Athiests CAN Go To Heaven V 2.0

[Pliedes]

So I'm assuming you read the part about substantiation and agreed with it.

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />AcTivE:
No I don't [understand how my arugements are hallow], please help me

AcTivE, put yourself in my shoes, and try to follow what I have seen you post lately.

You: "If you do not need a Savior to get into heaven, then why aren't we all in heaven right now?"

Me: "How do you know heaven exists? Your arguement is hallow, you can't prove the existance of the thing you are argueing for."

You: "I don't understand, please help me."

This whole thing is quite humorous to me. AcTivE, I think the best move you could make right now, is to take a step back from your beliefs, and read everything you have said.

You are on this big crusade to prove to everyone why Christianity is the answer, and along the way, you abandoned the beliefs of Christianity by calling people "dicks" and "fucking retards".

The beauty part of this whole thing, is I consider myself to be a Christian, I started out just playing Devil's advocate in this thread. Lately I have been doubting Christianity more and more and ironically, you have done nothing but push me further away from the Christian faith in this thread with your sorry arguements for Christianity.

Christianity teaches love for all, and respect. If you really care about getting people to understand what is so great about Christianity, show them by your love...not your harsh words and mindless arguements.

Just my two cents...

-Ugly Bastard

edit: By your countless number of back-to-back posts, and choppy little put downs, I feel it's pretty apparant that you feel you have to resort to personal attacks to feel better about yourself. This makes me feel good, because something I have said must have set you off. The truth hurts...</font>[/quote]My interpretation of your post is that you felt the need to post it--because you realized that you said some really dumbass things, and indeed could be considered a fucking retard by almost anyone reading it. So, you need to try to make me look like a hellion.

I never said this:

You: "I don't understand, please help me."

I asked for you to explain how hollow my statements were.

If I'm pushing you away from Christianity, then you must not have had a very strong stance for it to begin with...I've argued for it, not against it.

I take no condemnation in using the word 'fucking retard', or 'dick'. You said you consider youself a Christian, I wonder how many times you have cussed on these message boards?

I'm not trying to lead anyone into anything. I'm sorry if you think that. If you would like to know what it takes to be a Christian, read the posts on the first page of this thread. If not--and you want to continue arguing, you can expect me to use language when it is appropriate--especially in defining the extremeties of one's stupidity.

And finally, your last lil jibber-jabber. What is the truth exactly?

My countless posts (which amounted to three...I know it's hard..you can do it!) back to back were from me reading your response..then mine..then realizing that I missed something. I was also mainly shocked about how fucking stupid you are. Resorting to 'prove there is a heaven' when you had no answer to my question which basically disproves any other gods existence (at least rationally as we know it). Read the thread title. If your going to do that, then I'm done replying to you.

[ December 17, 2003, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

[BrassMonkees]

Percip and everyone else, please allow me another day to respond to all that has occured. I have been rather busy and I need time to gather my thoughts. Once I am ready, I will respond in full to everything that has been said.

Until then, I think everyone needs to cool it a bit. Obviously there is a degree of close-mindedness to everyone here. I would strongly encourage AcTive to take a step back for a moment and settle down. UB is pushed away by your profanity because you had no reason to begin attacking these individuals. Of course he, as well as the rest of us, has cussed on this board. But the context and timing in which you used it was just inappropriate. Everyone just needs to step back and try to understand one another's argument. It does no good to bash eachother. It is understandable that people get a little fired up when talking about this, but lets just relax a bit and present reasonable posts. cheers guys

[BrassMonkees]

btw...r/l discussion sometime between christmas and new years sound good to anyone else? we could just meet at some neutral building/home/place and discuss these topics.

[tonguegina]

Sure...we'll invite the WPD and have holding pins for everyone. It'll be great!

[Ugly Bastard]

Enter voice of reason:

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
I would strongly encourage AcTive to take a step back for a moment and settle down. UB is pushed away by your profanity because you had no reason to begin attacking these individuals. Of course he, as well as the rest of us, has cussed on this board. But the context and timing in which you used it was just inappropriate.

-Ugly Bastard

[Fruitacious B]

I was going to mention the exact same thing brass, great call.

My question. If God does indeed exist, and there is a heaven and a hell where saved or unsaved souls go to become angels or demons. Why did God create angels, let alone humans. Just to do his handy work. Sure, you'd get be in eternal paradise, but why? Does God have more than one of these "existances".

Where did God come from? No one has ever been able to clearly answer that to me. I don't want to hear, "he's always been, he's the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end" That's not good enough, it's like asking me why I play the guitar and me saying, "Just because".

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Enter voice of reason:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
I would strongly encourage AcTive to take a step back for a moment and settle down. UB is pushed away by your profanity because you had no reason to begin attacking these individuals. Of course he, as well as the rest of us, has cussed on this board. But the context and timing in which you used it was just inappropriate.

-Ugly Bastard</font>[/quote]UB, read your comment about Hitler, now that's a voice of reason. You are egging this on, so here's another post.

[BigDongedHoe]

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:

Until then, I think everyone needs to cool it a bit. It does no good to bash eachother. It is understandable that people get a little fired up when talking about this, but lets just relax a bit and present reasonable posts. cheers guys

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
btw...r/l discussion sometime between christmas and new years sound good to anyone else? we could just meet at some neutral building/home/place and discuss these topics.

Originally posted by tonguegina:
Sure...we'll invite the WPD and have holding pins for everyone. It'll be great!

Wow Tongue what a great post, way to add to the thread. Something so prevelant and refreshing man props for that. There's no reason to chime in with a one sentence smart-ass comment if you have nothing to add to an otherwise pretty good thread. I'm sorry for getting pissed but the moment I read that the thought of "Vol" came straight to mind.

From what I've learned and read I'll try to answer some questions for people.

First UB I noticed last page where you said something to the affect of "I'll stop as soon as you can prove to me that there is a heaven."

I think it's pretty clear that we can't sit here and show you concrete evidence yes there's a heaven unless you look towards scripture. It comes down to faith, if you have faith in God and faith in the existence of heaven and hell then their lies the truth. Do you believe scripture is true? If you do, then there's a good chance you'd become a Christian.

Fruit:

People don't exactly go to heaven and hell to become angels and demons. Once in heaven you will receive a new body and live on the new earth.

God is eternal, he's been here forever. It's human nature for their to be a reason for everything. A reason to "how God got here" but you don't realize that he has been here forever. But what's forever? Again to get you thinking it says "God created the earth from nothing." What is nothing though? Truly think about that, we can't even comprehend what nothing is. Is nothing a big ball of black? No because that's something. Is nothing just a giant area of air? That's something too, truly think about that because when you think about it what is "nothing"? I think you can similarly compare the thought of eternity, it's almost uncomprehendable.

Even when you become a Christian it's not like all of a sudden everything is answered and you're all knowing. There are some things that humans no matter how devoted to Christ they are will never understand and be able to answer. It comes down to faith and someday when people who are saved arrive in heaven they can ask God all of these questions and then maybe he'll decide to answer those for them.

[ December 17, 2003, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: BigDongedHoe ]

[tonguegina]

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrassMonkees:

Until then, I think everyone needs to cool it a bit. Obviously there is a degree of close-mindedness to everyone here. I would strongly encourage AcTive to take a step back for a moment and settle down. UB is pushed away by your profanity because you had no reason to begin attacking these individuals. Of course he, as well as the rest of us, has cussed on this board. But the context and timing in which you used it was just inappropriate. Everyone just needs to step back and try to understand one another's argument. It does no good to bash eachother. It is understandable that people get a little fired up when talking about this, but lets just relax a bit and present reasonable posts. cheers guys

Originally posted by tonguegina:
Sure...we'll invite the WPD and have holding pins for everyone. It'll be great!

Wow Tongue what a great post, way to add to the thread. Something so prevelant and refreshing man props for that.</font>[/quote]Thanks, man.

[Pliedes]

Originally posted by Fruitacious B:
Where did God come from? No one has ever been able to clearly answer that to me.

Christmas break, we'll have fun.

[Percipere'Chan]

Originally posted by AcTivE:
Jn 14:6-JESUS SAITH UNTO HIM, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.

Still waiting for someone to tell me when, where, in what passage etc. Jesus says ANYONE (not being picky at this point) is going to Hell. Please, post.

As for my other contiuing argument, yeah. It's gonna take longer than my lunch break so I'll get back to it later. Thanks for posting everybody. I appreciate your input.

[Pliedes]

Percy, at this point I'm wondering if you're ever actually read the New Testament. Jesus talks more about Hell than almost any other thing.

"Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire." Mt. 5.21-22

This passage, taken from the Sermon on the Mount, is the first mention of hell to use the Greek word "gehenna" which is very specifically translated to "hell". Other words use in scripture include "hades" and "sheol", but Jesus went a step further here when speaking of hell. Jesus doesn't specifically tell people they're going to hell, because people have until their death to make up there mind, and only then is it finalized. Instead, Jesus speaks of how those how have not chosen him will go to hell.

[Percipere'Chan]

Excellent, Excellent. Many Thanks Pli.
I'll get back to that.

Hm... It's possible I've never read through the New Testament. I'll get back to that. For now:

Click on the link for a picture of AcTivE's "Living God".
Of all religions claiming a "Living God"...
Yeah. You get the picture.

Need a solid statement on 'Savior'. And I don't mean meanderings that I'd have to sift through to get a poor answer that you'd blast me for.
I need an honest statement of what it is to be a savior.

So far I have:
Must have died on a cross.
Must have taken all your sin.

Those definately need refining. Any other's to add for refinement?

So far:
Buddhists: 1
Christians: 0
For: "Living God"
(Seeing as how I can shake his hand and all )
[Don't get pissed off. Just lightening things up.]

[ December 18, 2003, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Percipere'Chan ]

[Percipere'Chan]

Just a quick note. Gonna be reading the bible for a few days. Still listening (reading).

Pli- It has been forever... err... I long time since I last read through the New Testament. Thought I'd take your suggestion to freshen up.

I'm still holding out for an Inclusive Christianity according to Jesus, but I dunno. Doesn't look good right now.

[Pliedes]

Percy, I don't think Active is getting his point across right. I don't think that Christianity isn't "right" because "Jesus is a living savior" (well yes, but we're backing out a bit). If a religion doesn't have something to back it's talk up with, then it's just that, talk. Thats the whole concept of substantiation that I was talking about.

But there are many religions which can validate their beliefs in a way. Buddhists can teach peace, and Buddha was peaceful, then that substantiates it in a way. If the Daoists advocate simplicity, humility, and union with nature, then Lao Tze better live that way. But if I want life after death, then give me life after death. Enter the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.

At least that's my way of looking at it.

[victim]

Originally posted by Fruitacious B:
Where did God come from? No one has ever been able to clearly answer that to me.

I always thought it was something the Jews thought up to make money...

Seriously though, I know how a few of you hate one-liners (especially in this thread), sorry.

I'd like to jump into this conversation, but since I'm not irrational enough to "argue" with some of you and I have two essays to write within the next 12 hours or so... I'm not going to hop in... yet. Please, continue going in circles.

[Percipere'Chan]

Pli-

I understand what AcTivE is trying to say with his "Living Savior" idea. I just felt I needed to throw something in there to make him think his arguments through a little more. No offense AcTivE but, you haven't had the most clearly communicated thoughts. (see victim's:

Originally Posted by: victim
Please, continue going in circles

Not saying I don't have room for improvement, just thought it might do some good. Yeah, sometimes I'd rather offend somebody than let the conversation keep spinning around.

I do really like and respect your idea of 'substanciation' (sp?). I've been reading the new Testament tonight. Figured I'd start with Matthew and go from there. Some of it is really powerful. Some of it is really disheartening, but not in a good way. I dunno. One way or another I think it's worth putting my quest for defeating 'Sin' on hold for a little while so I can have a better understanding of Christianity. Oh, and that was defeating 'sin' on Final Fantasy X by the way. Absolutely Amazing game. With or without the spiritual/religious plot line.

victim- I'm anxious to hear what you have to say.
Again, I probably won't be posting much the next few days but, I'll still be reading to keep along with the current thoughts.

l8rz.

PS- victim- I for one enjoy the one liners. The humor does us all good.

Alright Bitches. I'm going off to read. I'll smack you around when I get back.

[Pliedes]

Percy, I'd actually recommend starting with the Book of John. The Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) are actually all about the life of Jesus, but written from four different perspectives. John is a little more focused on Jesus and is best for a first time reader.

[Percipere'Chan]

*looks up from bible
*sees Pli's post

I see I must have confused you... Okay, I'll spend a little time on this post just so you know where I am coming from. I know a decent amount about the bible. Was raised Catholic. Went to CCD class all the time. (And tho, I'm sure you've read more...) Read ridiculous amounts of text from the bible. I have read entire 'books' of the bible from start to finish. I'm pretty sure that I have in fact read them all but, again it's been 'forever' (ie- more than a few years) since I have. I'm no beginner, not that *Anyone* trying to read the bible would have much difficulty. Even the original (english) King James version isn't, by any stretch of imagination, difficult literature. Sometimes the cultural context can be tricky but then again, it never seems to be in question when anything really vital happens. So while I appreciate the sentiment... Well... yeah. You get the idea.

*goes back to reading

[Percipere'Chan]

-Thanks all.

Read my bible stories and I've satisfied my craving for religious truth. I'm glad I went back to 'the good book'. I definately have a much better understanding of what 'Christianity' is all about and where I stand in relation. Good luck to all those out there still seeking. I wish you 'godspeed'.

[Fruitacious B]

Originally posted by Percipere'Chan:
I wish you 'godspeed'.

The older I get, the slower that becomes.

[cough man]

[quote]Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:

I don't see how people can come up with their own beliefs on there "way" to heaven when the bible (the word of God) clearly states the way to heaven.

personally my belief in this is that the only way to heaven is by accepting The Lord Jesus Christ as your savior and repenting of your sins if you have done this once in your life and truly meant it with all your heart,soul, and mind then despite whatever mistakes you make in your life from then on you are forgiven for them by the blood of christ which he shed when he died on the cross for us

[Percipere'Chan]

Pete and repeat were sitting on a fence,
Pete fell off, who was left?

[silver and cold]

Aw, man....I used to know the answer to that one.... Repeat?..