Nubblies.net Forums - Wtf Did You Google To End Up Here?  

Go Back   Nubblies.net Forums - Wtf Did You Google To End Up Here? > Normal Stuff > News

Notices

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-11-2003, 08:38 PM   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Ugly Bastard's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 13,643
Internets: 247330
Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute

Post

Governor George Ryan from Illinois pulled an unprecidented move today in pardoning all 167 of Illinois' death row inmates.

He did not pardon them from prison, but he did pardon them from their sentence of death, and reduced that sentence to a "life in prison" sentence.

I put 'reduced' in italics, because I feel that life in prison is more of a penalty than death is.

For the most part, I am an extreme Republican, however, I side with the Democrats on one thing.....The Death Penalty.

I think it's wrong of the government to think that they have the power to take a man's life because he/she "did something wrong".

I am proud of the decision that Gov. Ryan made, and hope to see more Governors follow Ryan's leadership.

Your thoughts on this decision, or the death penalty in general??

-Ugly Bastard
Ugly Bastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2003, 09:15 PM   #2 (permalink)
Orgazmo
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

I wrote a report about the dp last year. I'm all for it. I don't really have time to get into reasons and shit right now, but I'm all for a debate

I now hate Illinois's governor, too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 01:05 AM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,063
Internets: 10
Combat Chuck is on a distinguished road
Post

Yeah, this doesn't put him on my "guys who are the shit" list....he now goes on my "guys who are shit" list.

I think that the death penalty is a much needed tool in our penal system, and I'd be all for a debate here....
Combat Chuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 02:56 AM   #4 (permalink)
pliedes
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

Contrary to how many see it, the death penalty is not 'sinking to their level', it is social justice.

More later...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 03:07 AM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Ugly Bastard's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 13,643
Internets: 247330
Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute

Post

I can see I'm quickly outnumbered 3-1 on this issue (where's that damn Democrat tonguegina when I need him? ), so I will just say this, and then concede my case.

If any of you can read the book "The Chamber" by John Grisham, and still come in here and say that you are anti-death penalty; it will blow my mind.

Read that book.

-Ugly Bastard
Ugly Bastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 03:14 AM   #6 (permalink)
pliedes
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

That book will go on my list, but my list is long enough to keep my busy for the next three years. So, please paraphrase for me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 03:17 AM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Ugly Bastard's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 13,643
Internets: 247330
Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute

Post

I couldn't come close to paraphrasing that book. I'm not worthy enough.

Just read it....even if it is three years from now, at least you will have read it.

-Ugly Bastard
Ugly Bastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 03:27 AM   #8 (permalink)
pliedes
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

I will, I will. But thats not helping the conversation at hand. If that book is one of your big points, then it's prudent that you at least explain why.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 03:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Ugly Bastard's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 13,643
Internets: 247330
Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute

Post

Because it convinces any reader that the Death Penalty is wrong.

I don't want to say how it does this....because I possibly couldn't be as emotionally moving as Grisham is.

-Ugly Bastard
Ugly Bastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 03:47 AM   #10 (permalink)
pliedes
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

Aaah. So it is emotionally convincing, not intellectually and logically. Thank god we don't base laws on emotion.

I'm betting it won't convince me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 03:54 AM   #11 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Ugly Bastard's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 13,643
Internets: 247330
Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute

Post

I'm betting he'll convince your ass faster than you can purchase the book God damnit!

On a more serious note, he does use plenty of logic and reason in his case. It is just the only book that ever made me cry....so it's pretty emotional too.

-Ugly Bastard
Ugly Bastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 07:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Straight Outta Compton
Posts: 1,003
Internets: 123
Trout Sniffer will become famous soon enough Trout Sniffer will become famous soon enough

Post

I'm all for the death penalty. Somebody has to do something pretty damn bad for them to get sentenced to death. If you kill somebody, I believe a reasonable punishment is for you to be killed.

I do think that like in prison would be worse, but many inmates say they would much rather be in prison than die. If you're in prison, I don't see how you have a point to life, but I suppose that's just my opinion.
Trout Sniffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 08:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
Orgazmo
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

First of all, chances are if you're the type of guy that murders, going to prison is like being thrown in with a group of friends with a nice bed, meals, air conditioning, cable TV, a workout facility, library, and a fuckload of other stuff that you maybe didn't even have before you went to prison. Along with that, even if someone is sentenced to "life" in prison...this sentence is never really solidified. There have been many cases where serial killers have been sentenced to life in prison, and then a new law is passed that gives them eligibility for parole. One case (don't remember exact details), a little girl was killed by some pedophile. Her parents had the choice of whether he would be sentenced to death or life in prison. Because they didn't fully agree with the death penalty, they chose life in prison. A few years later, a new law was passed that applied to this guy somehow, making him eligible for parole just 2 years later...meaning that he could potentially be a free man in like 5 yrs for killing a little girl.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 08:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Straight Outta Compton
Posts: 1,003
Internets: 123
Trout Sniffer will become famous soon enough Trout Sniffer will become famous soon enough

Post

Wow, that would really suck Orgazmo. I supposed I didn't look at it that way.

The prisons these days aren't too bad. Free food, cable tv, a place to sleep. It's better than a lot of people are living right now. But still, we're talking about spending your entire life in here, knowing for the most part that you will never be able to advance yourself in any way. Who would want that? Definitely not me.
Trout Sniffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 08:30 PM   #15 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Ugly Bastard's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 13,643
Internets: 247330
Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute Ugly Bastard has a reputation beyond repute

Post

Orgazmo- That is not the killers problem. Blame that problem on our Justice System. The same Justice System that thinks the Death Penalty is a good thing.

There are just too many wild-card facts with the death penalty. There are too many reasons why it is wrong, and not very many reasons why it is right.

Most of the families of the victims of murder, really want their loved one's killer to be executed so it can bring them "closure"; but studies show that when their killer is executed, it does nothing but bring the families more grief and anxiety.

Here is a small story that you might find appealing:
A member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in
America (ELCA) whose sister was brutally murdered, and who later witnessed
the execution of her murderer, told a story of forgiveness to a national
symposium on criminal justice here Jan. 22-24.
Ron Carlson's sister, Deborah, was one of two people brutally
murdered by Karla Faye Tucker and an accomplice. Tucker became a
nationally prominent death row inmate before her execution Feb. 3, 1998,
in Texas.
"I stood over Karla Fay Tucker's casket just as I stood over my
sister's," said Carlson, a member of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church,
Houston. "I felt the reality of death and said to myself, 'This can't be
right.'"
In an unrelated incident, Carlson's natural father was murdered
about a year later.
Carlson was the keynote speaker at the Bob Domer Memorial Symposium
on Criminal Justice. The conference was sponsored by the Social
Ministries for Congregations program of the ELCA Division for
Congregational Ministries. The ELCA Division for Church in Society and
the regional ELCA Working Group on Criminal Justice also sponsored the
symposium.
Despite an initial desire for retribution, Carlson said he began
reading a Bible which belonged to his father.
"I asked God to take the pain away and to replace it with love
joined by passion so that I could forgive the people who destroyed my
family," he told the audience, with a slight tremor in his voice.
In 1991 he confronted Tucker, who had already been sentenced to
death, offering her his forgiveness. Between that first meeting and
Tucker's execution, Carlson said he developed a relationship with his
sister's killer and a steadfast belief that the death penalty doesn't
solve any problems.
"It sure didn't bring my sister back that night they killed Karla,"
he said.
About 100 people from the ELCA and other denominations active in
criminal justice ministry registered for the conference. It focused on
congregation-based criminal justice ministry, said Loretta Horton, ELCA
director for Social Ministries for Congregations.
In addition to a series of plenary sessions featuring speakers such
as Dr. Henry G. Covert, United Church of Christ minister and author of
"Ministry to the Incarcerated," participants chose from workshops dealing
with volunteer recruitment and nurture, human rights and the criminal
justice system, meeting the needs of women in transition and abolishing
capital punishment.
The Rev. Orville Nyblade, retired ELCA pastor, attended the
symposium on behalf of his congregation, Christ Lutheran Church,
Gettysburg, Pa.
Actively involved with the congregation's social ministry committee,
Nyblade said he expected to learn some pointers for the congregation's
work at the county prison through the Pennsylvania Prison Society.
T. Milton Nelson, a member of New Hope Lutheran Church, Columbia,
Md., attended as a result of his five-year stint as a Bible study leader
at the Maryland Correctional Institution for Women.
He said his enthusiasm for prison ministry comes from his
observation that "the women were so eager and their participation was so
active."
Waetina Coles, a member of All Saints Lutheran Church, Baltimore,
and Peg Sheeler, Holy Spirit Lutheran Church, Eldersburg, Md., attended in
conjunction with their volunteer work for the ELCA Delaware-Maryland
Synod.
"We'll serve as resource people for synod congregations looking for
models for prison ministry," Coles said.
The conference included a special tribute to Robert Domer, former
chairperson of the Interreligious Taskforce on Criminal Justice and member
of the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. A member of the
ELCA, Domer served on the task force that helped develop the social
statement opposing the death penalty which the church adopted in 1991.
Domer was wrongly accused and convicted of murder in 1963 and
appealed the death penalty portion of his sentence. A second trial
resulted in dismissal of all charges. Until his death in January 1998,
Domer dedicated his life to abolishing the death penalty.


Here are some disturbing facts about the death penalty:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> 102 innocent men have been sentenced to death in the last 20 years.

<LI> To try a capital case costs $2.8 million, over twice the cost of life in prison.

<LI> The U.S. is one of only 6 countries in the world to sentence children to death.
[/list]
You don't have to agree with me, because this is all just a matter of opinion.

I just want to point out that it is rather hypocritical of the government to murder someone, because they murdered someone else. I don't think the government should be powerful enough to decide who lives, and who dies; taking the life away from a human being is not something that a government should be able to do.

I am all about seeing everyone of these men that are on Death Row to have their sentence lessened to life in prison; but make that life in prison hell:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> No Television EVER
<LI> No guards in the showers
<LI> No access to books, magazines, newspapers, or any other type of media publication
<LI> Nothing but 40 hours per week of tough hard labor with extreme physical punishments accompianated
<LI> No visits from people on the outside, EVER
<LI> No choice on what they will be eating. They get three course meals per day, and they take what is served that day
<LI> No mattress in their room. Just the concrete floor
<LI> No work out facility
<LI> No "outside time" unless it is while doing manual labor (in other words, they never leave their cells unless they are in a chain gang and pouring concrete or something)[/list]Now, I think that most prisoners would rather be put to death, than have to suffer though a lifetime without a possibility of parole of this shit.

But at least the government won't be stooping to their level by simply killing them, and putting them out of their misery.

-Ugly Bastard


[This message has been edited by Ugly Bastard (edited January 12, 2003).]
Ugly Bastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 10:18 PM   #16 (permalink)
50 Cent
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

I really think that if someone kills another person, thats their way of "forfeiting" their life, and they should be killed.

Capital punishment kicks ass.

[This message has been edited by 50 Cent (edited January 12, 2003).]
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2003, 11:29 PM   #17 (permalink)
Orgazmo
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

The death penalty is a hell of a deterrent. What would you rather have: A few murderers living behind bars or hundreds of innocents going about their lives on the streets with their families? Personally, I'd go with the ladder. In '95, after the death penalty was reinstated in New York, the murder rate dropped 33%. In Texas, after reviving the death penalty, the murder rate was cut in half (from 18 per 100,000 to 9 per 100,000). In Houston alone, over 450 murders per year were deterred via the death penalty. And in California, in the years from 1993 - 1996, only 4 murderers were put to death, yet this small number was big enough to send a message that dropped the number of average yearly murders by 1,597 people (even though the population was still increasing). Also, in a survey of inmates who committed a crime without a deadly weapon, 83.4% of them cited the death penalty as a reason for leaving the weapon behind.

You say that it doesn't make sense that our government murders murderers. That's a fair outlook, but you need to realize that they aren't murdered because that's the crime they committed. Just as rapists aren't raped and thieves aren't stolen from for punishment, murderers aren't simply given a taste of their own medicine. Instead, a select few murderers are sentenced to death because it is the single worst punishment that could be dealt. There are crimes to heinous that a lifetime in an air conditioned cell does not cover. It's for these cases that the worst is necessary. It is sheer coincidence that the worst punishment parallels the worst crime.

About suggesting that life w/out parole should take the dp's place...that's no good. First of all, like I already stated, laws are constantly changing. Parole is never impossible...and if they are parolled, a proven stat is that 2 of every 41 paroled murderers return to prison for killing again. Secondly, believe it or not, prisoners do escape. What do you think a guy who already has life in prison is going to do after he escapes? I have a few guesses...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To try a capital case costs $2.8 million, over twice the cost of life in prison.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My sources disagree... According to this website:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the average prisoner sentenced to life spends about 50 years in prison, the complete cost of supporting such a person is approximately $5.53 million. On the other hand, the cost of an equivalent court case and execution of a prisoner sentenced to death is only $1.91 million, almost one-third the price.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>102 innocent men have been sentenced to death in the last 20 years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And of those 102 men, NONE were killed by the government. In fact, only one research case even claims that innocent people have been put to death, the Bedau-Radelet research...although Bedau, half of the researching duo, is quoted as saying that it's ludicrous to say that innocent people have been killed as no evidence supports such a claim.

Another fact you may throw out there is that 37% of death row inmates are released from death row...but this simply proves further that innocents are not killed by the death penalty. The fact that 2 are released for every 5 that are killed shows the generosity of the penal system. It allows an ample amount of time for all evidence to be scrutinized over and for all arguments to be made in an accused's case. Even with this, most of the 37% released from death row don't go back to the public, they simply have their sentences reduced because of law changes (and dumb motherfuckers like Illinois's governor).

And I'll leave you with a final story:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On June 3, 1973, Henry Brisbon Jr., one of the most brutal murderers of all-time, joined forces with three accomplices and forced a car off of Interstate-57 in Cook County. As his three friends looked on, Brisbon Jr. forced the woman that occupied the car out onto the ground. At gunpoint, he ordered her to remove her clothing and climb through a barbed wire fence. After this, he inserted his shotgun between her legs and fired a single shot. As she screamed out in pain, Brisbon Jr. took several minutes to savor the atmosphere before finally pressing the shotgun to her throat and ending her misery. An hour later, the four men forced another car off of the road and, once again, Brisbon Jr. emerged with a shotgun and ordered the couple out of their car. The couple pleaded for their lives, speaking of their plans to get married in six months, but Brisbon Jr. was unaffected. He instructed them to kiss for the final time before fatally shooting them both in the back of the head. He was convicted of his crimes and sentenced to 1,000 to 3,000 years in prison. It didn’t take him long to quench his thirst for blood within the confines of his new home. He sharpened the end of a wooden spoon and took a fellow inmate’s life with it, an act that finally delivered to him the consequence that he had deserved from his first crime, the death penalty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2003, 04:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,698
Internets: 10
Titan is on a distinguished road

Post

As far as pliedes and his obsession with the fact that everything can be dissected or convoluted with logic, here's a bit of logic:
The death penalty - doing something that society says is morally wrong in order to punish someone for doing something that society says is morally wrong.
How logical and intelligent.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orgazmo:
Instead, a select few murderers are sentenced to death because it is the single worst punishment that could be dealt. There are crimes to heinous that a lifetime in an air conditioned cell does not cover. It's for these cases that the worst is necessary. It is sheer coincidence that the worst punishment parallels the worst crime.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm definitely going to disagree with that one. You guys remember that quiz website that told you what kind of torture device you were? Yeah, some of those were downright bad. I would definitely prefer death over them.

Having said that, if the prisoners are sentenced to death because it is the "worst possible punishment". Then you would realize that being tortured is worse, and you would torture torturers, which is even less humane, or Christian if you will, than murdering murderers.

Think about it, how could the government have the right to kill people? The killers are being killed because THEY DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL PEOPLE.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It didn’t take him long to quench his thirst for blood within the confines of his new home. He sharpened the end of a wooden spoon and took a fellow inmate’s life with it, an act that finally delivered to him the consequence that he had deserved from his first crime, the death penalty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hypothetical situation: If the man this guy killed happened to be in jail for murder as well, then the inmate-killer shouldn't be sentenced to death for killing a killer, 'cuz that's what the government was going to do anyway.

That's pure analytical logic, but that's not what would happen, is it?




[This message has been edited by Titan (edited January 13, 2003).]
Titan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2003, 07:10 PM   #19 (permalink)
Orgazmo
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The killers are being killed because THEY DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL PEOPLE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right...but the government does have the right. Whether it's a morally right is something that we'll probably never agree on...but just to clarify. While you personally may not perceive death as the worst thing to happen, it is the taking of the most precious thing that a person ever has...life. I believe that lives are precious...so precious that taking a few (from those that have no regard for it) to save a thousand (of those who simply want to be without impeding the living of others around them) is logical.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>then the inmate-killer shouldn't be sentenced to death for killing a killer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, just to clarify, not every serial killer is sentenced to death. In fact, most aren't, as the penalty is reserved for the most heinous of crimes...but your hypothetical situation can still apply. If the man would have spooned to death another who was on death row, he would most certainly have been punished...even according to my logic. Saying that the government is going to do it eventually anyway is jumping from point A to point Z while ignoring B through Y. Firstly, just because a person is on death row does not necessarily mean that he's going to be killed. As I said in my last post, for every 5 killed, 2 are released...by killing the man who is scheduled to be killed himself, the killer is taking away the other's right to have a chance for all evidence to be scrutinized over, which all death row inmates are entitled to.

Along with that, a murderer has no right to kill anyone else...whether they will die later or not. I realize that your entire case rests upon the basis that no one has the right to kill anyone else...and I'll agree with that to an extent. I guess this is what I'm saying, no one really has the strict right to kill another person...but certain people have earned the right to die and, in order for that right to be fully enforced, someone must kill. It's not because they have the right...it's because it's necessary for the punishment to be dealt.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2003, 08:09 PM   #20 (permalink)
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,698
Internets: 10
Titan is on a distinguished road

Post

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orgazmo:
I guess this is what I'm saying, no one really has the strict right to kill another person...but certain people have earned the right to die...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well stated, whether it be true or not.

i understand the legistics on how the inmate obviously shouldn't not be convicted for killing a killer, i was just using the process of pure analytical logic, (if a then b blah blah blah) to prove my point. on a purely moral based agenda, it makes no sense. but frankly scarlet, i don't give a damn, universewide morals aren't something i believe in anyway.

coming closest to agreeing with pliedes's 'absolutes' that i probably ever will, i'd say that true morals, which would be reached by unattainably being one's trueself are more appropriate, but they sure as hell aren't in a political field. unfortunately there can't be an intelligent and fair set of morals for all of mankind to follow. not to mention bill clinton.

Titan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2003, 10:05 PM   #21 (permalink)
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 148
Internets: 10
Jake is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to Jake
Post

Just some questions? Oragazmo: Who gets the right to decide who has earned the right to live or die, and why? Arent all humans prone to error? And why should a select few have the right to decide who lives or dies based on their beliefs of what constitutes what is worthy of death?
Second, if the death penalty is used mainly as a deterant, then why does the U.S. only go to the extent it does... why not go the logical step and impose the death penalty on an assortment of crimes? Im sure the overall crime rate would surely plummit, As it has in communist states and dictatorships. The point is that we are a supposed to be a civilized and developed country. We should be able to realize that WE all make mistakes. I personally would not like to be the person flipping the switch on someone, and killing a possibly innocent person. Second our nation shouldnt have to stoop to the level of dictatorships and communists and use fear to keep order. I hate that we are more like 3rd world countries on this issue and less like 1st world countries.
In closing, if you believe in a divine being (God) whatever it may be, and you have enough faith to gamble your own life with them. Then why dont you also have the faith to believe that your god will also punish the criminal and administer the ultimate social justice?
Just some thoughts and question. ps. only the first questions were directed at specifically orgazmo, i dont claim to know all the answers and just wanted some worthwhile provoking thoughts.
Jake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2003, 10:07 PM   #22 (permalink)
50 Cent
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

I think homosexuals should be put to death.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We should be able to realize that WE all make mistakes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh yes we do, like sometimes I just accidently kill 6 people, accidently. Dipshit.

[This message has been edited by 50 Cent (edited January 13, 2003).]
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2003, 10:10 PM   #23 (permalink)
pliedes
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

This is just a few thoughts off the top ofmy head, so bear with me...

Titan - well said. Absolutes are very real, but on many planes unapplicable, regardless they still exist, they'll come back to haunt you...

refucks who keep bring up 'you're doing the same thing that you said was wrong' - no, murdering someone is wrong. a death sentence is a straighforward form of social justice.
murder - the unlawful killing of one human being by another, especially with malice aforethough (malice aforethough - *planned or intended* of the desire to harm others or see others suffer)
execution - a putting to death as a legal penelty
two very DIFFERENT things, stop using the two interchangably
and i'll just throw this one out there..
justice - 1. Moral rightness, 2. Honor;fairness 3. Good reasons 4. Fair handling due treatment 5. The administration and procedure of law

thinking we shouldn't have the death penalty because innocent people are irrevesibly punished - is it possible? yes. Though no reliable source cites this as happening in larger than usual numbers. We have put countless people in jail for many years, so should we not put people in jail? We just need to make sure our judical system is effective. This arguement is a criticism of the judicial system, of which i also think should be reformed.

everyone who is bitching about the prices of everything - i don't care what you say, things need to be reformed. Way to much money is spend ineffectively. When you strip it down to the basics, what costs more money, to feed and shelter a person until they naturally die? Or go buy a rope at Walmart, and use that same damn rope to string up all the people deserving? Exactly my point. Regardless of whichever way you go, reforms need to be made, lets leave it at that.

life sentence is worse - making prison sentences a living hell is great and all, but it is no where near the deterrent that death is... but he death penalty must be enforced effectively and swiftly. Obviously reforms must be made, but consider this...
In countries like Saudi Arabia, which enforce a swift and certain death penalty, violent crime is rare. Singapore and Los Angeles have equivalent populations, yet in one year Singapore had 58 murders (most followed by swift execution) while Los Angeles had 1,063. Criminal sub-cultures like the Mafia show that the death penalty is a powerful deterrent even among career criminals, since few will ever double-cross their superiors, fearing the repercussions.
...It's not a deterant my ass.
When a murderer is executed, three appeals and 12 years after his crime, society has largely forgotten about him. His death has almost no deterrent effect on crime. Further, a life sentence cannot be executed speedily. The swift death penalty deters crime and aids evangelism. Thus Christians, in obedience to God, should support the death penalty.

I'm still kinda waiting for some poor sap to say 'the bible is against it' or something dumb like that...
Anyways, thats just my thoughts on other peoples comments...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2003, 10:13 PM   #24 (permalink)
pliedes
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Post

Pretty good post jake, but you opened up what i feared: this will quickly turn into a pilosophical conversation, with my mostly having to get into the whole conversation on 'absolutes' then eventually reverting to looking at all christian teaching on the death penalty...
Not that i don't want to, but this thread is going to get very big...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2003, 10:15 PM   #25 (permalink)
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 148
Internets: 10
Jake is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to Jake
Post

Good thoughts overall, I think a case can be made for both side, but i basically think it comes down to a persons morals... Personally im to weak to kill another and i dont like to see others killed, but i can see some of the other sides poits..
Jake is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright © 2002-∞ - Nubblies.net