Why the world is going to hell.

Now I will say that some of the music I listen to may not be the most creative, but jesus I can't believe I keep running into stuff like this:

"From First To Last / Dear Diary, My Teen Angst Has A BodyCount
Label: Epitaph
Year: 2004

1. Soliloquy
2. The One Armed Boxer vs. The Flying Guillotine
3. Note To Self
4. I Liked You Better Before You Were Naked On The Internet.
5. Featuring Some Of Your Favorite Words
6. Emily
7. Secrets Don't Make Friends
8. Populace In Two
9. Kiss Me, I'm Contagious
10. Minuet
11. Ride The Wings Of Pestilence
12. Bonus Track

Screamo at it's BEST!! This band is one to watch!"

I don't think even I could come up with "my teen angst has a body count" when I'm at my best trying to make fun of emo. Jesus Christ this stuff is just rediculous.

I've thought long and hard about what I find offensive about this music, and I think I am starting to come to a few conclusions.

1)Overly emotional music is inherantly bad.
No critically acclaimed music will ever be emotion saturated, whether that be happy (house, techno, epic trance) angry (hardcore, heavy mettle) or sad (emo).

2)There is music in every genre that is good, and this is usually the music that avoids these extreme emotions.

In trance it is the music that makes use of LOTS of moderate emotion only sprinkled with euphoric moments.

In rap it is mellow records that usually conveigh a tone of humor mixed with anger/sadness, but not to an extreme.

Abuse of emotion can happen in pretty much any genre, but I doubt you've ever heard it in classical.

All other music (except hardcore and emo) have artists that make good use of emotions and don't abuse them like kids who spend the night at Neverland Ranch. Now don't go having a sissyfit, I know you can name good artists from these genres, I've allready conceeded that good artsists are in every genre.

All music, with the exception of these "new underground" genres have a sense of admiration of the artists, as if the artists are great. This is a good thing. The entertainers of the past were living legends, this bolsters their confidence and let's admit it, half of music is merely believeing that you are going to like it. Well this newer "more savier" (you are kidding yourselves, by the way) music listening audience will discredit any artist who makes money, and instantly jump on the fucking back of whoever the newest semi-suicidal 26 year old teenager who "puts his heart into his lyrics."

Have I gone overboard? Certainly. Let me try to clean things up a bit.

Fundamentals are more important in music than in any other artform.

Music is a science, and some artists are simply more talented than others.

The best artists truely care about the way their music sounds rather than how harsh they can be on the mic.

Most 80s metal is actually trash.

80s turntableism may be the most underrated music form.

Rap is shallow, and most of it is bad.
Emo is shallow, and most of it is bad, and it takes itself seriously.

Some music takes a much different ear to listen to. IE to listen to a trance set takes much more patience than most post-punk rock era American brats are willing to have.

There is a lot of value in having good music that can just be played in the background and forgotten.

Oh did I mention you shouldn't abuse emotions? Because that pretty much assures that your music is going to suck.

[MAGICLIT]

you gotta be spun dude

[Niger Angelus]

I don't see where you are trying to go. Don't agree, no.

[Niger Angelus]

Under My Mistletoe.

[ March 03, 2005, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Niger Angelus ]

[Fruitacious B]

I agree for the most part, but I do think it is possible for an artist/band to use extreme emotions and be successful. Aside from the few rarities as you mentioned, most do indeed suck, but that's because they're doing it wrong.

For many people, music is an outlet for their emotions, so it would only make sense that the bands that do convey one emotion extremely well aren't bands that you would normally find topping, or even touching the charts. Most of the bands that convey the emotions well are only listened to when the listener is feeling said emotion.

For example, Thursday. Thursday did really well because they took emotion and slapped you in the face with it. While they seem to convey a feeling of discontent which is something that nearly everyone feels, and that some feel all of the time.

While that may fit into your statement that every genre has good music in it; I believe that it can be more broad than that, and that many many bands use emotion to it's most extreme and important potential.

I'd be more inclined to say that the general public, while in search of such a band, has done nothing but increase the rise of such shitty bands as From First to Last. This constant search by every thirteen year old girl with braces has convinced the recording industry that this is what the younger generation wants to hear, and it's completely depressing. And since there's nothing I can do about it but bitch, all I can do is sit around and hope that a good band might possibly get the recognition they deserve.

I kind of went on a bit of a tangent there. I'm not sure if I clearly stated my point, but I think you'll get what I'm saying.

[ March 03, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Fruitacious B ]

[Mr. Blonde]

If it makes you feel better FC, I hate screamo, but as you know I listen to good emo. At least in my opinion. I fucking hate screaming. Use your goddamn voice, don't destroy it. God, I hate screaming.

[the Butcher]

dj, i do believe that i have lost all respect for you. do you realize how many ill-advised statements you made in your post? how many fallacies are truly in that piece of shit you call a thread starter?

Originally posted by DJ FC:
1)Overly emotional music is inherantly bad.
No critically acclaimed music will ever be emotion saturated, whether that be happy (house, techno, epic trance) angry (hardcore, heavy mettle) or sad (emo).[/QB]

i got news for you fucker. beatles were critically acclaimed, and they focused on many emotions, be it happy or sad. nirvana was a critically acclaimed band, and they sang about depression and anger. at the drive in was a critically acclaimed band, and they grew up in the underground scene. to say that overly emotional music is shit is basically the most fucking ignorant slam you can possibly have. you seem to think that there are only three types of music: trance, hardcore and emo. you are a fucking dumbass for thinking that classic rock bands like queen and led zeppelin were not emotion based.

Originally posted by DJ FC:
Some music takes a much different ear to listen to. IE to listen to a trance set takes much more patience than most post-punk rock era American brats are willing to have.

you want to know why it takes patience to listen to trance music? because it's always the same fucking beats over the same shitty electric synthesized riffs. there's no variation in it at all. any dumb fuck with a computer and half a brain could create trance music. an example: i have a friend who writes music on his mtv music generator for playstation and it's better and more creative than mostly any electronic music i've ever heard. quit making your fucking electroshit music genre out to be something great. it's not unique, it's not creative and it's not hard to do. get over it.

you say music like hardcore and emo are shallow, but yet the lyrics to both previous genres are more intellectual, better thought out and more true to life than any other genre. you saying that they are shallow is like me saying that trance is actually music...it's just not true. pull your head out of your ass and turn your fucking turntables down, because the sooner you realize what real music is, the better your life will be.

[Mr. Blonde]

good post.

[Niger Angelus]

Methinks so too.

[MAGICLIT]

Originally posted by MAGICLIT:
you gotta be spun dude

Like I said, he had to be on another planet to come up with that cockamamie thread.

Butcher: admirably spoken

I was actually waiting for somebody to make a rebuttal. But I didn't want this to turn into a trance vs. hardcore emo argument, because well I understand that they are on extreme oposite ends of the spectrum and an argument would be futile.

The reason I didn't mention most classic rock was because it's generally pretty good. It avoids consistant persistant emotion rape.

The Beatles are a perfect example for my point of view: indeed they were good. Did they scream about how bad their lives were? No. Did the eat pills and feel euphoric? No. They had a happy balance, a fun mood generally, but represented the full spectrum of emotions without raping any of them.

I do not believe that music isn't about emotion. I never said that at all. Indeed, it's quite the oposite. Queen and Led Zepplin used emotion, but they didn't rape it like the new Emo/Hardcore.

The reason "I think that all music is composed of trance emo and hardcore" isn't that I actually believe those are the only genres, it's that they are the extremes. Hardcore is angry. Emo is sad. Trance (especially euphoric and epic trance) are happy. These genres become worn and tired, unless you become sucked into them. I've seen it over and over. There is good trance, just as I'm sure there is good hardcore and emo. But to find the good shit you have to be willing to sort through all the extreme shit (in trance we call it "cheese") and for hardcore and emo, it's not worth my while personally. Perhaps this is because I don't use music as an outlet for emotions. If this is the case, then it is quite reasonalbe that some would listen to hardcore/emo, but I would question whether listening to it is some form of therapy, or whether you begin to become "sucked" into the habit of listening to it to the point that it becomes habit, and a part of your life. If this is the case (which it seems to be for countless people I encounter) then I would say there is a problem.

I still contend that the best music, of any genre, does not abuse a single emotion, but uses all of them or most of them in turn and not forcefully.
Look at classical (most still contend that classical is the best) classical is not "Hardcore" classical is not "euphoric." Does it avoid all emotion? Certainly not. But it usues them with care.

Sorry if i wasnt clear in my first post.

Edit: Here is the analogy I've always had in my head and it certainly works for me. Music is like food. You don't want to over abuse a single flavor, this is what children do. They can and will eat pure sugar or fat. Animals will eat a chunk of butter. As you grow up your tastes change and you learn that the foods that are truely good are the ones that don't abuse one single flavor, rather they use the flavors against each other tactfully to balance and counterbalance each other. Some people's palets mature more than others. Music is the same way.

[ March 04, 2005, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: DJ FC ]

[Mr. Blonde]

I've come to the conclusion that DJ FC bases everything he hears about music on JUST the sound, and not the lyrics, which are an extremely important component to music. He hates the way emo sounds, and because "good" music doenst sound like it, although it may contain the same type of lyrical content (aka emotions, which he still denies that no popular band is "saturated" with) that a lot of other types of music have as well, he assumes that because emo shows emotion in voice that it's the only kind of emotional music.

This is not true.

The reason most emo is bad in my mind IS the lyrics. Here: I'll write your typical emo song:

I'm a lonely teenager
The government hates me
nobody trusts me, nobody will be my friend
I'm too insecure, yet I wish to share my feelings
I need to be different
I need to get away
Life is one sick joke after another and I'm just here all alone in the rain outside of the party looking in at everyone else who is having fun.

[the Butcher]

Originally posted by DJ FC:
The reason I didn't mention most classic rock was because it's generally pretty good. It avoids consistant persistant emotion rape.

wow. you really have no perception of the history or creation of music. every fucking song that a band writes, be it a hardcore band, emo band, punk band, classic rock, pop rock, whatever...is based off of emotions that the person is feeling. led zeppelin's "gotta whole lotta love" for example, is written about how robert plant obviously had a feeling of love for another human. everything is based off of emotions, that's what lyrics are. whenever a person writes lyrics, they are doing so because of their emotions and the way they are feeling. you're fucking blind to say that music that is emotional is bad, because every fucking song ever written was done so because someone had an emotion they wanted to get across.

Originally posted by DJ FC:
The Beatles are a perfect example for my point of view: indeed they were good. Did they scream about how bad their lives were? No. Did the eat pills and feel euphoric? No. They had a happy balance, a fun mood generally, but represented the full spectrum of emotions without raping any of them.

did they scream? no, because that's not the way they delivered their vocals. did they eat pills and feel euphoric? fuck yes they did. they did more drugs than mostly any band nowadays. every one of their songs was written because they felt a certain way about something. their happy songs are generally about something that happened or that they did that made them happy. you can't tell me it's not true, because they wouldn't write that way if that's not the way they feel.

Originally posted by DJ FC:
The reason "I think that all music is composed of trance emo and hardcore" isn't that I actually believe those are the only genres, it's that they are the extremes. Hardcore is angry. Emo is sad. Trance (especially euphoric and epic trance) are happy. These genres become worn and tired, unless you become sucked into them. I've seen it over and over. There is good trance, just as I'm sure there is good hardcore and emo. But to find the good shit you have to be willing to sort through all the extreme shit (in trance we call it "cheese") and for hardcore and emo, it's not worth my while personally. Perhaps this is because I don't use music as an outlet for emotions. If this is the case, then it is quite reasonalbe that some would listen to hardcore/emo, but I would question whether listening to it is some form of therapy, or whether you begin to become "sucked" into the habit of listening to it to the point that it becomes habit, and a part of your life. If this is the case (which it seems to be for countless people I encounter) then I would say there is a problem.

blonde nailed it right when he said that you focus on only what it sounds like. hardcore was a scene that was dominantly christian only a few years ago. you could not hear a hardcore band whose lyrics were not praising jesus and religion. to say that hardcore is angry is a fucking ignorant insult that has no basis or truth in it. the lyrics are one of the most important aspects of a band, be them good or bad.

for some it's therapy, because of how well the lyrics relate to some people. if you've never been that person who sits in the corner at parties not talking to anybody, then you wouldn't relate. however, for that soul whose life is always like that, it's a way for him/her to release emotions that had been built up from all of those times. and it's not that people have habits to music, it's the fact that some people listen to a lot of the same genre because they like it. i listen to hardcore every day, not because it's habit but because i actually like it.

and you want to know why classical music's lyrics aren't emotion based? because there's no fucking words you dumbass. it's all music. of course people will think that it's not emotion based, but even that couldn't be farther from the truth. certain classical composers were seen as being too "dark" or "risque" not because of what they were saying, but by the way the music sounded. a good example is the "moonlight sonata" by beethoven. when that came out, people were questioning it because it had a dark feel to it, and people didn't like it. i guarantee when ludwig was writing that, he had a certain emotion he was trying to convey to people, and obviously he did it.

i agree that music and food can be compared in an abstract manner. that's why people don't listen to only one type of music. not every "emo" kid only listens to emo, i'm sure he loves other types too. you base everything off of stereotypes because you don't know enough about it to actually give a good argument. the lyrics you wrote are so ill thought out that yes, if i heard an emo band singing that, i'd make fun of them. however, most bands don't write that blatantly or self-pity like, and if they did, i'm sure that a general concensus would show that most people agree it's not good.

the best way to figure out why a certain group does something is to understand the group more fully. you haven't taken the time to do this, so your arguments are weak and your claims are false. maybe going to a show where hardcore, emo or punk bands play would help you understand. but until then, shut your mouth about music. because you obviously don't know enough about the history, meaning, message, lyrics or art that is "underground" music.

Originally posted by the Butcher:
wow. you really have no perception of the history or creation of music. every fucking song that a band writes, be it a hardcore band, emo band, punk band, classic rock, pop rock, whatever...is based off of emotions that the person is feeling. led zeppelin's "gotta whole lotta love" for example, is written about how robert plant obviously had a feeling of love for another human. everything is based off of emotions, that's what lyrics are. whenever a person writes lyrics, they are doing so because of their emotions and the way they are feeling. you're fucking blind to say that music that is emotional is bad, because every fucking song ever written was done so because someone had an emotion they wanted to get across.

I think this is the general misunderstanding here:

You think that I am saying that emotions are bad.

I am saying that emotions are necessary, but often overused. When one group, or genre uses an emotion so much that it begins to identify itself with that emotion, well I would say that something has gone wrong.

As to the Beatles: Yes they were happy, but they weren't constantly euphoric. The beatles were mellow and even sad at times. They were reflective, yet always managed to be able to lighten any mood. This is good use of emotions.

You are 100% correct to say that I dont have a deep understanding of this music, but I have tried. I've been forced to listen to this music in friends cars, and have even voluntarily induced the listening to give it a shot. Maybe you are more a savy listener than these other kids, this could be our misunderstanding. Because if you claim to like "Dashboard Confessional," but hate the lyrics I typed... well that's hipocracy. I've listened to this trash, and indeed an antire CD is nothing but this lonely-teenager-romantic-fallen-angel-emotion. It can be a complex emotion, yes, but this is the only emotion... or at least the predominant emotion that Dashboard Confessional abuses. Please let me know if this is our disagreement, do you think that DC is good? Or is it the kids who listen to this music who give the genre a bad name?

Edit: I am sorry for the misunderstanding about classical music. I never intended anyone to think that classical was emotionless, rather in my oppinion lots of classical makes wonderful use of all kinds of emotions, but doesnt rape a single one.

[ March 04, 2005, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: DJ FC ]

[GNasty]

I didn't even read any of your arguments, but I know one thing for sure. I hate my life, I'm going to go listen to my EMO music. Then, I'm going to consider how many friends i have (0) and slit my wrists and put them in warm running water!!!

[MAGICLIT]

Good luck with that G

[ March 04, 2005, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: MAGICLIT ]

[the Butcher]

Originally posted by DJ FC:
You are 100% correct to say that I dont have a deep understanding of this music, but I have tried. I've been forced to listen to this music in friends cars, and have even voluntarily induced the listening to give it a shot. Maybe you are more a savy listener than these other kids, this could be our misunderstanding. Because if you claim to like "Dashboard Confessional," but hate the lyrics I typed... well that's hipocracy. I've listened to this trash, and indeed an antire CD is nothing but this lonely-teenager-romantic-fallen-angel-emotion. It can be a complex emotion, yes, but this is the only emotion... or at least the predominant emotion that Dashboard Confessional abuses. Please let me know if this is our disagreement, do you think that DC is good? Or is it the kids who listen to this music who give the genre a bad name?

to begin, yes, i used to like dashboard confessional. and no, i didn't stop liking him because he "sold out", i stopped liking him because he changed his music style and it was a turn for the worse. the lyrics you posted were so incredibly vague and blatant that any dumbass would think they were bad. as i already said, yes, emo lyrics focus on one emotion quite a bit, but the lyrics of good emo bands are almost always more well thought out than what you posted.

the reason that emo focuses so much on the emotions of sadness/loneliness/heartbreak is because that's what the fucking scene was started for. in the early days of emo, not much "underground" melodic, emotional music existed. the scene was dominated by punk bands like minor threat who were all about tearing shit up, causing riots, etc. emo was an outlet for all those kids who didn't exactly feel that punk was the right message and/or genre to be into. hence why it still is centered around emotions, because that's what the music style was created for in the first place.

and yes, for the most part it is the kids who give it a bad name. most bands nowadays don't claim to be emo because of how much of a joke it has become. and yes, also, there are a slew of new bands that have been coming out over the past few years because of a boom in "underground" music among the general public. it has become a tainted scene. instead of having people who are die-hard emo or hardcore fans, you have a bunch of fuckers who like the fashion and decide to make a band. that's why there are so many groups out there that are just trying way too fucking hard to be what they can't understand.

[Fruitacious B]

Originally posted by DJ FC:
.
Perhaps this is because I don't use music as an outlet for emotions. If this is the case, then it is quite reasonalbe that some would listen to hardcore/emo, but I would question whether listening to it is some form of therapy, or whether you begin to become "sucked" into the habit of listening to it to the point that it becomes habit, <font size="14">and a part of your life</font> . If this is the case (which it seems to be for countless people I encounter) then I would say there is a problem.

I'm apalled that you could say that music being a part of your life is a bad thing. Fucking stupid. I'm proud to say that music is the biggest and most influential thing in my life. There are bands and songs that have actually impacted the way I look at and live my life, I don't see how there can be anything wrong with that.

By apart of your life I mean this:

If both of the following are true, then I think there is a problem:

A) You listen to emo when you are sad/ you listen to hardcore when you are angry

and

B) Emo makes you sad/ hardcore makes you angry.

If both of these conditions are met, then I would say that the music has become a significant part of your life, more important than merely a joy, but a significant and unfortuneate mental addiction, one which I've seen all too commonly.

The key isn't just it being part of your life, but being sucked into it until it becomes more than merely a catalyst, but a cause of the things you do.

[Niger Angelus]

Are you studying music in phsyc or something? What is the catalyst to this rant?

To be honest, I'm not 100% sure why. I know I'm intelligent, and I'm also musically gifted, but this whole genre of music is Greek to me. I mean it sounds bad, and I don't usually get along with it's extreme proponents either.

In my experience, our generation is encountering a divide: EDM vs. Non-EDM.

EDM (or Electronic Dance Music) encompases everything from techno to rap, and actually includes most pop music.

Non-EDM is everything else (which can be rock, classical, grunge, emo, hardcore). Personally I enjoy EDM over Non-EDM, but I also enjoy artists that appeal to both groups (Industrial, IDM, and some rock groups like Radiohead who have electronic influences). Don't get me wrong, I also like a fair amount of Non-EDM artists (Bob Marley is a great example), but I see more and more that there are a lot of kids out there who instantly call anything that used a drum machine "trash."

I think it's easy to become sucked into a certain form of music and begin to praise the most extreme ends of it, I see it often. I think the stereotypical (keep in mind I said stereotypical, I don't know how many bands fit the stereotypes) emo and hardcore are trash, just as I think the stereotypical rap music and techno are trash, but there is no shortage of kids criticizing rap music and techno for being shallow when EMO and Hardcore seem to be in some sort of a bubble from what I see.

[the Butcher]

dj, i do believe you'd be surprised by how many hardcore and emo-esque band use things like drum machines and electronic elements. i could name over a dozen right now, but i'm lazy and don't want to post my favorite bands for other people to listen to. pm me sometime and i'll give you the list.

emo and hardcore can be very shallow, i agree. however, on the same token, they can be more artistically advanced than most any forms. only in hardcore would you hear an extremely heavy part that would peel paint off a car, then 3 seconds later a part that is more melodic than basically any other type of music.

in conclusion, go to a fucking show. see it close up. get the experience. then...and only then, will i honestly repect your opinion about "underground" music and will you fully understand the aspects of it which are so often overlooked.

[ March 06, 2005, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: the Butcher ]

Went to a Mars Volta show, hated it.

I mean I've never hated being somewhere more than that moment, but maybe it was an off night for them? Because nobody else in the audience liked it either.

[the Butcher]

going to a concert is nothing like going to a show. and yes, there is a complete difference.

you keep bringing up that mars volta story, but you obviously were surrounded by people who don't appreciate music that is freeform, ingenuitive, genre-expanding...etc.

i just got done making a playlist of songs by "underground" bands that use dominantly electronic equipment...if you're interested, i'll upload them to a server in a zip file and give you the link.