Mr. Blonde's Internship Happenings

[AcTivE]

i've not been really in a fist fight...meaning punches to the face. i used to fight lots with brothers...but we would never intentionally hit each other in the face--because after all, we are brothers, no reason to do that...

but i've come pretty close to becoming unconscious, and have definetely blacked out (was still conscious, just everything fuzzy, and black). i've been bloodied up a bit too...

the reason i'm about pressure points is because that is what would make me flip out and say plead for them to stop. i can handle them fairly well now though, just because they've been done so much...

again, don't know much about ji jitsu moves, but i have been shown how easy it is to put someone into submission if you know what you are doing--and they don't.

to me, as soon as my elbow is controlled, im fucked unless i can turn it. i don't see how anyone could continue fighting in that position, you could just bend their arm the other way if they don't stop, then they can't use it anymore..

pressure points im taking about that i think are effective are one's on neck (right next to ear), and the nose (pushing it up w/your fingers)...and sometimes achieles tendon works pretty well (on some people)

[bloodyfart]

i know the points you are talking about, and while you are trying to hit an exact spot, they are punching you in the face.

pressure points work for passive assailants. people actively trying to hurt you will not be stopped by a pressure point and they will end up getting you hurt.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Pressure points are bullshit. Try that crap on me while I'm doing a double leg take down and dropping bombs on your face.

[AcTivE]

yea getting someone in a headlock with your legs then shitting on their face is pretty good move

[MAGICLIT]

That reminds me of a sexual escapade.........

[Deadly Crescent Kick]

a brownshower is even out of my league...

back on topic:

i'll echo everything the fartmeister has already said.

DJ FC also brought up a good point. pain compliance techniques only work it the person you're applying them to can feel pain.

drunks, druggies, or tough bastards in general won't give a shit. as BF mentioned, they are very hard to apply precisely to a fully resisting opponent. and even if you can hit one, they might smirk at you and get even more pissed off.

i agree that cops have enough weapons that they shouldn't have to resort to hand to hand but there are 2 things here:

1. cops get surprised just like anyone else

2. people ARE sue happy

you choke a guy out the right way, you put him to sleep. no marks, no damage.

you crack a guy w/ a batton or mace them and they keep coming at you... rinse and repeat

what's really fucked up is in many states cops are not allowed to choke out perps. if cops were trained correctly to use blood chokes (there's a difference), the outcome would be a lot more humane then have to beat someone down w/ a stick.

[Beebs]

I think police training would focus more on positional control, like judo and greco roman. Most police confrontations are similar to a clinch and should consist of putting the perp on the ground, and cuffing him, pulling guard or any sort of submission more complex than a keylock won't really come up.

[ May 19, 2005, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Beebs ]

[Beebs]

And just to add some fun to the post, heres Fedor fighting his brother Aleksander in a combat Sambo tournament, they agreed not to strike despite it being legal in the tournament.
1116549306.mpeg

[Repugnant Abomination]

I can understand cops training for this, but really it should never even get to close combat like that. Cops have an array of tools to put someone down before they even lay a finger on them.

Btw that was a sweet vid, thanks beeps.

[ May 19, 2005, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Repugnant Abomination ]

[Mr. Blonde]

Holy shit, I missed a shit fuck ton. I fucking hate dial up more than terrorists.

Originally posted by bloodyfart:

about pressure points, you are right, they hurt. but someone causing me pain does not stop the fight. how many real fights have you been in? by real, i mean , as an adult, where the fight doesnt end until one of you can no longer fight cause they are unconsciouss. if you have been in one, then you will know that adrenaline is the best painkiller that there is. you dont feel shit when you get hit. when your face gets wet, you start wondering when it started raining,then you realize its blood. this is a totally different mindset. you cannot stop a man in that mindset and state of chemical numbness with something like pressure on his armpit.

I agree with this to an extent. As it was mentioned after this (i don't feel like quoting a lot), there are certain pressure points that do work and some they won't always work. I don't think they should be something that should always be applied, unless you're damn sure they'll work, and you have ample opportunity and knowledge to apply them correctly. Most people who think they're doing pressure point moves that arent working (those who can't feel pain due to state of mind aside) are probably not applying pressure to the point enough or even on the point at all.

As it was also said, pressure points are more useful for passive people like the suprascapular jugular to move people out of the way and using the radial and median nerve...also goosenecks on the hand...you get the point. I see pressure points more as supplements than sole fighting techniques...used as distractions until you can use a straight arm bar or another technique to get the suspect into a submissive state where you are able to cuff them.

What some of you BJJ guys aren't thinking about is one major factor; a gun. The LAST thing a cop wants is to take a fight to the ground, into a wrestling groundfight...the first thing the suspect will go for is the gun, and unless they have a security holster (not many do yet), it's real fucking easy to get that gun. Even if the officer is holding onto the gun, the guy is probably hitting him in the face getting him to let go...etc. etc. It's very easy for a cop to get fucked because he has a lot more at stake if he gets a fight taken to the ground.

Basically I think that the current form of self defense that cops and such are taught is effective, but much more attention should be paid to cops using, practicing and maintaining the techniques, like monthly refreshers and fitness quotas. Most cops learn the shit in training and never do it again, then when they have to use it they usually do it wrong or just pull out a weapon immediately and start whacking away.

In regard to use of force, you're supposed to start out with passive ones like talking then moving to using your hands for digit pressure points, then submission, then impact weapons, then lethal weapons. You're allowed to skip straight to lethal if the guy pulls out a knife or whatever, though. A lot of what they've been teaching is that you have to have a "mean streak"...if that fucker is on top of you on the ground trying to get your gun, if all you can do is gouge his eyes, you stick your fingers through his fucking head. Because if you don't he might get that gun and you might not go home. IF he goes blind, tough shit. That's going to be a hard lawsuit for him to win if he's trying to get your gun.



Now. Today we did preliminary firearms training with Glock 22 .40 caliber pistols. I've only fired a pistol once before for a Military Science class I took and that was like one clip or something. This morning we did the usual classes blah blah boring shit then schematics of the gun, how to take it apart, proper range behavior, then after lunch we got to fire all afternoon. I'd say we fired between 300-400 round each, it was pretty tight. I'm an ok shot for only the second time shooting, first serious time. Me, the other intern, and a new jail officer qualified to be able to hold a firearm on duty (We don't get one, it was basically for experience). A new jail officer and a new reserve guy did not pass the requirements, but they'll get another chance. We do defensive tactics and firearms again next week.



Damn. I'm gonna go get drunk.

[Deadly Crescent Kick]

i totally agree with you about the gun thing.

you obviously don't want to be wrestling around on the ground w/ a gun in play.

i've trained w/ many cops who are always look to apply BJJ to their restraining positions. they tweak techniques and situations to protect their gunside.

the issue is not that you'd want to put yourself on the ground in certain positions. its just a grim fact that you may end up there.

firearms training is awesome glock 22s are sweet. i own a glock 36 (.45 cal mini)

when i get $$, i want to get an H&K .40 cal C&C version.

[Beebs]

Blone, you and I should go to Shooters, its just off 17, I went there last summer and shot a really nice berretta 92fs 9mm.

[Niger Angelus]

I have a BB rifle.

[AcTivE]

I still think pressure points are effective...

instead of grabbing their head trying to put them in a headlock, move them, whatever, I think you might as well put your hand around your neck/head in such a way as to be hitting the pressure point. might as well, and sometimes, at least imho, pain eases you into other positions.

[Beebs]

Thats great until they oh.....turn their head.

[AcTivE]

it doesn't matter if they turn your head...if you put your hand around the back of their neck (lower part, base of head), they can move their head any way, and you would still be hitting the spot.

i just tried to make sure

[Beebs]

So one hand, around part of the neck, is more secure than one arm wrapped around the entire neck, secured by the other arm....makes total sense.

[AcTivE]

No, and I did not say that. I would argue that it does not make total sense, instead you are making a sarcastic remark of the dickish kind.

I can see how that could be concluded from me saying "headlock" in the previous post though.

If you are in a position to where you can "secure" a headlock, then using both arms would be smarter than sticking your finger on their neck. Most (at least the majority of the people who don't train to fight) don't put people in headlocks that would make them pass out (I think..or at least what I know, you need to be behind the person, so you can line the bone of your forearm on one arm with their vein in their neck--then use other arm to leverage it).

And if you get them in this position, they would not be able to "turn their head".

I've been put in a headlock a many-a-times, and my head is ususally around the person's side. From here, you can reach up to their neck (while hitting pressure point)...and "pull" the person into the direction you see fit. This works, regardless if they turn their head.

It's usually pretty effective too, because *most* people naturally move into a direction they believe will stop pain, so you can coax them into a position where you can do other shit.

I totally agree pressure points aren't a way of fighting, but there are several ones that I know of that are not hard at all to do and can be done without practicing them everyday..

[ May 22, 2005, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Mr. Blonde:
Most cops learn the shit in training and never do it again, then when they have to use it they usually do it wrong or just pull out a weapon immediately and start whacking away.

This is not true, or at least for Indiana State Police. I don't think they are monthly, but I do know defensive tactics are taught besides just initial training.

[ May 22, 2005, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

[Mr. Blonde]

Are they mandatory for every officer, though? Or are they just available?

[AcTivE]

dunno, my guess would be mandatory, but that is just saying something i don't really know for sure.

[Deadly Crescent Kick]

Originally posted by AcTivE:
I still think pressure points are effective...

instead of grabbing their head trying to put them in a headlock, move them, whatever, I think you might as well put your hand around your neck/head in such a way as to be hitting the pressure point. might as well, and sometimes, at least imho, pain eases you into other positions.

i'm sorry, but that's simply not true. that's the problem. you're basing your conclusions/assumptions on theory, not practical experience.

we're done this stuff. i've had people (cops, martial arts "masters") try to use that garbage on me.

what happens? they end up pissing me off and i choke them out.

REALLY hard.

in theory, this bullshit should work too:

http://www.dillman.com/

[bloodyfart]

i dont feel like arguing this much more if you guys are going to live in hypothetical land. i have had these used on me and they do not work. in fact, when a guy tries to grab my throat, he opens himself up to many armbars and such, so they end up hurting the practicioner more than helping.

i have had thousands of hours on the mats. you guys have nowhere near that, yet you think that you know. if you were sick, would you ask the doctor about your illness, or would you go to the guy who has never practiced medicine but watched alot of "e.r"?

i agree that cops should not be wrestling suspects that much due to weapon retention. however, that does not mean that they shouldnt know how to handle themselves when the fight hits the ground. most officers have no fucking clue. this weekend at greco roman, we had a cop who was a former marine come in. he had about as much knowledge on the ground as a kid on a playground. that is just wrong. cops need to know how to move once the fight ends up where it does ninety percent of the time. and while they are wasting time learning pressure points, they could be learning a good base of ground game..

by the way, bjj is more than just working on the ground. bjj also utilizes submissions from the feet. these should especially be emphasized.

check out rorian gracies police tactics info

http://www.gracieacademy.com/programs/letters.asp

[Deadly Crescent Kick]

Originally posted by bloodyfart:
i have had thousands of hours on the mats. you guys have nowhere near that, yet you think that you know. if you were sick, would you ask the doctor about your illness, or would you go to the guy who has never practiced medicine but watched alot of "e.r"?

ooooohhh thats a good one.

i like to use "would you trust a surgeon to operate on you if he's only read books on the subject" type of line. i like the e.r. reference.

[bloodyfart]

thanks.