Athiests CAN Go To Heaven V 2.0 - Nubblies.net Forums

ProfessorNumber · 12-16-2003, 12:35 AM

Alright, stemming from precipitations stupid-ass
Thread, the "Athiests Can go to heaven v 2.0, has been spawned. The original has been ruined by people going off on tangents. Let's keep this thread focused.

To kick things off, I feel that many people misinterpreted my message in the original "Athiests can go to heaven" thread. My beliefs in God closely follow those of Transcendentalism.

In the early 19th century, the Harvard-educated me such as Emerson began to read the scriptures of eastern religions, namely Hinduism and Buddhism. After doing so they examined their own religious assumptions against the scriptures of eastern religions. "In their perspective, a loving God would not have led so much of humanity astray; there must be truth in these scriptures, too." Truth, if it agreed with an individual's intuition of truth, must be indeed truth.

Hence, I took that theory one step further resulting in my belief that Athiests are capable of getting into Heaven. Let me stress this fact: I believe in God. However, it seems completely illogical and counter-religious for God to turn his back on such a large amount of people; athiests included.

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 12:46 AM

In reply to this:

**********
One simple question: Are hindus and Buddhists going to hell?
**********

I don't know. According to my beliefs, you must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross, and rose from the dead to YOU [edit: oops! forgot important part]. If you are asking me, are they going to hell--according to Christianity? Again, I don't study hinduism or buddhism, my guess however is, yes, they will burn.

[ December 15, 2003, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 12:47 AM

Hey, up your's motherfucker. My thread did it's job. I got you shits thinking. 'Bout time somebody took a little initative. Now. Let's get down to business.

ProfessorNumber · 12-16-2003, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
In reply to this:

**********
One simple question: Are hindus and Buddhists going to hell?
**********

I don't know. According to my beliefs, you must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross, and saved YOU. If you are asking me, are they going to hell--according to Christianity? Again, I don't study hinduism or buddhism, my guess however is, yes, they will burn.

Bullshit. 33% of the world follows some form of Christianity. I suppose the other 66% drew the wrong chance card when they were born, and are now going to hell as a result of their culture. The day that Christianity becomes a matter of luck and chance is the day that I stop believing in God (which won't happen).

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 12:54 AM

Which God is it that you believe in?

ProfessorNumber · 12-16-2003, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
Which God is it that you believe in?

Don't be a smartass. You know full well that I'm referring to the Christian God that you worship. I'll be honest here: I'm not the best Christian, and I certainly don't know much about the Bible other than its ambiguity.

With that in mind, my arguments are based upon logic and life experience. I can't fathom how a loving God would willfully send someone who lived a meaningfull life to Hell because the person chose not to be a Christian. It's utterly ridiculous, especially when you take into consideration that 66% of the world will share that common fate of going to Hell.

I suppose you should thank your mom for not living in Asia and not being Hindu, Active, since otherwise you would most likely be going to Hell (by your logic). It sickens me to think that getting into Heaven is so whimsical that it's determined by your geographical location.

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 01:03 AM

AcTivE:

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
According to my beliefs, you must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross, and rose from the dead to YOU.

I don't know how well you know your bible literature but, if you do know or might consider taking the time I'd like to ask what I think is a simple question. Where, in the bible, does Jesus say that you must believe these things in order to get to Heaven?

Professor Number:
So if it's ridiculous to get get into Heaven based on AcTivE's description of the requirements, what would you say in turn that they are? Or, what does being a good christian mean in your book? And another thing, if you haven't been a really good christian, why the fuck not? If you believe in the religion (to some degree or another) wouldn't it be it's own reward?

[ December 15, 2003, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Percipere'Chan ]

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AcTivE:
Which God is it that you believe in?

Don't be a smartass. You know full well that I'm referring to the Christian God that you worship. I'll be honest here: I'm not the best Christian, and I certainly don't know much about the Bible other than its ambiguity.

With that in mind, my arguments are based upon logic and life experience. I can't fathom how a loving God would willfully send someone who lived a meaningfull life to Hell because the person chose not to be a Christian. It's utterly ridiculous, especially when you take into consideration that 66% of the world will share that common fate of going to Hell.

I suppose you should thank your mom for not living in Asia and not being Hindu, Active, since otherwise you would most likely be going to Hell (by your logic). It sickens me to think that getting into Heaven is so whimsical that it's determined by your geographical location.[/quote]Uhh...fuck you. I'm not being a smart ass. According to the Christian God, which you say you believe in (this answers Percipere'Chan's question also):

Lk 13:3-I TELL YOU, NAY: BUT, EXCEPT YE REPENT, YE SHALL ALL LIKEWISE PERISH. Jn 3:3-JESUS ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HIM, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO THEE, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN AGAIN, HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Mt 18:3-AND SAID, VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, EXCEPT YE BE CONVERTED, AND BECOME AS LITTLE CHILDREN, YE SHALL NOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Jn 14:6-JESUS SAITH UNTO HIM, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.

That good enough Percipere?

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 01:12 AM

We shall see. This is where it's going to get interesting.

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 01:15 AM

I found this on website layed out:

1. Admit you are a sinner. The Bible tells us, ALL HAVE SINNED, AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD-Ro 3:23. THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH-Ro 6:23.

2. Be willing to change, to forsake all sin, and live for Jesus. Repent. Be willing to ask God for His help, to help you make that change. The Bible tells us, EXCEPT YE REPENT, YE SHALL ALL LIKEWISE PERISH-Lk 13:3. WHOSOEVER THEREFORE WILL BE A FRIEND OF THE WORLD IS THE ENEMY OF GOD-Ja 4:4. Jesus tells us, HE THAT IS NOT WITH ME IS AGAINST ME-Mt 12:30.

3. Believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is God’s only begotten Son and that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Believe that He died for your sins. Believe on Jesus Christ as your only hope of salvation. As it is written, THERE IS NONE OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED-Acts 4:12.

If we rob a bank, we have to go to jail. Jesus never sinned. When He died on the cross, He did not die for the things He did. He died to pay your jail sentence.

4. Ask for forgiveness. Ask for God’s mercy. By faith, receive Jesus Christ as your only hope of being saved and do not be ashamed. Confess Him openly as your only hope of salvation. As it is written, BE READY ALWAYS TO GIVE AN ANSWER TO EVERY MAN THAT ASKETH YOU A REASON OF THE HOPE THAT IS IN YOU WITH MEEKNESS AND FEAR-1 Pe 3:15. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The Bible tells us, GOD IS GREATLY TO BE FEARED IN THE ASSEMBLY OF THE SAINTS-Ps 89:7. WE LOVE HIM, BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US-1 Jn 4:19.

[ December 15, 2003, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

ProfessorNumber · 12-16-2003, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Percipere'Chan:
Professor Number:
So if it's ridiculous to get get into Heaven based on AcTivE's description of the requirements, what would you say in turn that they are? Or, what does being a good christian mean in your book? And another thing, if you haven't been a really good christian, why the fuck not? If you believe in the religion (to some degree or another) wouldn't it be it's own reward?[/QB]

I like to believe that there are several different ways of getting into heaven. If this makes me not-a-Christian in your eyes, then so be it. From a purely logical sense, it makes no sense for Heaven to be Christian-exclusive.

Transcendentalism stems from intuition and a sense of logic, basically stating that if something spiritual makes sense to you, then it's true. I choose to believe what life has lead me to believe, rather than follow something that makes absolutely no sense to me. I believe in the Christian God because of circumstances in my life that have lead me to the conclusion that God is present in my life. However, I'm leading us off on a tangent again. Sorry, I just felt it was necessary to explain where exactly I'm coming from.

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 01:27 AM

what are the other ways to get into heaven? and WHY would God let them into heaven because of those ways?

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 01:31 AM

About finished with my reply. Back in a sec.

ProfessorNumber · 12-16-2003, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
what are the other ways to get into heaven? and WHY would God let them into heaven because of those ways?

I prefer the idea of a loving God.

With that said, I believe an Athiest/Hindu/Buddhist who lives a morally correct life will go to Heaven. I've fucking said it a million times: If God denies 66% of the world from Heaven, then maybe I don't want to be a Christian. The very notion that God will send 66% of the world to Hell is repulsive, and if that is what Christianity encompasses, then count me out.

[ December 15, 2003, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: ProfessorNumber ]

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 01:36 AM

Does God determine if the person lived a morally correct life?

Let's say a morally correct life was a score of 70 (or more) out of 100.

Would God be a loving God if he sent a person with a 69 to hell?

Pliedes · 12-16-2003, 01:38 AM

[quote]Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:

Quote:

The very notion that God will send 66% of the world to Hell is repulsive, and if that is what Christianity encompasses, then count me out.

So, you're basing your beliefs on percentages? Talk about riding the fence. And you say you champion logic. If only 5% of people were worthy of getting into heaven, then only 5% of people should get into heaven.

ProfessorNumber · 12-16-2003, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
Does God determine if the person lived a morally correct life?

Let's say a morally correct life was a score of 70 (or more) out of 100.

Would God be a loving God if he sent a person with a 69 to hell?

I understand perfectly well what you are getting at. If someone kills 3 people and has no regret, then I somewhat doubt that he will go to Heaven. So where do you draw the line at? Well, I'm honestly not sure; but as my former pastor once said, "I think we'd be surprised to find out who all is in heaven".

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 01:42 AM

The message you are portraying here and what Jesus actually taught have already heartily diverged ways.

As to:
Jn 14:6-JESUS SAITH UNTO HIM, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.

You miss the point.

John 10:34 "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye Are Gods"?

John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Jesus Isn't Ever talking about himself in the way that you're convinced you're hearing it. You've completely missed his point. He's telling you that you have the potential to be just like him. You Are A God. You are a Part of God. Even the word "AM" has a completely different meaning than what you're taking it for. Am is a deep awareness in an overall pervading Existance of god everywhere. We Are All One. When Jesus is saying: John 10:7 "I am the door of the sheep" (for one small example) He's trying to communicate to the masses that there is a way of being that he is that you must also be in order to attain the benefit of his teachings.

AcTivE · 12-16-2003, 01:42 AM

Professor Number:

I do want an answer for an answer for that question...not just coming up with crap to say..

Pliedes · 12-16-2003, 01:45 AM

Quick question for all.

Person 1: Is a really great, traditionally moral person (along the lines of Ghandi, Mother Teresa) does all these great things for humanity, but doesn't even believe in God.

Person 2: Rapes and murders 23 people, but then repents and accepts Christ as his savior before he is put to death.

According to the bible, who goes to heaven?

ProfessorNumber · 12-16-2003, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pliedes:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:

Quote:

The very notion that God will send 66% of the world to Hell is repulsive, and if that is what Christianity encompasses, then count me out.

So, you're basing your beliefs on percentages? Talk about riding the fence. And you say you champion logic. If only 5% of people were worthy of getting into heaven, then only 5% of people should get into heaven.

As to the "percentages" allegations, yes, I am basing part of my beliefs on them. Tell me, is Asia going to Hell? I don't want to believe that, and I refuse to. In my mind what I believe is correct and logical, and I will keep doing so until I recieve some sort of divine intervention that convinces me otherwise.

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 01:47 AM

What ProfessorNumber is saying (I think we're on the same page here prof#) or rather asking is why in the world would a loving God (which is what JESUS ACTUALLY TEACHES) commit these other people no matter what their number to suffering in hellfire? That's the 'Sickness' that i've been refering to. I don't really need to be antagonist here but, just 'cause it's nubblies... THAT'S SOME FUCKING WARPED SHIT.

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 01:47 AM

JESUS NEVER SAYS THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HELL!!!

Percipere'Chan · 12-16-2003, 01:49 AM

Pli-
Who is going to hell:

According to people in the bible Minus Jesus:
Person number 2

According to JESUS
Person number 1

BigDongedHoe · 12-16-2003, 01:50 AM

[quote]Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:

Quote:

I like to believe that there are several different ways of getting into heaven. If this makes me not-a-Christian in your eyes, then so be it. From a purely logical sense, it makes no sense for Heaven to be Christian-exclusive.

Look at that statement and it sums up everything that is wrong: Your making judgements from your perspective, it's almost as if saying "I am God." The Bible (the word of God, the truth, and the only credible source to back up what people believe in) clearly states how it is you get into heaven. If God tells me that the only way to get into heaven is to accept him into my heart and to accept the fact that he sent his son to die on the cross for all mortal's sins then that is damn well what I believe.

Maybe there are different ways into heaven however none of them are stated in the bible. That is where christianity sets itself apart, it is the only religion where there are no outside influences. It is also the only religion where you don't have to raise yourself up to a higher level. In Christianity God came to us and we accept Jesus as our savior. Every other religion has some other means of getting to God or you have to lift yourself up onto another level. There are even some catholics that believe if your Baptized you will be in heaven.

I understand where you guys are coming from because I to sat in your shoes and said the same thing "I do not understand where a all loving god would deem people to hell who aren't that bad of people." That is so far from the point though, people want to look at it this way "what can God do for me" rather than "what can I do for God." We are here on earth to glorify God not to see what he can do for us. The bible clearly states that we will receive a new body in heaven for eternity.

I don't see how people can come up with their own beliefs on there "way" to heaven when the bible (the word of God) clearly states the way to heaven.

12-16-2003, 12:35 AM	#1 (permalink)
ProfessorNumber Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,215 Internets: 3373	Alright, stemming from precipitations stupid-ass Thread, the "Athiests Can go to heaven v 2.0, has been spawned. The original has been ruined by people going off on tangents. Let's keep this thread focused. To kick things off, I feel that many people misinterpreted my message in the original "Athiests can go to heaven" thread. My beliefs in God closely follow those of Transcendentalism. In the early 19th century, the Harvard-educated me such as Emerson began to read the scriptures of eastern religions, namely Hinduism and Buddhism. After doing so they examined their own religious assumptions against the scriptures of eastern religions. "In their perspective, a loving God would not have led so much of humanity astray; there must be truth in these scriptures, too." Truth, if it agreed with an individual's intuition of truth, must be indeed truth. Hence, I took that theory one step further resulting in my belief that Athiests are capable of getting into Heaven. Let me stress this fact: I believe in God. However, it seems completely illogical and counter-religious for God to turn his back on such a large amount of people; athiests included.
	Smoke a cigarette and lie some more -- These conversations kill.

12-16-2003, 12:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	In reply to this: ******** One simple question: Are hindus and Buddhists going to hell? ******** I don't know. According to my beliefs, you must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross, and rose from the dead to YOU [edit: oops! forgot important part]. If you are asking me, are they going to hell--according to Christianity? Again, I don't study hinduism or buddhism, my guess however is, yes, they will burn. [ December 15, 2003, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

12-16-2003, 12:47 AM	#3 (permalink)
Percipere'Chan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: My Machine Posts: 460 Internets: -238	Hey, up your's motherfucker. My thread did it's job. I got you shits thinking. 'Bout time somebody took a little initative. Now. Let's get down to business.
	Dead, death, grim on a pale horse, empty, hollow, inanimate, fataled, black curtained, annihilated.

12-16-2003, 12:54 AM	#5 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	Which God is it that you believe in?
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

12-16-2003, 01:12 AM	#9 (permalink)
Percipere'Chan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: My Machine Posts: 460 Internets: -238	We shall see. This is where it's going to get interesting.
	Dead, death, grim on a pale horse, empty, hollow, inanimate, fataled, black curtained, annihilated.

12-16-2003, 01:15 AM	#10 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	I found this on website layed out: 1. Admit you are a sinner. The Bible tells us, ALL HAVE SINNED, AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD-Ro 3:23. THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH-Ro 6:23. 2. Be willing to change, to forsake all sin, and live for Jesus. Repent. Be willing to ask God for His help, to help you make that change. The Bible tells us, EXCEPT YE REPENT, YE SHALL ALL LIKEWISE PERISH-Lk 13:3. WHOSOEVER THEREFORE WILL BE A FRIEND OF THE WORLD IS THE ENEMY OF GOD-Ja 4:4. Jesus tells us, HE THAT IS NOT WITH ME IS AGAINST ME-Mt 12:30. 3. Believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is God’s only begotten Son and that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Believe that He died for your sins. Believe on Jesus Christ as your only hope of salvation. As it is written, THERE IS NONE OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED-Acts 4:12. If we rob a bank, we have to go to jail. Jesus never sinned. When He died on the cross, He did not die for the things He did. He died to pay your jail sentence. 4. Ask for forgiveness. Ask for God’s mercy. By faith, receive Jesus Christ as your only hope of being saved and do not be ashamed. Confess Him openly as your only hope of salvation. As it is written, <font size="5">BE READY ALWAYS TO GIVE AN ANSWER TO EVERY MAN THAT ASKETH YOU A REASON OF THE HOPE THAT IS IN YOU WITH MEEKNESS AND FEAR-1 Pe 3:15</font>. [img]smile.gif[/img] The Bible tells us, GOD IS GREATLY TO BE FEARED IN THE ASSEMBLY OF THE SAINTS-Ps 89:7. WE LOVE HIM, BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US-1 Jn 4:19. [ December 15, 2003, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

12-16-2003, 01:27 AM	#12 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	what are the other ways to get into heaven? and WHY would God let them into heaven because of those ways?
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

12-16-2003, 01:31 AM	#13 (permalink)
Percipere'Chan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: My Machine Posts: 460 Internets: -238	About finished with my reply. Back in a sec.
	Dead, death, grim on a pale horse, empty, hollow, inanimate, fataled, black curtained, annihilated.

12-16-2003, 01:36 AM	#15 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	Does God determine if the person lived a morally correct life? Let's say a morally correct life was a score of 70 (or more) out of 100. Would God be a loving God if he sent a person with a 69 to hell?
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

12-16-2003, 01:42 AM	#18 (permalink)
Percipere'Chan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: My Machine Posts: 460 Internets: -238	The message you are portraying here and what Jesus actually taught have already heartily diverged ways. As to: Jn 14:6-JESUS SAITH UNTO HIM, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME. You miss the point. John 10:34 "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye Are Gods"? John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Jesus Isn't Ever talking about himself in the way that you're convinced you're hearing it. You've completely missed his point. He's telling you that you have the potential to be just like him. You Are A God. You are a Part of God. Even the word "AM" has a completely different meaning than what you're taking it for. Am is a deep awareness in an overall pervading Existance of god everywhere. We Are All One. When Jesus is saying: John 10:7 "I am the door of the sheep" (for one small example) He's trying to communicate to the masses that there is a way of being that he is that you must also be in order to attain the benefit of his teachings.
	Dead, death, grim on a pale horse, empty, hollow, inanimate, fataled, black curtained, annihilated.

12-16-2003, 01:42 AM	#19 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	Professor Number: I do want an answer for an answer for that question...not just coming up with crap to say..
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

12-16-2003, 01:45 AM	#20 (permalink)
Pliedes Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 4,594 Internets: 1608	Quick question for all. Person 1: Is a really great, traditionally moral person (along the lines of Ghandi, Mother Teresa) does all these great things for humanity, but doesn't even believe in God. Person 2: Rapes and murders 23 people, but then repents and accepts Christ as his savior before he is put to death. According to the bible, who goes to heaven?

12-16-2003, 01:47 AM	#22 (permalink)
Percipere'Chan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: My Machine Posts: 460 Internets: -238	What ProfessorNumber is saying (I think we're on the same page here prof#) or rather asking is why in the world would a loving God (which is what JESUS ACTUALLY TEACHES) commit these other people no matter what their number to suffering in hellfire? That's the 'Sickness' that i've been refering to. I don't really need to be antagonist here but, just 'cause it's nubblies... THAT'S SOME FUCKING WARPED SHIT.
	Dead, death, grim on a pale horse, empty, hollow, inanimate, fataled, black curtained, annihilated.

12-16-2003, 01:47 AM	#23 (permalink)
Percipere'Chan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: My Machine Posts: 460 Internets: -238	JESUS NEVER SAYS THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HELL!!!
	Dead, death, grim on a pale horse, empty, hollow, inanimate, fataled, black curtained, annihilated.

12-16-2003, 01:49 AM	#24 (permalink)
Percipere'Chan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: My Machine Posts: 460 Internets: -238	Pli- Who is going to hell: According to people in the bible Minus Jesus: Person number 2 According to JESUS Person number 1
	Dead, death, grim on a pale horse, empty, hollow, inanimate, fataled, black curtained, annihilated.