Human Cloning: For or Against? - Nubblies.net Forums

sim_flex_x · 11-12-2003, 03:35 AM

I'm doing a speech on the topic and doing your own poll impresses professors, so, i'm doing a poll

its pretty simple, human cloning is on its way to becoming a reality, are you for it, against it, or undecided, and why (if you'd be so kind as to share).

thanks :]

Orgazmo · 11-12-2003, 03:38 AM

I say do it. Hell yeah.

Combat Chuck · 11-12-2003, 03:43 AM

I say that until they find an actual purpose besides quelling our curiosity for cloning, then go ahead. But as of right now, besides specific organ cloning, there is no reason for cloning a full human being.

I wrote a paper on this very issue along with the good/bad points concerning the human genome project as well. It was one of the best papers/think pieces I wrote this semester.

sim_flex_x · 11-12-2003, 03:56 AM

you wanna share that paper chuck? ;]

Ugly Bastard · 11-12-2003, 04:27 AM

I say hell yeah we do it...sure there will be some things down the road that we'll bump into that will make us regret the day we tried to play God, but until that day comes...fuck it.

The real question is: Would you want to be cloned? I would not.

-Ugly Bastard

Combat Chuck · 11-12-2003, 05:28 AM

Sim, if you want me to post the paper, I would be willing to. But it's a long'un....be warned. However, if I put it out of double space format, it might not be as huge.

StDx · 11-12-2003, 05:36 AM

It would be about half as huge, eh?

Combat Chuck · 11-12-2003, 06:57 AM

Yeah. Very perceptive....

ahead of a backwards game · 11-12-2003, 10:09 AM

im all for human cloning. id love to have a clone to do the things in life i hate the most. i mean come on, who wouldnt?

downwiththeX's · 11-12-2003, 10:47 AM

if we keep meddling with this kind of stuff, we are going to be in trouble. we have no reason to clone humans. if we do, we will go clone crazy, and knowing us dumb americans we would clone so many they would rise against and kill everyone. damn clones.

Fruitacious B · 11-12-2003, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by downwiththeX's:
if we keep meddling with this kind of stuff, we are going to be in trouble. we have no reason to clone humans. if we do, we will go clone crazy, and knowing us dumb americans we would clone so many they would rise against and kill everyone. damn clones.

And then, a bunch of ass raping chimpanzees will rain from the skies and kidnap all of the male anal virgins, because like, they're soooo crazy that after they're done, they'll rise up and kill everyone that the clones haven't gotten to.

Okay, now that I've gotten the retardedness out of my system, I'm all for cloning. Not only that, I wouldn't totally mind having a clone of myself around. I'd get to raise myself the way I should've been raised. I think some of you might of forgot that it still wouldn't be possible to clone you to the age you are now. My clone will be 17 years younger than me. It'd be more like having a kickass younger brother that just happens to look exactly like I did, and share the same basic genetic makeup, and not only that, it'd be amazingly badass.
Edit: Spelling sex.

[ November 12, 2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Fruitacious B ]

sim_flex_x · 11-12-2003, 03:09 PM

anyone mind if i quote them in my speech?
no real names shall be revealed

Orgazmo · 11-12-2003, 03:22 PM

We can't let a few bleeding hearts and moral uncertainties hinder our vast technological conquests.

Why not clone? The clone wouldn't appreciate it? We'll genetically shape the clone to not give a fuck.

What's that? We can't do that with genetics? Probably not, and we'll probably never be able to if we keep putting up road blocks in the path of study.

Not because we can, not because we must, but because it's the next step. Cloning. For tomorrow's sake.

Omzagro · 11-12-2003, 03:28 PM

You morons are so blind.

You think that they honestly haven't already started cloning humans? Right, and the government doesn't have missile destroying laser systems.

If you would just look around you would see human cloning already. You know when you see that guy at college that looks exactly like the guy you knew from high school, but isn't? That's because it is him, but isn't. It's not a coincidence, there are examples of clones everywhere.

*Omzagro points to self*

And the funny thing is... we're taking over.

sim_flex_x · 11-12-2003, 03:50 PM

first of all,Omzagro, you're a dumb ass
now that i have that out of the way...

IF (that's a big if) cloning humans ever becomes legal, they're going to have to study the process for many years before it becomes "open to the public." Even then, (now i could be wrong) but i doubt they're going to let just any random person with a ton of cash walk in and make a clone of themself.
One of the main reasons people want to be cloned is because they are infertile and want to be able to have children. The in vito fertilization process that is currently the most commonly used fertilization method for these couples ranges from about $7,000-10,000 per attempt, and there is only a 29% chance of success. Cloning humans, should this become legal, will most likely be a tad bit more expensive than this, with an even smaller success rate. Right now, cloning mammals is more successful than it used to be, but not by much, and not by enough that it shows we're ready to move onto humans. Dolly, the famous sheep, was the first success after 276 failures. I'm not a math major, but I do believe that's about a .36% chance of success. In more recent years, a kitten named Carbon Copy was cloned, it was the first success after 86 attempts. Success rate: 1.16% those are tiny numbers.

I don't know the genetic make up of sheep or even humans for that matter, but I do know we're different, and most of the sources I found for my speech are concerned about cloning humans because they fear the process will be much more difficult to do.

Point: scientifically, we're no where near ready to successfully clone a human

and i could go on about all the other aspects of the topic, but i need to get back to working on my speech [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ November 12, 2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: sim_flex_x ]

Orgazmo · 11-12-2003, 03:57 PM

Of course we're not ready. I'm not saying that we need to set up a cloning experiment tomorrow, I'm saying that we shouldn't shut the door on the issue...

sim_flex_x · 11-12-2003, 04:01 PM

sometime when i have more time i'll explain the arguments that support the idea that cloning humans anytime in the future is a horrible idea

but i haven't the time now

Orgazmo · 11-12-2003, 04:03 PM

Alright sim, buy yourself more time to try to throw together an argument. I'll be waiting.

sim_flex_x · 11-12-2003, 04:12 PM

i've got a four page argument in the process, but i'm more concerned for my grade than i am about proving you wrong

Pliedes · 11-12-2003, 05:50 PM

Here's the thing. As I stand now, I'm against the concept of human cloning, but it is going to happen other places in the world regardless of if America doesn't touch the issue. So in order to capitalize on the future industry and make it safer and more effective, I think we should go for it.

Why am I against it though?

Cloning makes a mockery of the value of human life. What are we to do with all of the 'mistakes' or 'failures'? Are the clones even people? If so, do they have full rights as a human being? That would invalidate the use of clones for organ farming. Then we're just making people for fun. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions and other uses, I'm just pointing out one.

Here is my personal fear though. I personally believe that what makes everyone a human being is their soul. It gives us our conscience and is part of what really distinguishes us from the animals. Now, right now, in this thread, isn't the time to get in a debate about theism/atheism, mostly because I'm starting a fun thread on that very soon. But I'm just saying, if they can create a human being without a soul; now that is a scary thing.

Again, my apprehensions being said, I still think it is inevitable that human cloning will happen, so we may as well proceed with the highest levels of safety and ethics as possible.

[ November 12, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Pliedes ]

Combat Chuck · 11-12-2003, 08:47 PM

See, here's the thing. If we end up cloning human beings, they will end up looking like us, but they won't BE us. They'll still be human beings, just human beings that have been copied from our specific DNA.

This doesn't mean that the patterns and happenings in their lives will make them turn out exactly like us in any way. They're lives will obviously take their own path, most likely not following in our own footsteps. There are so many outward influences that are responsible for the decisions and happenings in our lives. There's no way that anyone can replicate all of these influences in order to steer our clone in the exact direction that we've already gone.

There's also the fact that clones are still human, which means that they will most likely (i.e. WILL) have souls. There isn't any part of copying DNA that takes our brain/thought process out of the picture.

Taking this into consideration, it means that cloning has the potential to be even more harmful. If clones were just docile servants with inanimate minds, only having the purpose of following what we tell them to do, the situation of cloning would pose a whole different matter.

But creating another human being, whether it be from natural or scientific methods, means you end up with a human being. It's that plain and simple.

This is part of the reason why I don't see a purpose for cloning. You can't say that having a younger copy of you would be extremely advantageous.....it'd be just like having a little brother/sister that looked exactly like you. They can't help you rob banks, they can't show up to school for you, they can't do anything that having an actual copy of you at this very moment would be like.

Cloning could present some advantages. But right now, it just seems that scientific curiosity is the leading purpose for pursuing most of the scientific studies that are taking place in this area.

[ November 12, 2003, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Combat Chuck ]

Trout Sniffer · 11-13-2003, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Would you want to be cloned?

I already have a fucking clone and I sure as hell don't want another. It's too easy for you to get fucked over because of your clone. Fuck human cloning, it's the worst idea i've ever heard.

Pliedes · 11-13-2003, 03:17 PM

Wow, I forgot that Trout is actually a credible source on this topic.

11-12-2003, 03:35 AM	#1 (permalink)
sim_flex_x Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Pete Posts: 690 Internets: 10	I'm doing a speech on the topic and doing your own poll impresses professors, so, i'm doing a poll its pretty simple, human cloning is on its way to becoming a reality, are you for it, against it, or undecided, and why (if you'd be so kind as to share). thanks :]

11-12-2003, 03:38 AM	#2 (permalink)
Orgazmo COME ON YOU YANKS Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 15,697 Internets: 305662	I say do it. Hell yeah.

11-12-2003, 03:43 AM	#3 (permalink)
Combat Chuck Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 2,063 Internets: 10	I say that until they find an actual purpose besides quelling our curiosity for cloning, then go ahead. But as of right now, besides specific organ cloning, there is no reason for cloning a full human being. I wrote a paper on this very issue along with the good/bad points concerning the human genome project as well. It was one of the best papers/think pieces I wrote this semester.

11-12-2003, 03:56 AM	#4 (permalink)
sim_flex_x Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Pete Posts: 690 Internets: 10	you wanna share that paper chuck? ;]

11-12-2003, 04:27 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ugly Bastard Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 13,643 Internets: 247330	I say hell yeah we do it...sure there will be some things down the road that we'll bump into that will make us regret the day we tried to play God, but until that day comes...fuck it. The real question is: Would you want to be cloned? I would not. -Ugly Bastard

11-12-2003, 05:28 AM	#6 (permalink)
Combat Chuck Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 2,063 Internets: 10	Sim, if you want me to post the paper, I would be willing to. But it's a long'un....be warned. However, if I put it out of double space format, it might not be as huge.

11-12-2003, 05:36 AM	#7 (permalink)
StDx Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: right behind you Posts: 931 Internets: 306	It would be about half as huge, eh?

11-12-2003, 06:57 AM	#8 (permalink)
Combat Chuck Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 2,063 Internets: 10	Yeah. Very perceptive....

11-12-2003, 10:09 AM	#9 (permalink)
ahead of a backwards game Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 60 Internets: 10	im all for human cloning. id love to have a clone to do the things in life i hate the most. i mean come on, who wouldnt?

11-12-2003, 10:47 AM	#10 (permalink)
downwiththeX's Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 9 Internets: 10	if we keep meddling with this kind of stuff, we are going to be in trouble. we have no reason to clone humans. if we do, we will go clone crazy, and knowing us dumb americans we would clone so many they would rise against and kill everyone. damn clones.

11-12-2003, 03:09 PM	#12 (permalink)
sim_flex_x Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Pete Posts: 690 Internets: 10	anyone mind if i quote them in my speech? no real names shall be revealed

11-12-2003, 03:22 PM	#13 (permalink)
Orgazmo COME ON YOU YANKS Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 15,697 Internets: 305662	We can't let a few bleeding hearts and moral uncertainties hinder our vast technological conquests. Why not clone? The clone wouldn't appreciate it? We'll genetically shape the clone to not give a fuck. What's that? We can't do that with genetics? Probably not, and we'll probably never be able to if we keep putting up road blocks in the path of study. Not because we can, not because we must, but because it's the next step. Cloning. For tomorrow's sake.

11-12-2003, 03:28 PM	#14 (permalink)
Omzagro Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Anaidni Posts: 4 Internets: 10	You morons are so blind. You think that they honestly haven't already started cloning humans? Right, and the government doesn't have missile destroying laser systems. If you would just look around you would see human cloning already. You know when you see that guy at college that looks exactly like the guy you knew from high school, but isn't? That's because it is him, but isn't. It's not a coincidence, there are examples of clones everywhere. Omzagro points to self And the funny thing is... we're taking over.

11-12-2003, 03:50 PM	#15 (permalink)
sim_flex_x Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Pete Posts: 690 Internets: 10	first of all,Omzagro, you're a dumb ass now that i have that out of the way... IF (that's a big if) cloning humans ever becomes legal, they're going to have to study the process for many years before it becomes "open to the public." Even then, (now i could be wrong) but i doubt they're going to let just any random person with a ton of cash walk in and make a clone of themself. One of the main reasons people want to be cloned is because they are infertile and want to be able to have children. The in vito fertilization process that is currently the most commonly used fertilization method for these couples ranges from about $7,000-10,000 per attempt, and there is only a 29% chance of success. Cloning humans, should this become legal, will most likely be a tad bit more expensive than this, with an even smaller success rate. Right now, cloning mammals is more successful than it used to be, but not by much, and not by enough that it shows we're ready to move onto humans. Dolly, the famous sheep, was the first success after 276 failures. I'm not a math major, but I do believe that's about a .36% chance of success. In more recent years, a kitten named Carbon Copy was cloned, it was the first success after 86 attempts. Success rate: 1.16% those are tiny numbers. I don't know the genetic make up of sheep or even humans for that matter, but I do know we're different, and most of the sources I found for my speech are concerned about cloning humans because they fear the process will be much more difficult to do. Point: scientifically, we're no where near ready to successfully clone a human and i could go on about all the other aspects of the topic, but i need to get back to working on my speech [img]smile.gif[/img] [ November 12, 2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: sim_flex_x ]

11-12-2003, 03:57 PM	#16 (permalink)
Orgazmo COME ON YOU YANKS Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 15,697 Internets: 305662	Of course we're not ready. I'm not saying that we need to set up a cloning experiment tomorrow, I'm saying that we shouldn't shut the door on the issue...

11-12-2003, 04:01 PM	#17 (permalink)
sim_flex_x Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Pete Posts: 690 Internets: 10	sometime when i have more time i'll explain the arguments that support the idea that cloning humans anytime in the future is a horrible idea but i haven't the time now

11-12-2003, 04:03 PM	#18 (permalink)
Orgazmo COME ON YOU YANKS Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 15,697 Internets: 305662	Alright sim, buy yourself more time to try to throw together an argument. I'll be waiting.

11-12-2003, 04:12 PM	#19 (permalink)
sim_flex_x Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Pete Posts: 690 Internets: 10	i've got a four page argument in the process, but i'm more concerned for my grade than i am about proving you wrong

11-12-2003, 05:50 PM	#20 (permalink)
Pliedes Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 4,594 Internets: 1608	Here's the thing. As I stand now, I'm against the concept of human cloning, but it is going to happen other places in the world regardless of if America doesn't touch the issue. So in order to capitalize on the future industry and make it safer and more effective, I think we should go for it. Why am I against it though? Cloning makes a mockery of the value of human life. What are we to do with all of the 'mistakes' or 'failures'? Are the clones even people? If so, do they have full rights as a human being? That would invalidate the use of clones for organ farming. Then we're just making people for fun. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions and other uses, I'm just pointing out one. Here is my personal fear though. I personally believe that what makes everyone a human being is their soul. It gives us our conscience and is part of what really distinguishes us from the animals. Now, right now, in this thread, isn't the time to get in a debate about theism/atheism, mostly because I'm starting a fun thread on that very soon. But I'm just saying, if they can create a human being without a soul; now that is a scary thing. Again, my apprehensions being said, I still think it is inevitable that human cloning will happen, so we may as well proceed with the highest levels of safety and ethics as possible. [ November 12, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Pliedes ]

11-12-2003, 08:47 PM	#21 (permalink)
Combat Chuck Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 2,063 Internets: 10	See, here's the thing. If we end up cloning human beings, they will end up looking like us, but they won't BE us. They'll still be human beings, just human beings that have been copied from our specific DNA. This doesn't mean that the patterns and happenings in their lives will make them turn out exactly like us in any way. They're lives will obviously take their own path, most likely not following in our own footsteps. There are so many outward influences that are responsible for the decisions and happenings in our lives. There's no way that anyone can replicate all of these influences in order to steer our clone in the exact direction that we've already gone. There's also the fact that clones are still human, which means that they will most likely (i.e. WILL) have souls. There isn't any part of copying DNA that takes our brain/thought process out of the picture. Taking this into consideration, it means that cloning has the potential to be even more harmful. If clones were just docile servants with inanimate minds, only having the purpose of following what we tell them to do, the situation of cloning would pose a whole different matter. But creating another human being, whether it be from natural or scientific methods, means you end up with a human being. It's that plain and simple. This is part of the reason why I don't see a purpose for cloning. You can't say that having a younger copy of you would be extremely advantageous.....it'd be just like having a little brother/sister that looked exactly like you. They can't help you rob banks, they can't show up to school for you, they can't do anything that having an actual copy of you at this very moment would be like. Cloning could present some advantages. But right now, it just seems that scientific curiosity is the leading purpose for pursuing most of the scientific studies that are taking place in this area. [ November 12, 2003, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Combat Chuck ]

11-13-2003, 03:17 PM	#23 (permalink)
Pliedes Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 4,594 Internets: 1608	Wow, I forgot that Trout is actually a credible source on this topic.