Athiests CAN Go To Heaven V 2.0 - Page 3 - Nubblies.net Forums

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
Active-

Understood but I don't like how he is sitting here claiming his vast knowledge of Christianity when what he is saying is so errant with scripture.

He's trying to show that people can go to heaven without going through Jesus--by using scripture against the very belief itself. Honestly, when I first read the verse--i thought "what the hell?"

BigDongedHoe · 12-16-2003, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Percipere'Chan:
Okay, instead of ripping Hoe up on side and down the other, I'll take a moment to defend my argument. And by the way. Brass Monkee is right. Sor far this HAS been a pretty good thread. Let's see here.

The continue on, I'll read how your using scripture to prove their are other ways to heaven besides through Jesus.

Pliedes · 12-16-2003, 02:32 AM

BDH, why don't you go ahead and post some scripture affirming that Jesus is the only way to heaven.

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 02:33 AM

Again BDH, he's not saying that (at least I don't think he is)

Read his post on the first page.

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pliedes:
BDH, why don't you go ahead and post some scripture affirming that Jesus is the only way to heaven.

...we've already had that!

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 02:36 AM

Okay guys, here's the point where your and my ontological arguments diverge paths. You take what the 'bible says' All as the word of God. My lack of doubt in my beliefs comes from my study of the bible's history and origins. Let's really take this point. I'm interested in the possiblity of hearing something new on this.

Some books made it into the bible. Some did not. There was a decision process there that lastest several generations. Several generations after that it was written down. I study to do what Jesus taught.

If you take what Jesus actually teaches and understand it through the time and minds of the people from his time. You don't get all this absolutism that you seem to be so confident in. And why not accept the best of all religions anyway? (we could go to Pascal's argument here, seeing as it gives good weight to monotheistic religions). I'll leave you with that and see what you have to say.

Pliedes · 12-16-2003, 02:39 AM

In that case another thread should be started on the validity of the bible. We could then move onto specific interpretation (for instance Percy's view) from there.

Rudy · 12-16-2003, 02:39 AM

So Chan...where are you going when you die?

Rudy · 12-16-2003, 02:41 AM

and why is nubblies turning into a battle of the religions.

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 02:44 AM

If you take what Jesus actually teaches and understand it through the time and minds of the people from his time. You don't get all this absolutism that you seem to be so confident in.

*******

Was it meant to be understood from looking at it at that time??

My answer would be no.

BrassMonkees · 12-16-2003, 02:44 AM

percipere, i dont know exactly what your believes are but i tend to think that you are rather full of yourself. I don't mean this in a bad way, and maybe i am just misinterpretting what you are saying(why a "real-life forum" would be nice) but you honestly don't have the slightest idea about what you are talking about when refering to Christianity and the Bible.

It is important to see the Bible and read it from the point of view and time that Jesus said it, but don't tell me that is how you are reading it. You have no idea how to interpret it in such a manor. I would think that none of us do. You don't know what it was like during His time, nor what He ment by it. Don't get so full of yourself. But i do agree...Christianity today has become very egotistical and westernized. Something that needs to change

Pliedes · 12-16-2003, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudy:
and why is nubblies turning into a battle of the religions.

We have a couple of threads dedicated to the topics. I don't think nubblies has turned into a battle of religions at all.

BigDongedHoe · 12-16-2003, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pliedes:
BDH, why don't you go ahead and post some scripture affirming that Jesus is the only way to heaven.

Active already did that by posting it on the first page found here

The best examples I can give are going to be taken from somebody else, but have scripture to back up every view that Active and I share:

Yes, Christianity is the one true religion. That may sound awfully dogmatic and narrow-minded, but the simple truth is that Christianity is the only true religion. Jesus said that He alone was the way to the Father (John 14:6), that He alone revealed the Father (Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22). Christians do not go around saying Christianity is the only way because they are arrogant, narrow-minded, stupid, and judgmental. They do so because they believe what Jesus said. They believe in Jesus, who claimed to be God (John 8:58; Exodus 3:14), who forgave sins (Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48), and who rose from the dead (Luke 24:24-29; John 2:19f). Jesus said that He was the only way. Jesus is unique. He was either telling the truth, He was crazy, or He was a liar. But since everyone agrees that Jesus was a good man, how then could He be both good and crazy, or good and a liar? He had to be telling the truth. He is the only way.

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudy:
and why is nubblies turning into a battle of the religions.

I'd like to turn it back into a porn site personally.

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 02:46 AM

Thanks Pli-

I don't mean to say that you're agreeing with me, it's just really helped to solidify my beliefs. From everything I've studied and everyone I've talked to, I definately call into question how a lot of people tend to take the scripture out of context. Oh, and by the way. AcTivE you were absolutely right to call me out on my use of 'Context' earlier. I don't mean to be arrogant. Just frustrated. I have some really strong thoughts here. Actually, I think I'll share them to see what you think.

BigDongedHoe · 12-16-2003, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
Was it meant to be understood from looking at it at that time??

My answer would be no.

I would answer yes to that. In order to interpret we must grasp what the text meant in their time and then try to decipher things such as time, culture, covenant, situation, and language. Once we do that we need to try and cross over those things and grasp what it is intended to mean in our present. Our task isn't to create meaning but rather discover the meaning intended by the author.

[ December 15, 2003, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: BigDongedHoe ]

Rudy · 12-16-2003, 02:50 AM

Come and sing, come and sing
Come and sing to Jesus now
Come and sing, come and sing
Come and sing to Jesus now
Give him thanks for who he is
Give him thanks for what he's done
Come and sing

Jesus won it all for us
When he shed his blood on the cross
Sin and death were swallowed up
They don't have a hold on us now
That's the resoson to sing (dance)

Come and dance, come and dance
Come and dance for Jesus now (x2)
Dance for joy before the throne
Let your inhibitions go
Come and dance

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 02:52 AM

BDH:

****
Our task isn't to create meaning but rather discover the meaning intended by the author.
****

I didn't say it was. I just want to know how we are supposed to look at it from the viewpoint of the people living in those times. We don't live in those times.

I'm not saying the bible changes through time. I'm simply saying there is no feasible way to do that. We can read it, and try to understand it as best as we can in context, but we will never understand it from the position of the people living in those times. To think that we could--seems rediculous to me.

[ December 15, 2003, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
It is important to see the Bible and read it from the point of view and time that Jesus said it... You have no idea how to interpret it in such a manor. I would think that none of us do.

Thanks Brass, that helps me clarify my thought. Jesus tells us that we are indeed inherently divine. Why would we not have the ability to understand these truths that he is teaching us on our own?

If I do sound arrogant, I apologize. I see it, and you are right. I'm frustrated. I haven't had the opportunity to talk about this stuff in a while so I'm very unpolished in my written respect. I really do respect all of your opinions, and the passion through which you are seeking truth. I think we might be about to elevate the conversation to another level of maturity. I hope we do.

[ December 16, 2003, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Percipere'Chan ]

BrassMonkees · 12-16-2003, 03:00 AM

secondly what?

and we are able to understand these truths through the Holy Spirit. He is the one that 'enlightens' us in order for us to read the scripture and fully comprehend it.

BigDongedHoe · 12-16-2003, 03:00 AM

That's for you to figure out, study it and try to do it yourself. You'll find yourself getting a better understanding of scripture rather than spiritualizing it (searching for a deeper "hidden" meaning thatn what is really there) or coming up with your own interpretation of it.

Think of it this way: What did the text mean to the biblical audience?

I think that is a feasible way for us to understand it. We can easily figure out what the text meant to the biblical audience if we study it.

To be totally honest with you I think what matters the most is your relationship with God. Using scripture and encorporating the word of God into your life everyday is important, but what I value most is my relationship with Christ and there's not a day that goes by that I don't have doubts. I question my faith and belief everyday, and at times am not fully convicned there is a God. I don't always feel like the Holy Spirit is working through me however I do believe there is a God and I do believe that he had a son who died on the cross for our sins. As far as I'm concerned Christianity is the only pure form of religion but I also hate that word "religion". My relationship with Christ is what is most important to me.

[ December 16, 2003, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: BigDongedHoe ]

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 03:10 AM

brass was that to me?

bdh:

Think of it this way: What did the text mean to the biblical audience?

To me--that means context. Maybe I'm thinking to much into it. I don't believe everything that was written was meant to be looked at from a person standing in front of Jesus when he said what he said..

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
I would answer yes to that. In order to interpret we must grasp what the text meant in their time and then try to decipher things such as time, culture, covenant, situation, and language. Once we do that we need to try and cross over those things and grasp what it is intended to mean in our present. Our task isn't to create meaning but rather discover the meaning intended by the author.

BDH, that was Awesome. This is going to piss you off (your choice) but, I'm in complete agreement with you here.

Quote:

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
and we are able to understand these truths through the Holy Spirit. He is the one that 'enlightens' us in order for us to read the scripture and fully comprehend it.

This is a great way of describing how we reach the truth that Jesus tries to guide us toward.

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDongedHoe:
[QB]To be totally honest with you I think what matters the most is your relationship with God. Using scripture and encorporating the word of God into your life everyday is important, but what I value most is my relationship with Christ.

and there's not a day that goes by that I don't have doubts. I question my faith and belief everyday, and at times am not fully convicned there is a God.

I do not have this doubt. I do not always have the Holy Spirit flowing through me as I should but then again, this is not some absolute thing but more of a journey that we all partake in.

Quote:

Originally posted by: BDH
My relationship with Christ is what is most important to me.

Good Stuff.

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 03:12 AM

Good discussion. Thanks to all.

BigDongedHoe · 12-16-2003, 03:17 AM

It does not piss me off at all, and I'm not trying to be a dick and I can sound arrogant at times as well. I just didn't understand how you could defend getting into heaven a different way while claiming your a Christian is all, and I don't see how scripture says anything otherwise. I apologize if I came off as a jerk, I didn't intend to. I was just as you were: frustrated.

Active-
Yes I see your point but what I'm saying is that is just the first step. Of course we're not going to take what Jesus said and apply it straight from that. This is why we try to understand that first then go from there and cross over to what the meaning is now and how we can apply it.

12-16-2003, 02:33 AM	#54 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	Again BDH, he's not saying that (at least I don't think he is) Read his post on the first page.
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

12-16-2003, 02:36 AM	#56 (permalink)
Percipere'Chan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: My Machine Posts: 460 Internets: -238	Okay guys, here's the point where your and my ontological arguments diverge paths. You take what the 'bible says' All as the word of God. My lack of doubt in my beliefs comes from my study of the bible's history and origins. Let's really take this point. I'm interested in the possiblity of hearing something new on this. Some books made it into the bible. Some did not. There was a decision process there that lastest several generations. Several generations after that it was written down. I study to do what Jesus taught. If you take what Jesus actually teaches and understand it through the time and minds of the people from his time. You don't get all this absolutism that you seem to be so confident in. And why not accept the best of all religions anyway? (we could go to Pascal's argument here, seeing as it gives good weight to monotheistic religions). I'll leave you with that and see what you have to say.
	Dead, death, grim on a pale horse, empty, hollow, inanimate, fataled, black curtained, annihilated.

12-16-2003, 02:44 AM	#60 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	If you take what Jesus actually teaches and understand it through the time and minds of the people from his time. You don't get all this absolutism that you seem to be so confident in. ******* Was it meant to be understood from looking at it at that time?? My answer would be no.
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

12-16-2003, 02:44 AM	#61 (permalink)
BrassMonkees Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: winona lake Posts: 840 Internets: 10	percipere, i dont know exactly what your believes are but i tend to think that you are rather full of yourself. I don't mean this in a bad way, and maybe i am just misinterpretting what you are saying(why a "real-life forum" would be nice) but you honestly don't have the slightest idea about what you are talking about when refering to Christianity and the Bible. It is important to see the Bible and read it from the point of view and time that Jesus said it, but don't tell me that is how you are reading it. You have no idea how to interpret it in such a manor. I would think that none of us do. You don't know what it was like during His time, nor what He ment by it. Don't get so full of yourself. But i do agree...Christianity today has become very egotistical and westernized. Something that needs to change
	neither here nor there...

12-16-2003, 02:46 AM	#65 (permalink)
Percipere'Chan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: My Machine Posts: 460 Internets: -238	Thanks Pli- I don't mean to say that you're agreeing with me, it's just really helped to solidify my beliefs. From everything I've studied and everyone I've talked to, I definately call into question how a lot of people tend to take the scripture out of context. Oh, and by the way. AcTivE you were absolutely right to call me out on my use of 'Context' earlier. I don't mean to be arrogant. Just frustrated. I have some really strong thoughts here. Actually, I think I'll share them to see what you think.
	Dead, death, grim on a pale horse, empty, hollow, inanimate, fataled, black curtained, annihilated.

12-16-2003, 02:32 AM	#53 (permalink)
Pliedes Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 4,594 Internets: 1608	BDH, why don't you go ahead and post some scripture affirming that Jesus is the only way to heaven.

12-16-2003, 02:39 AM	#57 (permalink)
Pliedes Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 4,594 Internets: 1608	In that case another thread should be started on the validity of the bible. We could then move onto specific interpretation (for instance Percy's view) from there.

12-16-2003, 02:39 AM	#58 (permalink)
Rudy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 187 Internets: 10	So Chan...where are you going when you die?

12-16-2003, 02:41 AM	#59 (permalink)
Rudy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 187 Internets: 10	and why is nubblies turning into a battle of the religions.

12-16-2003, 02:50 AM	#67 (permalink)
Rudy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 187 Internets: 10	Come and sing, come and sing Come and sing to Jesus now Come and sing, come and sing Come and sing to Jesus now Give him thanks for who he is Give him thanks for what he's done Come and sing Jesus won it all for us When he shed his blood on the cross Sin and death were swallowed up They don't have a hold on us now That's the resoson to sing (dance) Come and dance, come and dance Come and dance for Jesus now (x2) Dance for joy before the throne Let your inhibitions go Come and dance

12-16-2003, 02:52 AM	#68 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	BDH: ** Our task isn't to create meaning but rather discover the meaning intended by the author. ** I didn't say it was. I just want to know how we are supposed to look at it from the viewpoint of the people living in those times. We don't live in those times. I'm not saying the bible changes through time. I'm simply saying there is no feasible way to do that. We can read it, and try to understand it as best as we can in context, but we will never understand it from the position of the people living in those times. To think that we could--seems rediculous to me. [ December 15, 2003, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

12-16-2003, 03:00 AM	#70 (permalink)
BrassMonkees Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: winona lake Posts: 840 Internets: 10	secondly what? and we are able to understand these truths through the Holy Spirit. He is the one that 'enlightens' us in order for us to read the scripture and fully comprehend it.
	neither here nor there...

12-16-2003, 03:00 AM	#71 (permalink)
BigDongedHoe Sex Kitten Milf fuuucck Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 3,704 Internets: 55974	That's for you to figure out, study it and try to do it yourself. You'll find yourself getting a better understanding of scripture rather than spiritualizing it (searching for a deeper "hidden" meaning thatn what is really there) or coming up with your own interpretation of it. Think of it this way: What did the text mean to the biblical audience? I think that is a feasible way for us to understand it. We can easily figure out what the text meant to the biblical audience if we study it. To be totally honest with you I think what matters the most is your relationship with God. Using scripture and encorporating the word of God into your life everyday is important, but what I value most is my relationship with Christ and there's not a day that goes by that I don't have doubts. I question my faith and belief everyday, and at times am not fully convicned there is a God. I don't always feel like the Holy Spirit is working through me however I do believe there is a God and I do believe that he had a son who died on the cross for our sins. As far as I'm concerned Christianity is the only pure form of religion but I also hate that word "religion". My relationship with Christ is what is most important to me. [ December 16, 2003, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: BigDongedHoe ]
	There's life and then there is Cubs baseball, it's a chore to seperate the two.

12-16-2003, 03:10 AM	#72 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	brass was that to me? bdh: Think of it this way: What did the text mean to the biblical audience? To me--that means context. Maybe I'm thinking to much into it. I don't believe everything that was written was meant to be looked at from a person standing in front of Jesus when he said what he said..
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

12-16-2003, 03:12 AM	#74 (permalink)
Percipere'Chan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: My Machine Posts: 460 Internets: -238	Good discussion. Thanks to all.
	Dead, death, grim on a pale horse, empty, hollow, inanimate, fataled, black curtained, annihilated.

12-16-2003, 03:17 AM	#75 (permalink)
BigDongedHoe Sex Kitten Milf fuuucck Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 3,704 Internets: 55974	It does not piss me off at all, and I'm not trying to be a dick and I can sound arrogant at times as well. I just didn't understand how you could defend getting into heaven a different way while claiming your a Christian is all, and I don't see how scripture says anything otherwise. I apologize if I came off as a jerk, I didn't intend to. I was just as you were: frustrated. Active- Yes I see your point but what I'm saying is that is just the first step. Of course we're not going to take what Jesus said and apply it straight from that. This is why we try to understand that first then go from there and cross over to what the meaning is now and how we can apply it.
	There's life and then there is Cubs baseball, it's a chore to seperate the two.