Socialism!

[DJ FC]

US Gov invests in formerly private banks, some of these investments will be quite large. This is the begining of the end. The government is going to have ownership of banks for a long, long time...

[hfam95]

And that makes you the worst prez since Andrew Johnson.

Walt's top 5 of worst prez of all time.

5. Jimmy Carter
4. Warren Harding
3. George W. Bush
2. Andrew Johnson
1. William Henry Harrison

At least Harding had the good sense to die after teapot dome.

[Ugly Bastard]

Well whether or not the U.S. is socialist depends more on tax policy than government ownership. Like, the government could own a decent percentage of these banks, but as long as they're not hiking taxes through the roof to fund it (cough... I'm looking at you, Obama)... it's not like inherently leading us to being a socialist state.

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

Well whether or not the U.S. is socialist depends more on tax policy than government ownership. Like, the government could own a decent percentage of these banks, but as long as they're not hiking taxes through the roof to fund it (cough... I'm looking at you, Obama)... it's not like inherently leading us to being a socialist state.

In the extreme Communist state, there would be no taxes as the gov't would own all the businesses... so yes gov't ownership of businesses is closer to socialism and communism than 100% private ownership of businesses.

[Niger Angelus]

So.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally Posted by Niger Angelus

So.

So... socialism is inefficient and doesn't optimize the value of members in a society as much as capitalism.

[f3lix]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

So... socialism is inefficient and doesn't optimize the value of members in a society as much as capitalism.

Which has been proven time and time again in world history, but for some reason there are people in EVERY generation who think they know better and that they'll get it to work THIS time.

[Niger Angelus]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

So... socialism is inefficient and doesn't optimize the value of members in a society as much as capitalism.

Neither does modern day slavery, oh I mean, getting paid seven dollars an hour to work your ass off for fifty hours while superiors who do next to nothing live well beyond the means of comfort.

[Ugly Bastard]

Well you're worth less to society than they are. There's no value in being a whiner.

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by Niger Angelus

Neither does modern day slavery, oh I mean, getting paid seven dollars an hour to work your ass off for fifty hours while superiors who do next to nothing live well beyond the means of comfort.

This is what I was talking to Repug about: You may be "working your ass off." But you aren't working your ass off at getting better at your job, better at getting a better job, or better at knowing about better jobs. You can "work" your entire life without improving yourself even the least bit. Also we need incentives to bring more value to society.

[Ugly Bastard]

Also Niger, how can you expect ever to get anywhere in life without a cute avatar? Huh?

[Repugnant Abomination]

Originally Posted by George W. Bush

This is what I was talking to Repug about: You may be "working your ass off." But you aren't working your ass off at getting better at your job, better at getting a better job, or better at knowing about better jobs. You can "work" your entire life without improving yourself even the least bit. Also we need incentives to bring more value to society.

This is a good point, and I agree with it, but still, I think you're operating under the assumption that everyone starts out on equal ground. The system is inherently tilted in some people's favor based on race, gender, history, etc... Now, I'm not advocating socialism. Clearly I don't think that's the way to go, since I am a libertarian, but even so, the compassionate side of me has a difficult time with our system sometimes. Some people aren't educated enough to work "smart", because they aren't smart enough. It's easy for us, a bunch of middle class to upper middle class white kids, to preach this kind of stuff, but do you honestly think if you were a Mexican living in the inner city you'd have as much of a chance? This whole romanticized idea about the American dream is a lie, or at the very least it's much more unattainable now than it was 30 years ago.

It's like George Carlin said, they call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it.

[Ugly Bastard]

There should be some kind of a giant equalizer so you don't have to feel guilty, Repug.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Quiet, rich boy.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

This whole romanticized idea about the American dream is a lie, or at the very least it's much more unattainable now than it was 30 years ago.

Are you kidding me? in the last 30 years there have been ginormous strides for niggers, women, and poor people.

[SittinOnDubsWGW]

If you "work your ass off" at $7 an hour your entire life, you're an idiot. Agree completely with GWBs statement above about work and actually working to better yourself.

Its easy to get complacent, and for a lot of people, that $7/hr is better than where they were before, but they don't want to do any more legwork to get a better job/education/etc, so therefore they get stuck where they are at.

I understand this completely as I still need to finish my MPA, but find it hard to go back to finish since I'm actually content at my job for the moment. I know that I eventually want to move on, and finishing my Masters will help tremendously in getting where I want to be at a different position which will net ~$30K year more.


ID above is right as well. Of course none of us start out on a level playing field, oh well, boo hoo. Its life deal with it, just do whatever you can to get as far as you possibly can and you should be just fine.

[Niger Angelus]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

Well you're worth less to society than they are. There's no value in being a whiner.

What makes their position so worthy? When any one person within the same company, within the same department could easily with minimal training take over the position.

Besides, when have you ever worked a real day in your life?


Thought so.

[Niger Angelus]

I think you need to step back and really look at Repug said, because I know for a fact many of you were handed much of what you have. Do you honestly think the lower class wants to stay where its at? Honestly think about what it is that you're un-informed mouths are spewing. Just look at the structure in Warsaw, how are you going to get yourself a good job? Hard work? No. Connections with people who have the authority. Its became the present structure of America.

[SittinOnDubsWGW]

never lived in warsaw, but did live in Muncie. What did I do? I got the fuck out of Indiana.

Its not that hard kids.

[f3lix]

I have always believed that my money should work for me, and not that I should work for my money. I have witnessed blue collar people saying that you need to work hard to have a good living and they truly believe that you need to work for your money. I think they are stupid and don't know any better. That's me.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by SittinOnDubsWGW

never lived in warsaw, but did live in Muncie. What did I do? I got the fuck out of Indiana.

Its not that hard kids.

Agreed. If you aren't successful where you are and you honestly believe its because of your location, then move. Otherwise you really have no valid point. Not picking on you Niger, this goes for everybody. SittinonDubs is right; people get complacent too easily. Personally I think relationships are a big cause of this, but also "good" jobs early on, that people think is such a great deal that they stay with the company for the next ten years until they're fucked and have no other industry to move to. I"ll forgo making shitloads of money for my age now for flexibility and job happiness, and subsequently much larger wages later on in life.



Moral of the story: Fuck Indiana.

[Niger Angelus]

I totally agree with you two. I fucked up and I'm still paying for it, there are withstanding unknowns also. But in the whole you're correct in my opinion.

[Repugnant Abomination]

I don't mean to paint some bleak outlook on things. I do think that people, properly educated and motivated, can achieve a comfortable life in this country. But things aren't "fair", and we're all proof of it. Obviously there are different tiers of privilege, but in the grand scheme of things, we're pretty high up on the ladder.

[Heaven Can Wait]

some folks are born, silver spoon in hand.

[Ugly Bastard]

I wasn't. I was brought home to a trailer.

I have friends whose parents have fantastic incomes. These people had every opportunity laid out on a staircase in front of them, but they made choices that have resulted in a more difficult, less desirable life. You can have anything you want in this world... but here's a tip: people don't pay much for tickets to the whine show.

My friend Justin was born, according to what you guys would probably say, from a significantly "unfair" standpoint: he's black. Yet in all of the times I've hung out with him, I have never once heard him say anything slightly negative about what it's like to be black. He has never once taken a victim attitude and spoken of how life isn't "fair". He knows that such things won't get him anywhere in life... but hard work will. And work hard, he does. He's an actor, model, dating coach, and poker player. He makes a lot of money because he works his ass off to stay in top shape, improve his value as a person, and give others what they want. He pulls in $500/hour for doing photo shoots for JcPenney catalogs, and takes in $2,000-$15,000 for appearances in movies and TV commercials. Another way he's made money was when I hired him for $700 and bought his plane ticket to Houston a few weekends ago to help me revamp my wardrobe. Not bad for two days worth of "work" that chiefly involved hanging out in a mall with a friend. And one of the ways I've been able to afford to do that was by working hard to get good at poker and having the willingness to risk money gambling against others. Last night, I was on ESPN briefly from footage taped during this summer's World Series of Poker. And because at that time I agreed to a sponsorship deal with an online poker room, they're giving me $10,000 just for making it on TV while wearing their hat! (I owe our very own f3lix $2,000 of this because he was savvy enough to strike a deal involving a swap of 20% of each other's sponsorship equity in the tournament).

I know it's easy to fall into the trap of whining about how life isn't fair. But while you're doing that, keep in mind there are people who are ascending from a less-than-advantageous starting point in life (like myself... and to a much greater extent, Justin) to chase and hopefully realize all of our wildest dreams and aspirations. One of my wildest dreams and aspirations to help people reach theirs. In fact, I'd say that is the dream of my life. Nothing I can think of brings me more happiness than the thought of starting a company through which I can give my friends and family members opportunities to share their gifts with the world. I think I can be a great motivator and a giver of opportunity to a lot of people. One of the areas in which I need to improve in order to realize this dream is to avoid the trap of being judgmental and condescending. I get discouraged and frustrated too easily. This is something I'm sure most of you on here have noticed me do... but I know I'm better than that! It will be hard, but I hope my development as an individual involves maintaining awareness of the bigger picture and not getting caught up in small-minded negativity. This change in the way in which I treat others is something that means a lot to me, and I'm focusing on making it happen.

Me



Justin