Another Religious Thread - Athism As Irrational As Christianity?

[Ugly Bastard]

The recommended reads thread was getting a little overran by this discussion. I wanted to continue it after something Repug said, but I thought I should make a new thread to do so.

Regarding the fact that atheists act in the same way as Christians by reading all of the same material and closing their minds off to other possibilities, you said:

[Atheists are doing] the exact same thing that the religious people [they] can't stand are doing.

I couldn't agree with this point more, and I clarify my thoughts on the following.

Religious people (let's just say Christians for conversation's sake) believe strongly and unflappably that anyone who lives and dies on this Earth without accepting Jesus Christ as their savior will have eternal fire waiting for them after death. Atheists believe just as strongly that these religious people are wrong.

The thing that bothers me about both of these groups is this; each side is acting irrationally by believing so devoutly in something they have no way of proving or disproving. Now, between the two sides, I tend to side with the atheists simply because a guy who died 2,000 years ago coming down from heaven like a superhero and taking white Americans to heaven with him while sending most others to eternal fire sounds a lot less believable than those who think this occurance will most decidedly not happen.

However, more than either of these two sides of the arguments, I find theological coherence with the agnostic belief that, stated simply, contends the best response to most arguments involving God or religion are to simply say "I do not know".

In Recommended Reads I recommended Sam Harris' Letter To A Christian Nation so fervently not because I found the book to be a compelling argument for atheism, but rather as a great source of arguments to demonstrate why a devout belief in Jesus's salvation is ludicrous. No where in the book does Harris deny the existence of a supreme being, which is the definition of atheism, a theological stance that makes only slightly more sense to me as that of those waiting for Jesus to come down from the clouds.

[Beebs]

I agree with your sentiment that alot of atheists seem to exist simply to bash believers, but I think that there are some logical arguments that nearly eliminate the possibility of a personable god like the christian god. The problem of evil, omnipotence and voluntary action and random chance.

So while I don't think the idea of a god that exists as a sort of unmoved mover or starting force for the universe is dismisable, I don't think dismissing the idea of a god as a person that is something like a living thing is anywere near as insane as believing in it.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Nice post, and it clarified a lot of things. I agree with most of what you said.

[Heaven Can Wait]

Well the way I see it, I was born athiest, not agnostic, and not religious.
Athiesm is having no idea of a god, and I dont.

[Heaven Can Wait]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

The thing that bothers me about both of these groups is this; each side is acting irrationally by believing so devoutly in something they have no way of proving or disproving.

Thats kinda getting into the 'what is proof'
where you get the occasional assfuck who will deny gravity with the 'its not 100%'
I have enough physical proof, and a whole lot of other shit, that says there is no christian god, or any other mainstream god.

A lot of atheists aren't pissed off at sane christians.

Im gonna go ahead and recommend that you download this video

http://www.torrentspy.com/torrent/91...us_Camp_DVDRIP

Christian vs Christian, not very mind opening, but it does display the two types of christian.

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

Regarding the fact that atheists act in the same way as Christians by reading all of the same material and closing their minds off to other possibilities, you said:

I couldn't agree with this point more, and I clarify my thoughts on the following.

I am atheist. I am not similar to Christians in that I close my mind off to other possibilities.

They have read the material and accepted it whereas I have read the material and refused it. I have not 'closed off' my mind, I have made an open minded decision. The irrationality could be accepting the implausible material.

As an atheist, I do not believe strongly that religious people are wrong. I simply do not care what other people believe, disimiliar to Christians in that they care that I do not believe.

Thinking about it, I know many several Christians that don't care that I don't care. I think everyone just needs to chill out about the whole religion deal.

[AcTivE]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

Religious people (let's just say Christians for conversation's sake) believe strongly and unflappably that anyone who lives and dies on this Earth without accepting Jesus Christ as their savior will have eternal fire waiting for them after death. Atheists believe just as strongly that these religious people are wrong.

I disagree. First of all eternity is now. Secondly where does it say eternal fire is waiting for them AFTER death? Show me if you can. I'm pretty sure that it says unbelievers will be thrown into a lake of fire.

It also says no one will enter the kingdom of heaven unless they are reborn from fire and water (depicts different passages in the Bible).

I guarntee 100% if you pray (and are serious), and ask God to prove to you that you are there--then flip open the Bible, something amazing will happen. It's like your thoughts are read. Only have to have a little faith, then it will be proved to you, beyond a shadow of doubt.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally Posted by AcTivE

Secondly where does it say eternal fire is waiting for them AFTER death? Show me if you can. I'm pretty sure that it says unbelievers will be thrown into a lake of fire.

What's your point?

Originally Posted by AcTivE

I guarntee 100% if you pray (and are serious), and ask God to prove to you that you are there--then flip open the Bible, something amazing will happen. It's like your thoughts are read. Only have to have a little faith, then it will be proved to you, beyond a shadow of doubt.

This is subject. People will always choose to believe what they wish.

[Ugly Bastard]

Subjective* (wouldn't let me edit).

[Ugly Bastard]

Put another way: Christianity is a little like that mind-reader John Edwards. If you come into it with a desire to believe, then yes, you will indeed walk away in amazement that he was able to pinpoint the name of your dead Grandpa.

Religious belief is more about a desire to believe in something than it is about that which is being believed in.

[AcTivE]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

Put another way: Christianity is a little like that mind-reader John Edwards. If you come into it with a desire to believe, then yes, you will indeed walk away in amazement that he was able to pinpoint the name of your dead Grandpa.

Religious belief is more about the desire to believe in something than it is about that which is being believed in itself.

Can't have a conversation with someone that wants to argue. Agreed?

And my point was--especially in Christianity, too many people focus on what happens after our body dies. I believe Jesus came to show us what is happening NOW.

and when I said flip open the Bible, I mean exactly that. You could believe that what you read was coincidence, but after it happens time and time again, you know something is there. Which is why there are hardcore Christians out there. My point of view is that even if you are hardcore about it, don't let people know until the time is right.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally Posted by AcTivE

too many people focus on what happens after our body dies.

That's the only reason religion even exists: fear of death.

[Repugnant Abomination]

Active, if you can prove that God exists then I will believe, but it's not up to me to disprove any wild notion you can come up with, it's your responsibility to back up your claim. That is the standard we hold everything else to, including God. For example, I can prove there is a force known as gravity because if I hold out a pen and drop it, it will fall down. More importantly, everyone can do this and see that it works. So I'm not interested in your personal experiences where you "felt" something, or prayed and then turned to a page in the Bible that you felt reflected your prayer. No, I'm asking you to prove it, the same way scientists prove their theories. If you can't, then you should just stop. All the philosophical psycho bable in the world isn't going to convince anyone here.

[ninjaface]

Originally Posted by AcTivE

I guarntee 100% if you pray (and are serious), and ask God to prove to you that you are there--then flip open the Bible, something amazing will happen. It's like your thoughts are read. Only have to have a little faith, then it will be proved to you, beyond a shadow of doubt.

Its so true. I prayed to god and asked him to prove that he is there. And when I flipped open the bible to a random page, a rainbow shot out and hit me in the face!

But really...

Originally Posted by AcTivE

and when I said flip open the Bible, I mean exactly that. You could believe that what you read was coincidence, but after it happens time and time again, you know something is there.

No. After it happens time and time again, you know you are reading the bible. How can it not be coincidence? If I were to try your little 'prove god is real' exercise, chances are very high you could extract a god affirming quote. The same would be true whether or not you prayed before hand. And why is that? ITS THE GOD DAMNED BIBLE. It's all about god. Thats like telling someone to find the hay instead of the needle (you know, the whole 'needle in a haystack' thing). But what if I just so happened to open it to a part where you can't really extract a god affirming quote? That would be the part where you swoop in and save the christian day and say something like "Oh well you probably didn't believe hard enough." But I didn't try it because your little "exercise in faith" is flawed to begin with. It's set up to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Oh.. and one more thing. I think I figured out how to better understand your views on religion. Every time you use the word 'faith', I can just mentally replace it with 'gullibility'. Then much of what you say would make sense.

[AcTivE]

Originally Posted by ninjaface

Its so true. I prayed to god and asked him to prove that he is there. And when I flipped open the bible to a random page, a rainbow shot out and hit me in the face!

But really...



No. After it happens time and time again, you know you are reading the bible. How can it not be coincidence? If I were to try your little 'prove god is real' exercise, chances are very high you could extract a god affirming quote. The same would be true whether or not you prayed before hand. And why is that? ITS THE GOD DAMNED BIBLE. It's all about god. Thats like telling someone to find the hay instead of the needle (you know, the whole 'needle in a haystack' thing). But what if I just so happened to open it to a part where you can't really extract a god affirming quote? That would be the part where you swoop in and save the christian day and say something like "Oh well you probably didn't believe hard enough." But I didn't try it because your little "exercise in faith" is flawed to begin with. It's set up to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Oh.. and one more thing. I think I figured out how to better understand your views on religion. Every time you use the word 'faith', I can just mentally replace it with 'gullibility'. Then much of what you say would make sense.

I'll get more into it and answer people's quotes. But when I say time and time again, God shows he is there (without reading the Bible).

[AcTivE]

and I can PROVE it, if you are willing to put some faith forward, unwavering--that there may be a God. If you are up for that, I can continue and *most* likely give proof. I've done it before (well not me, but prayed for it), and had two witnesses to the fact. The both hate me now, but as the Bible says...

[Beebs]

You can prove the existence of God? Thats a pretty bold statement as it would make you the first person in recorded history.

[Ugly Bastard]

AcTivE,

What makes you want to believe in God?

[Mr. Blonde]

Wow this is what's so frustrating about fucking Christianity...they want you to COMPLETELY believe in the Bible before you can actually see what the bible preaches...and by then you're already under the influence of it so exactly what the rest of you are saying...you see what you want to believe...problem is with most people who are coming from this end of the spectrum is that simply we can't dumb ourselves down to the point of believing in something we know deep down does not exist....

...Repug is EXACTLY right. Why should we have the burden of disproof here? Because the majority of the world are "Christians"? You should be able to PROVE to us that God exists, and even then, belief should still be an OPTION...we shouldn't have to believe in something before we even know it fucking exists...that's insane.

Active, let me ask you this. And seriously, just do this for me. What makes your God and religion any different than any other mythical creature? The Bible? The masses? Many years of outdated belief and teaching? All were created or consist of nothing but human influence.... History has seen people "prove" and disprov ridiculous notions since the beginning of time...and I fully believe that a paradigm shift is coming to Christianity, hopefully very soon. If anything can be seen as spectacular about Christianity, it should be as how in the FUCK has it survived this long...Our bodies are there...now the human races' minds need to catch up to evolution and shed such archaic beliefs that were created in the first place to make explanations for all of the shit that modern science has disproved that they didn't have the technology to explain way back when....and now people just need a patsy to blame their problems on and help them deal with their fucking lives.



"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

>Bertrand Russell

[AcTivE]

For the 'proof' I'm not saying you need to even believe the Bible.

If I was able to talk to someone (that wasn't very religious before), and on the way home (I was only saying stuff that I felt need to be said...like going through me), he pulled over on the side of the road, and knelt down on his knees and cried.

What makes me want to believe in God? I hit rock bottom, and thats when my parents said you need to turn to God. So I challenged him. I said--if you are going to show yourself, now better be it. And I've been hardcore since then.

As far as Christianity being different from other religions...lets not get into that yet. Is that OK? I got into Christianity after getting into eastern religion, and knowing some basic 'truths'. My Favorite books (probably before the bible), are the Bahagvagita, and the Dhammapada (which I believe means peace in your footsteps)

Let me know if I missed anything.

And you don't have the burden of disproof. Jesus said himself that the only miracle he is going to show people is Jonah and the whale. I myself have witnessed what I call I miracle, and I suppose I'm willing to share it with you. I hope your viewpoint of what I have to say doesn't change though.

I was addicted to morphine, hardcore, basically was very close to being a junkie. I didn't do it everyday, but about 3 days out of the week, and I was up to 900mg (find a calc, and thats 2,400 vicodin in one day). One night when I was high as fuck, I walked out into this field and just sat there smoking some cigs. Then I decided I need to be done with this. I 'prayed' (let God know that my thoughts and feelings were directted to him). And I said, look at the way I feel, look at how beautiful this is, and I said this is why I can not stop. I said you are going to have to help me through this one.

The very next day I asked my dealer for some more, and he said he wasn't going to be dealing anymore. You could call that coincidence, I don't because I have faith that God will do what he says he will do. (ask the Father for anything, and it will be given to you)

[AcTivE]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

we shouldn't have to believe in something before we even know it fucking exists...that's insane.

Disagree 100%. If you knew it existed before putting faith forward, you wouldn't have much of a free will.

[AcTivE]

...kept reading more. Can that teapot hear your thoughts and respond in real time to what you are asking for? God is ALIVE. He hears me and my point of view, and he hears you and your point of view. All I'm waiting for is for a positive response from you (as I believe I'm in a relationship with him based on past events), or him to tell me to stop, because now is not the right time.

[AcTivE]

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

Active, if you can prove that God exists then I will believe, but it's not up to me to disprove any wild notion you can come up with, it's your responsibility to back up your claim. That is the standard we hold everything else to, including God. For example, I can prove there is a force known as gravity because if I hold out a pen and drop it, it will fall down. More importantly, everyone can do this and see that it works. So I'm not interested in your personal experiences where you "felt" something, or prayed and then turned to a page in the Bible that you felt reflected your prayer. No, I'm asking you to prove it, the same way scientists prove their theories. If you can't, then you should just stop. All the philosophical psycho bable in the world isn't going to convince anyone here.

I can prove it (well I can't, but you know what I'm saying). If you TRULY want proof, I will ask for it, and say a few words to God about it (don't take this as rediculous). You are the one that has to be willing to see the proof. Once you do, there is no turning back.

[Ugly Bastard]

AcTivE,

I'm happy you were able to get over your morphine addiction (provided it was an addiction you sought to rid yourself of). Why are you pushing your solution to that problem on us?

[AcTivE]

I don't see how you see that as pushing. I'm just stating an experience I've had in my life.