is a finite amount of capital in the world. If governments swallow it up for wasteful reasons, we're all the worse off for it. The proof is in the pudding. Look at the GDP per capita of every socialist country of significance relative to us (less Norway who got lucky by waking up on top of a huge oil field).

[DDTempest]

The inflation train left the station the moment the federal reserve was allowed to exist we are just at the part of the ride where the rails are getting lose and the train could fly off the tracks at any moment.

[Ugly Bastard]

Yea... what's your point? If you give the government fiat currency, they're going to abuse it.

[f3lix]

I hate the federal reserve so fucking much. HR1207 FTW!!!

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by TwoBlackEyes

Dear people advocating treason and secession,

If you hate the US so much, you are free to leave.

May I suggest the tax-free paradise of Somalia?

Regards,

Someone who loves the country, even when she doesn't love its leaders.

Tried that.

Ended up somewhere worse.

Unfortuneately when the big dog fucks things up, it makes all the little Europeans seem not so bad anymore - so they feel even more free to fuck things up. Truth is, your choices for living in a successful and free country are becoming numbered. The UK just raised its personal income tax rate to 50%! There is serious talk of moving to Switzerland or Ireland.
But wouldn't you much, much rather live in America with a non tyrranical form of taxation and respect for personal freedom? I know I would.

[DJ FC]

DDTempest,

It seems like you are confused and do not belong in this discussion with UB. You love to say "fractional-reserve lending" like a dumb little boy who just watched his first You Tube conspiracy theory video. We agree with some of the garbage you say, but your understanding of the topic isn't as robust as UB's. So he's really outclassing you here, but you don't see it because your knowledge of the topic is so slim. It's almost a Catch-22.

[Dent]

The personal income tax is only for £130k and over salaries, and the 'OMG THE BRAINS OF LONDON ARE GONNA EXODUS' is bullshit, because its happening everywhere, Ireland is feeling it too.
(not saying that its a good thing that its happening everywhere)
Switzerland seems like the perfect place to be, along with Sweden and such.
GWB : I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, but it just seems a lot of your posts are telling other people theyre wrong without explaining why, I'm probably seeing this as a republican vs democrat thing though, but McCain was for the bailout.

TBE : that whole 'love your country' thing is bullshit.
I just bought a fishing license, and it felt good, because If I wan't to go fishing, I pay for the upkeep of the rivers, and its my choice.
What's wrong is being forced to pay for something you disagree with, like road tax where only a small % of it goes on the roads.


Edit : UB, what about the idea of some things being staple? do you think there's anything the government should be responsible for? is profit making the only way to improve a country?

[DDTempest]

Originally Posted by George W. Bush

DDTempest,

It seems like you are confused and do not belong in this discussion with UB. You love to say "fractional-reserve lending" like a dumb little boy who just watched his first You Tube conspiracy theory video. We agree with some of the garbage you say, but your understanding of the topic isn't as robust as UB's. So he's really outclassing you here, but you don't see it because your knowledge of the topic is so slim. It's almost a Catch-22.

Clearly I am out of my league here or not expressing myself correctly. Please carry on your economic discussion so that I can learn from the masters.

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by Dent

The personal income tax is only for £130k and over salaries, and the 'OMG THE BRAINS OF LONDON ARE GONNA EXODUS' is bullshit, because its happening everywhere, Ireland is feeling it too.

It's not really that much bullshit. Why should you take risks with your career which could really create a lot of value for society if the upside is cut in half? Why work so hard and create so much wealth when well over half (don't forget VAT, stamp duty, etc) of your earnings go to the government? At some point you just gotta say "Well I could be busting my ass and working hard and making a killing, or I could make 50% as much but spend more time with my family instead since the government is going to take my money anyways"

Spending time with your family is great and all, but it doesn't make a society wealthy. The poorest 50% of Americans pay only 3% of income tax. They depend on the wealth creation of those on the very top. Without the high income earners and wealth creators we couldn't have all the social services that the bottom 50% have come to depend on. But those at the top will start to say "fuck you, I'll just retire 5 years earlier." On the margin, it's true. It's Econ 101.

As for moving. Maybe less people move than threaten to. But less companies will be founded in London. If I want to start a bank, tech firm, etc. where the employees will be the top of their field and the wealth we will be creating will be vast and the employees will be able to earn £150k+/year, I would be more likely to open up shop in a country with a favorable tax structure. Also Econ 101. And yes, some people will move. I wasn't kidding when I said we were considering a move.

[angry pancake]

I really can't remember at any time ever making a planned decision based on taxes.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

Long ago a wise GWB told me the majority of them don't really do it for the money when I asked why rich people keep working when they are already millionaires/billionaires.

[Ugly Bastard]

They respect themselves too much to sit around doing nothing.

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by angry pancake

I really can't remember at any time ever making a planned decision based on taxes.

You might not.

But in Lichtenstein, where the marginal rate is 90%, you can bet your ass people do. And at 50% in the UK, I'm looking for other options.

And companies do ALL THE TIME.

The higher the tax rates, the more resources companies devote to avoiding taxes, resources which could be used to benefit the economy instead.

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by THEINCREDIBLEdork

Long ago a wise GWB told me the majority of them don't really do it for the money when I asked why rich people keep working when they are already millionaires/billionaires.

This is true. But I'm not talking about billionaires. I'm talking about the people who make $100,000 - $1,000,000 year. Most people in this range are rich, but not rich enough to do anything they want for the rest of their lives with 100% confidence that they can afford not to work.