Who are you voting for? - Page 8 - Nubblies.net Forums

Heaven Can Wait · 10-05-2008, 03:53 AM

no.. A persons wealth is largely based on who your family are, there's a reason companies have 'ltd' at the end, they can't lose, if they get taxed more they will still be rich? Maybe they won't be able to buy their cousin that car they wanted, but fuck that, the rich will still make a profit. Still a large unjustified profit too.
I really don't buy your logic, it's the tail wagging the dog.
I agree with the point that if everyone earns the same nothing would get done, but that's not the case, England gets taxed bigtime, it's still relatively wealthy.
ID, again they would still make a profit, plus there's the incentive of having self worth, helping others and such.
Feel free to do some more Europe bashing, it holds no weight.
Poker is just a shitty distribution of wealth, it serves no real purpose, it's bullshit, and it's greed that makes the world turn.

Ugly Bastard · 10-05-2008, 10:51 AM

Youre right that wealth isn't exclusively measured by one's checking account. In truth, wealth is a lot more illiquid. For example, Orgazmo has much less raw money than I do, but I don't consider him to be significantly less wealthy than myself. The reason for this is because he has value as a trusted mediator and reliable friend. That's worth something to people. I don't have as much of that value because I'm a huge self-serving jackass. Will this difference between us directly result in more coin in Orgazmo's bank account? Maybe, maybe not. There's too much variance in life to say for sure. But one thing that is certain: Orgazmo can go to sleep at night knowing he is a wise, honest individual. That's something money can't buy.

Regarding your point about England still being "relatively" wealthy; you're right again. As long as you're splitting hairs, why don't you tell us exactly how much of the wealth that I generate I should be allowed to keep, and how much should go to the government? What is the ceiling on my freedom to generate dollars for myself? Socialist politicians seem to think that answering this question is within their capacity. Do you?

Heaven Can Wait · 10-05-2008, 11:27 AM

by family, I meant how you are raised, lots of rich people have contributed little, but you can't really hold that against them.
As for the tax thing, ideally it would be best with just donations for everything, it pisses everyone off when they see their cash wasted, but I honestly believe as a society certain people (my brother, autism) have to be looked after, and I'd much rather have money wasted on bullshit, and have the essentials (including medical) sorted, we no longer need the natural selection mindset.
I don't think anyone knows how much the government should be able to take from you, ideally none, there is a point when your freedom has to be restricted, to help others.

DJ FC · 10-05-2008, 11:28 AM

Devil's advocate time:

Quote:

Originally Posted by THEINCREDIBLEdork

the president has nothing to do with most issues that are pissed and moaned about: the environment, fag rights, economy, etc. whoever controls the house/senate is what matters.

The president has more to say on most social issues such as abortion than anyone else: the president gets to nominate supreme court justices!

Quote:

I'd rather be lower class in America than middle class in Europe any day!

I disagree. A little bit of a stretch don't you think?

Ugly Bastard · 10-05-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heaven Can Wait

As for the tax thing, ideally it would be best with just donations for everything.

I agree 100%... but this is probably another topic for another thread.

Ugly Bastard · 10-05-2008, 11:39 AM

Perhaps that is a bit of a stretch Chad. But the fact that it's only a bit of a stretch speaks to my larger point. Let me put it this way: I'd rather be in the 33rd %tile of Americans than the 50th %tile of Europeans.

Repugnant Abomination · 10-05-2008, 02:27 PM

I agree with you guys in principle, but I think you're naive if you think things are really fair. Like, all you have to do is roll up your sleeves and work super duper hard, to be rich and successful in America. For most people the game is fixed. You can bust your ever loving ass and still struggle to get by. And the fact is a lot of people in really poor places just don't have the same chances that others do, because they were born into a shitty situation. That's the part I think you guys neglect the most: a lot of life is decided on circumstances that the person has no control over.

But as I've said before, it's not so much the taxes issue that has swayed me towards Obama, it's social issues and foreign policy. McCain is far too hawkish for my taste, especially after eight years of Bush.

It's always an interesting struggle for me though, because I'm very left on social issues, but a firm libertarian on fiscal issues, which is a bit of an oxymoron. I guess I want to have it both ways

Either way, I'll pray for you.

Ugly Bastard · 10-05-2008, 03:18 PM

You're not alone, Repug. You and I's political beliefs probably aren't altogether that much different, I just don't place as much weight on the social issues.

DJ FC · 10-05-2008, 03:32 PM

Repug, a couple thoughts about your post:

People confuse "working hard" with working smart. Just because you bust your ass doesn't mean you are going to succeed. But if you "work hard" at making your work more effective, and levering up your strenghts, taking risks, and seizing oportunities, then you may succeed. You might not even have to work hard if you are smart enough to recognize the best opportunities and have the balls to take them when they are presented.

As to the game being fixed for most people I disagree. The problem is that many people think the game is fixed and don't realize how much potential there is in the world for success and how risk and failure are probably a part of the game. I blame a lot of this on our sub-par education system and a culture of ignorance in poorer and rural communities (such as the one I came from). It's hard to show kids that you really can have what you want if you are smart enough to recognize oportunities; especially when they are emo and think life sucks from the start.

This is all true for America. So what you are saying is true from one perspective and not from others: circumstance can dictate how successful someone will be. The difference is it's mostly the belief in this fact that makes it true! It's a catch 22, and a self-fulfiling prophecy. Anyone can succeed in America.

Repugnant Abomination · 10-05-2008, 04:33 PM

I guess it's whether or not you see the glass half full or half empty.

Heaven Can Wait · 10-06-2008, 12:32 PM

UB, how would a donation system of voting work for... Staple tax?
Road tax and such? All schools would be private, and people wouldnt be able to afford that. All private health services would have to pay into a governing body...
What about a compulsary % of your wages (not a clue how to work that out) and be able to distribute it as you like? It would be closer to a democracy.
I dunno.

Mr. Blonde · 10-06-2008, 12:58 PM

Mr. Blonde · 10-06-2008, 01:14 PM

hilarious fark thread. HILARIOUS.

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comm...IDLink=3918693

Heaven Can Wait · 10-06-2008, 02:20 PM

that McCain double click advert is LOL
Also, why do iPhones capitalise LOL? Fuck.

Ironic Mustache · 10-06-2008, 03:54 PM

Blonde was that you who was complaining about the word maverick recently? I wanted to fucking shoot myself during the VP debate.

Repugnant Abomination · 10-06-2008, 03:59 PM

That's because you're not a maverick. A maverick would never shoot themself.

Maverick.

DJ FC · 10-06-2008, 04:06 PM

Seems to me like the internet hipsters should start liking Republicans... the Democrat cock sucking has gone on for a loooong time now. Sooner or later it has to stop being cool to be liberal on the internet.

Repugnant Abomination · 10-06-2008, 04:22 PM

Yeehaw!

Mr. Blonde · 10-06-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironic Mustache

Blonde was that you who was complaining about the word maverick recently? I wanted to fucking shoot myself during the VP debate.

yes and agreed. seriously. you guys see this? I may have posted it already.

Ugly Bastard · 10-10-2008, 01:38 PM

Holy crap! For a moment... I actually sorta like Obama.

Some highlights:

Quote:

Obama...called for a program of loans for small businesses made through either the federal Small Business Administration's Disaster Loan Program or by private lenders.

Quote:

The plan also would eliminate all capital gains taxes for small businesses and start-ups

Quote:

"This is not a time for ideology. This is a time for common sense and a politics of pragmatism," Obama said.

I'm warming up to the idea of this guy being in office. I think, left alone with his own ideological stances, it's scary to think of him as President. But to his credit, he seems smart enough to realize the benefits of taking advice from a wide range of credible, experienced people. Leadership by collaboration is fine by me. Hell... anything by collaboration is usually way more efficient than relying on a sole individual (see: Bush getting advice from above on what to do regarding Iraq... eek!)

Ironic Mustache · 10-10-2008, 01:49 PM

You should make this your new avatar:

Mr. Blonde · 10-10-2008, 02:08 PM

thats what i've been saying (albeit not on here much) the whole fucking time. people keep on throwing around terms like "socialist" and "elitist" about him, like if we elect him we're going to turn into the fucking USSR. He's the president, he's going to have advice from tons of other people and he isn't going to do shit thats going to get him impeached.

Mr. Blonde · 10-10-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

Quote:

"This is not a time for ideology. This is a time for common sense and a politics of pragmatism," Obama said.

P.S., I don't care who you are, raising the taxes for over 250k bracket and giving breaks to those under is pragmatic and makes a lot of sense to me to get the middle class back on their feet. ESPECIALLY now.

Ironic Mustache · 10-10-2008, 02:14 PM

I'm not sure why I just noticed that you have a picture pf a cat eating spaghetti as your 'tar but I approve.

Mr. Blonde · 10-10-2008, 02:20 PM

YouTube - Spaghetti Cat

View Poll Results: Who are you voting for?
Barack Obama	11	50.00%
John McCain	7	31.82%
Hilary Clinton	1	4.55%
Other	3	13.64%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

10-05-2008, 03:53 AM	#176 (permalink)
Heaven Can Wait English. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: England Posts: 868 Internets: 179	no.. A persons wealth is largely based on who your family are, there's a reason companies have 'ltd' at the end, they can't lose, if they get taxed more they will still be rich? Maybe they won't be able to buy their cousin that car they wanted, but fuck that, the rich will still make a profit. Still a large unjustified profit too. I really don't buy your logic, it's the tail wagging the dog. I agree with the point that if everyone earns the same nothing would get done, but that's not the case, England gets taxed bigtime, it's still relatively wealthy. ID, again they would still make a profit, plus there's the incentive of having self worth, helping others and such. Feel free to do some more Europe bashing, it holds no weight. Poker is just a shitty distribution of wealth, it serves no real purpose, it's bullshit, and it's greed that makes the world turn.
	there is little I wouldn't do for a dolphin.

10-05-2008, 11:27 AM	#178 (permalink)
Heaven Can Wait English. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: England Posts: 868 Internets: 179	by family, I meant how you are raised, lots of rich people have contributed little, but you can't really hold that against them. As for the tax thing, ideally it would be best with just donations for everything, it pisses everyone off when they see their cash wasted, but I honestly believe as a society certain people (my brother, autism) have to be looked after, and I'd much rather have money wasted on bullshit, and have the essentials (including medical) sorted, we no longer need the natural selection mindset. I don't think anyone knows how much the government should be able to take from you, ideally none, there is a point when your freedom has to be restricted, to help others.
	there is little I wouldn't do for a dolphin.

10-05-2008, 03:32 PM	#184 (permalink)
DJ FC MURICAN Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 5,136 Internets: 253094	Repug, a couple thoughts about your post: People confuse "working hard" with working smart. Just because you bust your ass doesn't mean you are going to succeed. But if you "work hard" at making your work more effective, and levering up your strenghts, taking risks, and seizing oportunities, then you may succeed. You might not even have to work hard if you are smart enough to recognize the best opportunities and have the balls to take them when they are presented. As to the game being fixed for most people I disagree. The problem is that many people think the game is fixed and don't realize how much potential there is in the world for success and how risk and failure are probably a part of the game. I blame a lot of this on our sub-par education system and a culture of ignorance in poorer and rural communities (such as the one I came from). It's hard to show kids that you really can have what you want if you are smart enough to recognize oportunities; especially when they are emo and think life sucks from the start. This is all true for America. So what you are saying is true from one perspective and not from others: circumstance can dictate how successful someone will be. The difference is it's mostly the belief in this fact that makes it true! It's a catch 22, and a self-fulfiling prophecy. Anyone can succeed in America.
	The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.

10-06-2008, 12:32 PM	#186 (permalink)
Heaven Can Wait English. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: England Posts: 868 Internets: 179	UB, how would a donation system of voting work for... Staple tax? Road tax and such? All schools would be private, and people wouldnt be able to afford that. All private health services would have to pay into a governing body... What about a compulsary % of your wages (not a clue how to work that out) and be able to distribute it as you like? It would be closer to a democracy. I dunno.
	there is little I wouldn't do for a dolphin.

10-05-2008, 10:51 AM	#177 (permalink)
Ugly Bastard Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 13,643 Internets: 247330	Youre right that wealth isn't exclusively measured by one's checking account. In truth, wealth is a lot more illiquid. For example, Orgazmo has much less raw money than I do, but I don't consider him to be significantly less wealthy than myself. The reason for this is because he has value as a trusted mediator and reliable friend. That's worth something to people. I don't have as much of that value because I'm a huge self-serving jackass. Will this difference between us directly result in more coin in Orgazmo's bank account? Maybe, maybe not. There's too much variance in life to say for sure. But one thing that is certain: Orgazmo can go to sleep at night knowing he is a wise, honest individual. That's something money can't buy. Regarding your point about England still being "relatively" wealthy; you're right again. As long as you're splitting hairs, why don't you tell us exactly how much of the wealth that I generate I should be allowed to keep, and how much should go to the government? What is the ceiling on my freedom to generate dollars for myself? Socialist politicians seem to think that answering this question is within their capacity. Do you?

10-05-2008, 11:39 AM	#181 (permalink)
Ugly Bastard Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 13,643 Internets: 247330	Perhaps that is a bit of a stretch Chad. But the fact that it's only a bit of a stretch speaks to my larger point. Let me put it this way: I'd rather be in the 33rd %tile of Americans than the 50th %tile of Europeans.

10-05-2008, 02:27 PM	#182 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 164547	I agree with you guys in principle, but I think you're naive if you think things are really fair. Like, all you have to do is roll up your sleeves and work super duper hard, to be rich and successful in America. For most people the game is fixed. You can bust your ever loving ass and still struggle to get by. And the fact is a lot of people in really poor places just don't have the same chances that others do, because they were born into a shitty situation. That's the part I think you guys neglect the most: a lot of life is decided on circumstances that the person has no control over. But as I've said before, it's not so much the taxes issue that has swayed me towards Obama, it's social issues and foreign policy. McCain is far too hawkish for my taste, especially after eight years of Bush. It's always an interesting struggle for me though, because I'm very left on social issues, but a firm libertarian on fiscal issues, which is a bit of an oxymoron. I guess I want to have it both ways Either way, I'll pray for you.

10-05-2008, 03:18 PM	#183 (permalink)
Ugly Bastard Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 13,643 Internets: 247330	You're not alone, Repug. You and I's political beliefs probably aren't altogether that much different, I just don't place as much weight on the social issues.

10-05-2008, 04:33 PM	#185 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 164547	I guess it's whether or not you see the glass half full or half empty.

10-06-2008, 12:58 PM	#187 (permalink)
Mr. Blonde Spice Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 17,969 Internets: 284106

10-06-2008, 01:14 PM	#188 (permalink)
Mr. Blonde Spice Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 17,969 Internets: 284106	hilarious fark thread. HILARIOUS. http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comm...IDLink=3918693

10-06-2008, 02:20 PM	#189 (permalink)
Heaven Can Wait English. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: England Posts: 868 Internets: 179	that McCain double click advert is LOL Also, why do iPhones capitalise LOL? Fuck.
	there is little I wouldn't do for a dolphin.

10-06-2008, 03:54 PM	#190 (permalink)
Ironic Mustache G'd up from the feet up. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cali Posts: 7,146 Supreme Emperor of the Jiu Jitsu Shit Forum?: Yes Internets: 114735	Blonde was that you who was complaining about the word maverick recently? I wanted to fucking shoot myself during the VP debate.
	Creeping around as I please nonchalantly like any other Supreme Emperor might.

10-06-2008, 03:59 PM	#191 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 164547	That's because you're not a maverick. A maverick would never shoot themself. Maverick.

10-06-2008, 04:06 PM	#192 (permalink)
DJ FC MURICAN Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 5,136 Internets: 253094	Seems to me like the internet hipsters should start liking Republicans... the Democrat cock sucking has gone on for a loooong time now. Sooner or later it has to stop being cool to be liberal on the internet.
	The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.

10-06-2008, 04:22 PM	#193 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 164547	Yeehaw!

10-10-2008, 01:49 PM	#196 (permalink)
Ironic Mustache G'd up from the feet up. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cali Posts: 7,146 Supreme Emperor of the Jiu Jitsu Shit Forum?: Yes Internets: 114735	You should make this your new avatar:
	Creeping around as I please nonchalantly like any other Supreme Emperor might.

10-10-2008, 02:08 PM	#197 (permalink)
Mr. Blonde Spice Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 17,969 Internets: 284106	thats what i've been saying (albeit not on here much) the whole fucking time. people keep on throwing around terms like "socialist" and "elitist" about him, like if we elect him we're going to turn into the fucking USSR. He's the president, he's going to have advice from tons of other people and he isn't going to do shit thats going to get him impeached.

10-10-2008, 02:14 PM	#199 (permalink)
Ironic Mustache G'd up from the feet up. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cali Posts: 7,146 Supreme Emperor of the Jiu Jitsu Shit Forum?: Yes Internets: 114735	I'm not sure why I just noticed that you have a picture pf a cat eating spaghetti as your 'tar but I approve.
	Creeping around as I please nonchalantly like any other Supreme Emperor might.

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