Religion.

[Mr. Blonde]

I just have to discuss this topic, and I can think of no other place to do so in this damn bible belt except Nubblies.

Religion. How many people ACTUALLY believe in it? I was brought up a Christian my entire life, church, active in youth group, the whole nine yards...and it wasnt until I came to college when I was forced...rather, given the opportunity to open my mind to other possibilities. I mean...when you think about the basic practices and theories that most churches preach....I just don't get it. I can't accept the fact that so many people in the modern world can blindly follow such a ridiculous sentiment as religion.

To me, simply, religion's main service is to provide relief to those who can't handle the hardships of life. Death, misfortune, whatever...excuses are produced such as: "God wanted that person with him in heaven" or "There is a reason for everything that happens." Lets be serious here folks, after all the technological and scientific advancements that have been made in the past century, let alone the entire period of existence, we should know better by now. Shit can happen for no reason. Bad things happen to good people because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Religion almost seems, to me, like a cult. People raising their hands and praising an idol that simply...doesn't exist. Its a waste of time, and similar to a display of a primitive culture that simply does not understand how things work, so they make up things to ease their spirits.

I was almost pissed off at my parents when I first finally came to this epiphany. Almost as if I had been lied to/brainwashed all those years...and especially because I did not have the opportunity to be exposed to any other points of view. Christianity was always just the only "right" religion in my household and area of growing up. The benefit, i suppose, is that it does somewhat strengthen the foundation of a child's morals when growing up, but I also believe that every person (a few exceptions aside) has an innate sense of right and wrong, and can easily be taught how to live a good life without the fallacy of religion.

While we're on the subject of religion, and because I have been focusing my discussion mainly on Christianity, lets discuss the possibilities WHY i chose that topic. Religion in America is, in essence, the epitome of ethnocentrism. It is preached as the ONLY CORRECT religion, and all those other people are all going to hell. With as many other religions as there are in the world (assuming there actually is such a thing as a god), who are we to say that ours is correct? America, thats who. (Cue team america theme song)

So what do I believe? I don't believe the bullshit they teach in church. An example I have brought up on several occasions (and bear with me on this, its just a raw example) is that what if there is somewhat of a nuclear holocaust or natural disaster that basically eliminated 99.9% of the population of teh earth...once we recover, hundreds/thousands of years down the line, and all that was is forgotten, someone discovers a copy of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. With nothing else to work with, and with a charismatic spokesperson or two, this could easily be a new and primary religion, Gandalfism. Now, of course, I know thats now how the creation of the Bible came about, and it's kind of a ridiculous example, but you see my basic point.

This is not to say I don't believe in anything. I would consider myself Agnostic, that is to say; I think there is something out there, though not necessarily a god. If there is a god responsible for us, then I am quite convinced that he started everything out and hasnt been back since, or forgot about us. Also, although I am no X-Files geek, i'm always open to the possibility that we may be the result of an extra-terrestrial effort. Or it may have just been evolution. I just don't know.

In summation, I have made a poll out of my own curiosity, and welcome your arguments, points, disagreements and criticism in this thread.

[ December 08, 2004, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Blonde ]

The more I experience in this world, the more I find myself being pulled to the belief in God. I believe that there is a God, and that all people truely understand the nature of Him, even though they choose to ignore it, or play it off with poorly made arguments. Really argumenst for and against God accomplish very little, so one must go with the overall impression they've experienced. For me, it is that there is a God, and that the order of the world is not some cosmic accident.

Do you think that this is some new phenominon on your part Mr. Blonde? College students have always done this, I bet your parrents doubted God when they were your age, but somehow most return to him in adult life.

Put some value in the beliefs of those who have been here longer than you; they aren't all ignorant. It's a viscious cycle really, as they themselves also rebelled against their parrents.

[Mr. Blonde]

No, i do not believe I am a special case, nor that I am the first one to come up with my arguments, but I seem to be the only to bring up my side of the argument. I meant to address this in my first post, and was thinking about it this morning, so i'm glad you brought it up. Why did my parents return to the church? Goes back to the same thing i mentioned before...strong moral foundation for their child. I think that most parents believe in some sort of god...but I think that church for most of them is mainly for social purposes. It makes them look good in the community if they are a member of a church, which is pretty sad in the fact that in this area you are practically viewed as a satanist if you are not church-related (Middlebury...come on FC).

I suppose I was a little harsh in some of the things I said, and I didnt really mean it the way it came out...mind you, it was conceived randomly at almsot 4:00 AM. I do respect the beliefs of others, or at least pretend to, but all i'm really saying is I don't agree with most of it.

If you don't mind, i'd like to know some of these experiences you speak of that have further persuaded you in the area of religion.

[Saint DH]

I'm not very religious, but I am a christian. I consider myself having loose beliefs, leaning more towards believing most of it. Some things, like Moses parting the Red Sea, certain things about Adam and Eve, I have trouble believing as they are kind of fantastic.

Here's all I have to say about this subject. If I'm walking down a dark alley in New York City, and I see someone else approaching me from the other direction, I am sure as hell hoping they're a christian.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

Is it a coincidence that these negative thoughts have cropped up after a tragic death in the family?

[Mr. Blonde]

I've had all of these thoughts for quite some time, but the death and the behavior surrounding it definitely had something to do with the motivation to make a post and find out other's beliefs. However, thats beside the point, my friend.

[Ugly Bastard]

Blonde, I'm with you about the "college opens your mind thing".

I too was force-fed Christianity for the first 18 years of my life. When I got to college I took a Religious Studies class. I was just put in shock as to how all the other major world religions sound no better or no worse than Christianity. Christians say they're better because they have a "living Savior", which I've never understood how that is such an assumed thing.

Anyway, I'm not saying I do not believe in the Christian cause anymore, I just keep my mind more open and try to seek out the truth instead of blocking things out.

-Ugly Bastard

[Saint DH]

Alright, what I'm about to tell you may come as a shock to many of you...although in reality it shouldn't.

I am God. Worship me.

[the Butcher]

Oh Mr. Blonde. Oh oh oh oh oh. Religion is just such a...stupid concept. No need to bring up any arguments about why. Any logical person knows that believing in something as grand as a "supernatural being" is fucking ludicrous. I could be wrong, but you know what? So could every Christian in the world. That's what makes religion so fucking ridiculous.

I personally am, and I strongly believe that most people are too, is what is known as apatheist. It's a term which combines the words "theist" and "apathy". It's actually quite a beautiful thing. The basic guidelines/beliefs of apatheists are this: there could be something "looking down from above", but there also might not be. Either way though, I DON"T GIVE A FUCK. It's not really a religion, more a way of thought. Personally, I couldn't give two shits if there was a god, because I wouldn't follow him even if it was proved he was real. More people than one might think are actually apatheists.

Think about this: all of those people who go to church, but really don't pay attention or care enough to change who they are...they are apatheists. They believe that there could be something, but it really isn't a big deal to them to try to please that god, being or supernatural entity. I encourage everyone to check out the link that I post. It's all about apatheism, and it may just make you change your views.

Actually, fuck all of you. If you don't look at this link, then you are obviously all just a bunch of religion-loving pieces of shit. That's right. Fuck you.

The Church of "I Don't Give a Fuck"

[Mr. Blonde]

Interesting. Especially this.

Originally posted by the Butcher:

Think about this: all of those people who go to church, but really don't pay attention or care enough to change who they are...they are apatheists. They believe that there could be something, but it really isn't a big deal to them to try to please that god, being or supernatural entity.

Definitely something to think about, folks...how many of you actually change what you do because of the wrath of god?

[Calamity Jane]

just thought i'd share an interesting quote...

"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."
~Albert Camus

[Beebs]

"Unless it is somebody else's God"
~Beebs

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

I think God, Buddha, Allah, etc. are the same dude, and all the rules of the different religions are just mostly manmade. so if you follow your good values relative to wherever you are born in the world or what you believe you get stuck in a purgatory where you learn the TRUTH, whatever that is. until you finally go to the good place. God puts us on this earth, shit happens, and he just sees how we deal with it.

don't worry all you hellions out there, i'm sure theres like heaven vs. hell softball games where you can see the people you once new as well as Master J.

[ December 09, 2004, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: THEINCREDIBLEdork ]

[StabMaster Arson]

Originally posted by Calamity Jane:
just thought i'd share an interesting quote...

"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."
~Albert Camus

Ah, Pascal's wager rears it's ugly head yet again.

Problems with this theory:
-How do you know which God to believe in? There are plenty to choose from, and if you pick the wrong one, you could be in big trouble (e.g. what if you choose Jesus, but get to heaven only to come face-to-trunk with Ganesh?). This is known as the "Avoiding the wrong Hell problem". If a dozen people of different religions came to you with Pascal's Wager, how could you possibly choose between them? After all, many religions are quite specific that they are the One True Religion, and not any others. Jesus Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the light. None shall come to the Father except through me." [emphasis added] and no doubt most other religions make similar claims. If a Christian considers the Wager as strong support for his faith, surely he must accept that it is equally valid for all other religions when presented to himself?

-God is not stupid. Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven? How can you sincerely believe in a God simply out of convenience?

-If there is no God, you have still lost something. You have wasted a good portion of your life performing the various devotional rituals, attending Churches, praying, reading scripture and discussing your deity with His other followers. Not to mention giving your hard-earned money to the church, wasting your intelligence on theological endeavours and boring the hell out of people who really don't want to hear your Good News.

-Can you get away with just sort of generally believing in a Supreme Being, without specifically believing in one particular Deity? Probably not - God will still know what you're up to. Also, many Gods are quite particular about how they should be worshipped. Many born-again Christians will tell you that the only way to Heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour - nothing more and nothing less. General-Deity-Belief and being nice simply won't do. Many people believe that all the different religions are merely alternative routes to the same destination. Nice and tolerant (if a little warm'n'fuzzy) though this may be, there is no valid reason to accept this stance over the fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist position : if the fundies are right, then the un-Saved liberal theists are in just as much trouble as the nonbelievers.

-Few, if any, atheists disbelieve in deities out of choice. It's not as if we know the god is really there, but somehow refuse to believe in it (for example, see if you can choose to truly believe that Australia does not exist). Most atheists disbelieve simply because they know of no compelling evidence to suggest that any sort of god exists. If you want an atheist to believe, show her some good evidence, don't just say it's in her best interests to believe even if there is no god. A person cannot choose to sincerely believe in something, just because it is pragmatic to do so. Sure, you could say all the right prayers and attend church regularly, but that is not the same thing as actually believing, and any God worth his salt would obviously see straight through that.

-It is quite insulting. It amounts to a thinly veiled threat, little better than saying "Believe in my God or He'll send you to Hell" (in fact, this is often the form it is presented in). Also, the theist making this threat assumes that the atheist believes there is a Hell or a God to send her there in the first place. If you don't believe in Hell anyway, it's not a scary thing to be threatened with - a bit like saying "If you don't start believing in unicorns, one will trample you to death while you're sleeping." Who would be worried by that?

-It is often self-refuting, depending on the person's description of God. If you believe that God will forgive anyone for anything, or judge people purely on how they lived their life and not what they believed, or that everyone gets to Heaven regardless (unless maybe they were genocidal cannibal serial killers), then the Wager is meaningless. You might as well say "Believe in God, or you'll... erm... go to Heaven anyway." In such a case, it doesn't make a scrap of difference whether the person believes or not.

[BrassMonkees]

[quote]Originally posted by StabMaster Arson:
[QB]

Originally posted by Calamity Jane:
[qb]just thought i'd share an interesting quote...

"If a Christian considers the Wager as strong support for his faith, surely he must accept that it is equally valid for all other religions when presented to himself? [QB]

Can I tell you that this is NOT a support for Christianity? It's a neat thought, but i think you've done just fine for refuting it. I think the quote Calamity put up is a thought for people who are scared and for ones who are afraid to think about the after-life. It's a scary thought and takes a lot of time to really try and figure out what you believe. I mean, what if you're wrong about it? Assuming you believe in a hell, then nobody wants to be there! It's a safe way out, her quote is.

For Mr. Blonde, I was quite surprised by your closing comment in your first post here. You say that you don't buy into Christianity, fine. But then you went on to saying that you are more open to the idea of Extra-Terrestrials putting us here than you are to the idea that a god did. To me, that is more illogical than anything else. I mean, at least there is scientific proof to support creationism whereas ET putting us here...well that just doesn't make any sense. You can agree with that can't you?

Anyway, most of you are right. Christians are sad and most are pathetic. I won't deny it, can't deny it. You see it just as much as I do and it's unfortunate because what you gather about Chrisitianity you get from these people, you get from your parents.

I'm not closed-minded even though some if not most of you see me as one. Yeah, i'm a Christian, but i'm not a stupid one. The Bible is much more than just a LotR trilogy (which you admitted to being a rather bogus comparison). I can tell you until i'm blue in the face why the Bible speaks Truth, but writing a huge post on it just doesn't serve it's purpose. I'd be more than happy to talk about it in person, even on aim (golf4boy38) but a post...no, it just doesn't work.

I'll just quit by saying, please be open-minded. We say we are, but we aren't. We're open-minded to everything BUT christianity. yeah i'll let other religions tell me what they think, but the moment a Christian starts preaching to me i'll shut him out. He has no business telling me about a God who the only way to Him is through Jesus. Just be a little more open, and be a little more diligent in thinking about your religious beliefs. I can shoot holes in every one of your beliefs just as easily as you think you can shoot holes in mine.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
For Mr. Blonde, I was quite surprised by your closing comment in your first post here. You say that you don't buy into Christianity, fine. But then you went on to saying that you are more open to the idea of Extra-Terrestrials putting us here than you are to the idea that a god did. To me, that is more illogical than anything else.

I was merely stating its one of the many possibilities, back to open mindedness, when I say "extra terrestrials", you need to look past what you see on TV and the Movies...the definition is : ex·tra·ter·res·tri·al

Originating, located, or occurring outside Earth or its atmosphere: intelligent extraterrestrial life.

I'm not saying little grey or green aliens with big black eyes started the human race; for all we know, humans did NOT originate on earth...i'm merely THROWING IT OUT. Don't take me seriously on this one folks.

I mean, at least there is scientific proof to support creationism whereas ET putting us here...well that just doesn't make any sense. You can agree with that can't you?

I'm not saying there isn't, but i'd like to know about some of this.

How is the TV and Movie conception of Extraterrestrials not one of "intelligent extraterrestrial life?"

They all portray them differently, some as having human form, some as being completely different. Some communicate via the 5 known senses, some don't. But how is this being ignorant of all possibilities?

[Schroeder]

Everybody's always so quick to point out all the differences in the world's religions, when they should be looking at why they are all the same.

Regardless, whatever god is up there (and I believe there is one, whether it be Vishnu, Buddha, God, or whatever), I hope he is fair enough hopefully to judge everyone on the merits of his life, and not what religious situation they've been born into.

Christians are always so quick to say there way is the only way, but that's very terrible and intolerant. That's not even what the Bible is all about. There are Buddhists, Muslims, and people of every other religion who live a way more "Christian" life than most of our christians.

So, it's my belief that you can get to that better place by the life you live, whatever walk that is. While I don't really understand how someone can believe there is no sort of god, I can accept that, too. Just be the best person you can, because in the end that's what life is all about anyways.

[ December 12, 2004, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: Schroeder ]

Originally posted by Schroeder:
Just be the best person you can, because in the end that's what life is all about anyways.

Some would say life is all about reproduction. Ones goal should be to spread his genes as much as possible, and the healthiest of those will inhearantly have their genes spread the most.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally posted by DJ FC:
How is the TV and Movie conception of Extraterrestrials not one of "intelligent extraterrestrial life?"

They all portray them differently, some as having human form, some as being completely different. Some communicate via the 5 known senses, some don't. But how is this being ignorant of all possibilities?

You know what I meant, dick.

No I really didn't.

It makes it even more curious that you felt the need to define ET. What exactly are you getting at.

[Mr. Blonde]

TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC: Yes, not only did he know what I meant before he made the first post trying to call me out, we discussed it after. Apparently he just feels like being a tool lately; notice how he's been trying to disprove or make fun of every post I make lately.

Anyways, I defined "extraterrestrial" because most people, when they hear the word, think of little green aliens, and some would believe the idea of those creatures starting the human race is ludicrous. I was merely stating that extraterrestrial does not necessarily mean those type of "aliens", rather, humans could not have originated on this planet, and "aliens" could be just like us, instead of little green men in flying saucers. Can we move from this subject now, seeing as how it really bears no relevance to the topic?

[ December 11, 2004, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Blonde ]

[Schroeder]

Originally posted by DJ FC:
Some would say life is all about reproduction. Ones goal should be to spread his genes as much as possible, and the healthiest of those will inhearantly have their genes spread the most.

Well, they would be wrong. An animal's main goal of their life is to reproduce. Humans are gifted above animals to the point to search for something better in life. That's part of what makes us different.

[George Sherman]

that makes us different from most animals, but that doesn't mean we are not animals, we are. We are just the most advance, however i wouldn't say the most intelligent. Humans are like a disease.

[the Butcher]

Originally posted by Schroeder:
Christians are always so quick to say there way is the only way, but how terrible and intolerant is that?

Extremely fucking intolerant, but that's what Christianity is about. Don't even begin to tell me it's not. I don't give a fuck what you believe, but the bible clearly states that the only way to go to heaven is through the belief in the christian god and the christian way. I'd back it up with quotes, but I'm pretty sure I used my bible papers to start sacrificial fires to worship myself.

Originally posted by Schroeder:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ FC:
Some would say life is all about reproduction. Ones goal should be to spread his genes as much as possible, and the healthiest of those will inhearantly have their genes spread the most.

Well, they would be wrong.</font>[/quote]Who the fuck are you to tell him that he's wrong? You can't fucking prove that he's wrong or that you're right. That's what makes religion as a whole total bullshit. You can't prove with conclusive evidence that any religion is right, therefore they are all just faith in something that isn't real.