Help F3lix and I Settle an Argument About Evolution - Nubblies.net Forums

Orgazmo · 08-26-2011, 11:44 PM

There is a cat that is born and, without any human intervention, the cat mates and has a litter of kittens. This is litter A.

Immediately after birthing the litter of kittens, a vet declaws the cat.

Once recovered, the cat has another litter of kittens. This is litter B.

Please answer the poll question that has to do with the average claw lengths of the two litters relative to one another.

Also, if you have the time, please post your reasoning along with your guess as to which of us believes which side.

Thank you for your time.

THEINCREDIBLEdork · 08-27-2011, 01:59 AM

Is this a joke?

Declawing a cat doesn't change the make up of it's DNA. Therefore, no. No, declawing a cat has no effect on the length of its kitten's paws. Absolutely. Not.

I'm curious to hear the logic behind the other side of this argument. I can't even guess which one of you got this wrong it's so stupid.

DJ FC · 08-27-2011, 02:50 AM

It's not incredibly stupid if you are ignorant of modern science. Very smart people once believed in this:

Lamarckism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

thekremlin · 08-27-2011, 03:00 AM

It's actually incredibly stupid. They've known the right answer to this question for a very long time.

Ugly Bastard · 08-27-2011, 03:22 AM

I wish there was an "LOL, fuck no!" option.

Repugnant Abomination · 08-27-2011, 03:50 AM

I had to read the scenario twice because I was sure I must have missed something.

No, obviously.

THEINCREDIBLEdork · 08-27-2011, 04:19 AM

I'm going to grow my hair long when I inseminate my next woman so there is less chance the my kid will be bald.

DJ FC · 08-27-2011, 04:22 AM

If you guys read the article there are actually cases where Lamarckism does apply. While it seems extremely unlikely that trimming a cat's claws affects it's DNA I find it upsetting that everybody seems to jump on the "that's impossible, you'd have to be an idiot to believe that" bandwagon.

If a genetic scientist told me it was possible I'd be sceptical, but definitely wouldn't rule it out as a possibility.

The world is a lot more complex than people often believe, and to ever say "that's impossible - only an idiot would believe that" about ANYTHING is usually ignorant of mankind's ignorance.

DJ FC · 08-27-2011, 04:48 AM

I've whipped up 2 examples in 10 minutes in the shower to illustrate my point.

The hormone alteration theory:

It's been shown that the hormones of a mother affect a baby's development. In humans the level of testosterone affects the development of the fingers in the womb. And once the fingers are developed they maintain a level of development regardless of their DNA. If a cat were de clawed it could be a very natural reaction for it's hormone balance to change as part of it's survival skills. A wounded cat in the wild probably shouldn't be attacking everything it sees. As a result of this hormone imbalance, the baby cat's claws may be stunted in growth.

The nutrient theory:

Cats consume food just like any other animal to maintain their bodies. Many of the resources in the food they eat are to support the growth of claws. If a mamma cat no longer had claws to maintain of her own, perhaps more of the nutrients she ate would go to building her baby cats claws while in the womb. This baby cat would get a super boost of claw building nutrients which would allow it to be born with larger than normal claws.

I've given you two possibilities of how de clawing a cat could affect the claws of a kitten. Neither of them have to do with DNA.

Would I have to be an idiot to believe in either of these?

THEINCREDIBLEdork · 08-27-2011, 05:16 AM

The thread topic is about evolution. You're an idiot for wasting your time.

DJ FC · 08-27-2011, 07:01 AM

The question says nothing about evolution. Just litter a vs litter b

angry pancake · 08-27-2011, 08:01 AM

Impossible to determine without knowing if the father cat is declawed.

Mr. Blonde · 08-27-2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekremlin

It's actually incredibly stupid. They've known the right answer to this question for a very long time.

I don't remember learning about Lamarckism in school and came to the idea myself a few years ago before I started picking up the pieces of my forgotten education. I actually put the question to the board here and Misty helped set me straight and put me in the right direction, after which I learned about Lamarckism and ended up being very interested in evolution and learning as much as I can about this.

The point of that little anecdote is that it's not bad to not know things, but in general it is very foolish to go about betting or asserting truths that one hasn't researched yet. I can forgive f3lix for thinking about it, as I was once in the same ignorant position and the American public, even if they "believe" in it (in quotations because it is an indisputable fact) generally has a very poor perception of evolution and still thinks we came from monkeys and apes (both of which are false).

TL;DR: Nothing wrong with ideas and questions, but claiming ignorance from the start and subsequently learning something new is a much better stance than claiming truth and being embarrassed.

thekremlin · 08-27-2011, 09:24 AM

Idiots, the lot of you.

Orgazmo · 08-27-2011, 10:41 AM

My cat was trying to sharpen his "claws" on the door frame last night. He does this regularly, even though he has no claws. This baffled f3lix. I explained that, just because he doesn't have claws, it doesn't take away his evolutionary instinct to try to sharpen his claws. The cat isn't smart enough to put together that it's doing nothing, he just knows that he should be doing that action.

This led to f3lix claiming that cats shouldn't even have claws anymore because they don't need them. I told him that's not how evolution worked and that cats would only not have claws if having claws hindered their ability to live and reproduce. He argued very strongly against that.

I sort of assumed that I wasn't understanding him correctly until I came up with the above scenario and posed that question to him. Unfortunately, he insisted that litter A would have longer claws.

Thank you all for clearing up this matter for us.

Mr. Blonde · 08-27-2011, 10:44 AM

A Tea Partier that doesn't understand evolution?

ninjaface · 08-27-2011, 02:31 PM

I could not choose either answer. Why? We have no idea how fast litter A or litter B is traveling, nor what time zone this scenario is occurring in.

Pls take me seriously.

Nathan · 08-27-2011, 02:47 PM

My parent's cat is always sharpening its 'nubs' on random cardboard boxes as well. It has been declawed since it was about 6 months old, but 15 years later, the cat still religiously tries to sharpen its non-existent claws.

Mentally, a declawed cat seems to act much the same as a non-declawed cat. What would be interesting though to find out is, what happens to cats if they are born without ever having claws? Is it still their natural instinct to try to sharpen and/or use their claws, even though the don't, and never have existed?

Repugnant Abomination · 08-27-2011, 02:53 PM

DJFC was on an individuality kick. Now he's on an anything's possible!!!!! kick.

Kevin Garnett "ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE" - YouTube

Felix has being vying for title of village idiot for a while now.

thekremlin · 08-27-2011, 02:56 PM

I'm pretty sure the world is flat.

THEINCREDIBLEdork · 08-27-2011, 03:11 PM

It's not incredibly stupid to believe the world is flat if you are ignorant of modern science. Very smart people once believed in this:

Flat Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DJ FC · 08-27-2011, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repugnant Abomination

DJFC was on an individuality kick. Now he's on an anything's possible!!!!! kick.
Kevin Garnett "ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE" - YouTube

Felix has being vying for title of village idiot for a while now.

More than just a kick. Ive had to live with constant annoyance of people ignorantly saying things in absolute terns for many years without realizing that it wasnt their views i objected to: it was their insistence on absolutes: specifically things which are absolutely true or impossible.

Beebs · 08-27-2011, 04:59 PM

Fucking hell

angry pancake · 08-27-2011, 05:52 PM

I almost never use absolutes.

thekremlin · 08-27-2011, 07:29 PM

I have literally never used an absolute.

View Poll Results: Will litter B be any different than litter A because of the declawing?
Yes	0	0%
No	7	100.00%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

08-26-2011, 11:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
Orgazmo COME ON YOU YANKS Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 15,697 Internets: 305662	Help F3lix and I Settle an Argument About Evolution There is a cat that is born and, without any human intervention, the cat mates and has a litter of kittens. This is litter A. Immediately after birthing the litter of kittens, a vet declaws the cat. Once recovered, the cat has another litter of kittens. This is litter B. Please answer the poll question that has to do with the average claw lengths of the two litters relative to one another. Also, if you have the time, please post your reasoning along with your guess as to which of us believes which side. Thank you for your time.

08-27-2011, 01:59 AM	#2 (permalink)
THEINCREDIBLEdork Emperor Meow Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 9,316 Internets: 284585	Is this a joke? Declawing a cat doesn't change the make up of it's DNA. Therefore, no. No, declawing a cat has no effect on the length of its kitten's paws. Absolutely. Not. I'm curious to hear the logic behind the other side of this argument. I can't even guess which one of you got this wrong it's so stupid.
	#YOLO

08-27-2011, 02:50 AM	#3 (permalink)
DJ FC MURICAN Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 5,136 Internets: 250185	It's not incredibly stupid if you are ignorant of modern science. Very smart people once believed in this: Lamarckism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
	The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.

08-27-2011, 04:19 AM	#7 (permalink)
THEINCREDIBLEdork Emperor Meow Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 9,316 Internets: 284585	I'm going to grow my hair long when I inseminate my next woman so there is less chance the my kid will be bald.
	#YOLO

08-27-2011, 03:00 AM	#4 (permalink)
thekremlin Don't call me Shirley Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: London Posts: 3,271 Internets: 220249	It's actually incredibly stupid. They've known the right answer to this question for a very long time.

08-27-2011, 03:22 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ugly Bastard Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 13,643 Internets: 247330	I wish there was an "LOL, fuck no!" option.

08-27-2011, 03:50 AM	#6 (permalink)
Repugnant Abomination Almost there... Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,979 Internets: 161638	I had to read the scenario twice because I was sure I must have missed something. No, obviously.

08-27-2011, 04:22 AM	#8 (permalink)
DJ FC MURICAN Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 5,136 Internets: 250185	If you guys read the article there are actually cases where Lamarckism does apply. While it seems extremely unlikely that trimming a cat's claws affects it's DNA I find it upsetting that everybody seems to jump on the "that's impossible, you'd have to be an idiot to believe that" bandwagon. If a genetic scientist told me it was possible I'd be sceptical, but definitely wouldn't rule it out as a possibility. The world is a lot more complex than people often believe, and to ever say "that's impossible - only an idiot would believe that" about ANYTHING is usually ignorant of mankind's ignorance.
	The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.

08-27-2011, 04:48 AM	#9 (permalink)
DJ FC MURICAN Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 5,136 Internets: 250185	I've whipped up 2 examples in 10 minutes in the shower to illustrate my point. The hormone alteration theory: It's been shown that the hormones of a mother affect a baby's development. In humans the level of testosterone affects the development of the fingers in the womb. And once the fingers are developed they maintain a level of development regardless of their DNA. If a cat were de clawed it could be a very natural reaction for it's hormone balance to change as part of it's survival skills. A wounded cat in the wild probably shouldn't be attacking everything it sees. As a result of this hormone imbalance, the baby cat's claws may be stunted in growth. The nutrient theory: Cats consume food just like any other animal to maintain their bodies. Many of the resources in the food they eat are to support the growth of claws. If a mamma cat no longer had claws to maintain of her own, perhaps more of the nutrients she ate would go to building her baby cats claws while in the womb. This baby cat would get a super boost of claw building nutrients which would allow it to be born with larger than normal claws. I've given you two possibilities of how de clawing a cat could affect the claws of a kitten. Neither of them have to do with DNA. Would I have to be an idiot to believe in either of these?
	The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.

08-27-2011, 05:16 AM	#10 (permalink)
THEINCREDIBLEdork Emperor Meow Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 9,316 Internets: 284585	The thread topic is about evolution. You're an idiot for wasting your time.
	#YOLO

08-27-2011, 07:01 AM	#11 (permalink)
DJ FC MURICAN Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 5,136 Internets: 250185	The question says nothing about evolution. Just litter a vs litter b
	The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.

08-27-2011, 09:24 AM	#14 (permalink)
thekremlin Don't call me Shirley Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: London Posts: 3,271 Internets: 220249	Idiots, the lot of you.

08-27-2011, 10:41 AM	#15 (permalink)
Orgazmo COME ON YOU YANKS Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 15,697 Internets: 305662	My cat was trying to sharpen his "claws" on the door frame last night. He does this regularly, even though he has no claws. This baffled f3lix. I explained that, just because he doesn't have claws, it doesn't take away his evolutionary instinct to try to sharpen his claws. The cat isn't smart enough to put together that it's doing nothing, he just knows that he should be doing that action. This led to f3lix claiming that cats shouldn't even have claws anymore because they don't need them. I told him that's not how evolution worked and that cats would only not have claws if having claws hindered their ability to live and reproduce. He argued very strongly against that. I sort of assumed that I wasn't understanding him correctly until I came up with the above scenario and posed that question to him. Unfortunately, he insisted that litter A would have longer claws. Thank you all for clearing up this matter for us.

08-27-2011, 10:44 AM	#16 (permalink)
Mr. Blonde Spice Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 17,969 Internets: 278288	A Tea Partier that doesn't understand evolution?

08-27-2011, 04:59 PM	#23 (permalink)
Beebs Poor Sport Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianapolis / Middlebury / Long Lake Posts: 5,306 Internets: 127341	Fucking hell

08-27-2011, 02:31 PM	#17 (permalink)
ninjaface Level 20 Holothetan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Space Posts: 5,245 Internets: 210144	I could not choose either answer. Why? We have no idea how fast litter A or litter B is traveling, nor what time zone this scenario is occurring in. Pls take me seriously.

08-27-2011, 02:47 PM	#18 (permalink)
Nathan Nasty Nate Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 627 Internets: 4881	My parent's cat is always sharpening its 'nubs' on random cardboard boxes as well. It has been declawed since it was about 6 months old, but 15 years later, the cat still religiously tries to sharpen its non-existent claws. Mentally, a declawed cat seems to act much the same as a non-declawed cat. What would be interesting though to find out is, what happens to cats if they are born without ever having claws? Is it still their natural instinct to try to sharpen and/or use their claws, even though the don't, and never have existed?

08-27-2011, 02:56 PM	#20 (permalink)
thekremlin Don't call me Shirley Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: London Posts: 3,271 Internets: 220249	I'm pretty sure the world is flat.

08-27-2011, 03:11 PM	#21 (permalink)
THEINCREDIBLEdork Emperor Meow Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 9,316 Internets: 284585	It's not incredibly stupid to believe the world is flat if you are ignorant of modern science. Very smart people once believed in this: Flat Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
	#YOLO

08-27-2011, 07:29 PM	#25 (permalink)
thekremlin Don't call me Shirley Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: London Posts: 3,271 Internets: 220249	I have literally never used an absolute.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Apartment #1034 Weekly Din-Din Thread	Ugly Bastard	General Chat	220	01-17-2013 08:45 PM
f3lix explains August 2nd	DDTempest	Shit Talking Central	0	07-25-2011 11:45 PM
f3lix Is Good At The AIM	Ugly Bastard	General Chat	11	09-08-2007 11:21 AM