General Right-Wing Fuckery.

[Mr. Blonde]

Make a liberal thread if you wish. This article is great, and mostly about the Tea Party. (this is different than the Crazy Teabaggers thread, in that it's a serious critique of the entire political right in general.)

Our Long National Nightmare Isn't Over, It's Just Beginning | CommonDreams.org

Looking at the rhetoric the right throws in the direction of our president these days, questioning his very nationality (oh, did I mention that he's black?), it's easy to see that they‘ve gone completely over the line. But what's really out of control is what lies underneath this insanity generated for the consumption of an ignorant hoi polloi. And what that is - what you see when you move the slime-infested rock away - is an unfathomably monstrous greed. Watching these folks in action, you could easily get the impression that they had been impoverished their whole lives. That they had been denied everything, right down to food and water. That they had been deprived through poverty especially of their dignity. You know, like the real poor people of this world, the forty or fifty percent of the Earth's population that survives on less than two dollars per day. Those folks.

Instead, we are talking about people who are already fantastically rich. And who, despite this, are absolutely hell-bent on getting richer, even if that means depriving hundreds of millions of people in the American middle class of their middle classness, and in many cases, ultimately of their lives. How do we explain people like this? Are they not essentially sociopathic? Are they not made of essentially the same stuff as those who can kill without guilt or remorse? Especially when you consider that even the greediest among us reach a limit beyond which one can effectively make use of the next dollar and the one beyond that, so that pushing others into poverty is no longer even for purposes of your own benefit, but instead for some kind of sick sport? Aren't these the characters whose essential sickness preachers and philosophers and shrinks have been trying to sort out for millennia?

[DJ FC]

The writer of that article is both ignorant and a fear-monger. But he writes pretty so fools will quote him.

[Mr. Blonde]

Predictable.

[Mr. Blonde]

Covert Operations --The billionaire brothers who are waging a war against Obama.


This article has been huge in the past week.

[DDTempest]

Originally Posted by DJ FC

The writer of that article is both ignorant and a fear-monger. But he writes pretty so fools will quote him.

What is he ignorant on? Just curious, I am not as much in "the know" as you or Blonde seem to be and am curious what exactly he is throwing out wrongly.

[DJ FC]

Lots of people (including myself) and the most respected people on the right-wing want less government and lower taxes not to impoverish, but to create wealth for EVERYBODY. Money isn't a good. It's a token which says you've created value for somebody else without taking goods or services from them (yet).

[Mr. Blonde]

What do you have to say in regard to governmental regulation of industry, mostly because of said fuckery? It's much easier for me to believe (being the easily impressed fool that I am) that the concept of a government, at the heart of it, has better intentions for the health and goodwill of the public than a purely profit-based large corporation. , there are exceptions on both sides of the argument, but it seems to me (especially in European countries) that governments are generally benevolent institutions, or should be, if it wasn't for our greedy motherfucking species. And while there is definitely greed and power-mongering in politics, that kind of attitude is MUCH more prevalent in the kind of right wing corporate mindset you seem to be praising to high heavens as socially philanthropic by "creating wealth" by...by what, exactly? Cherry picked charitable donations and minimum wage jobs offered at the lowest end of the class structure?

[DJ FC]

Government employees are (in my mind) so much more likely to be corrupt and malevolant than self-serving industrialists it makes my heart ache a little to hear you suggest otherwise.

[Mr. Blonde]

Well, your ilk seems to think governments are the evil ones and mine thinks corporations are. What would you say (at it's very base, regardless of how fucked the U.S. system currently is) is the purpose of a government, versus the purpose of any for-profit-company?

[thekremlin]

I think you're both missing the point. It doesn't matter who is more benevolent. The point is that individuals should not be asked to be benevolent, because quite frankly, they won't. A succesful society will be one in which people who help "the tribe" will be rewarded... and the inventor of the iPhone gets paid the big bucks because he has invented something that everyone wants. No one in this equation is being a nice guy, but everyone gets what they want. The point that FC always misses, though, is the causality: he thinks just because someone gets paid for something, it is a good thing they are doing. This would be true in a perfect world but to think it is true in this one means you think that there is no friction in government. I don't think anyone thinks that.

[DJ FC]

The purpose of government is to be re-elected.

The purpose of a for-profit-company is profit.

At least the 2nd can often be honest.

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by thekremlin

I think you're both missing the point. It doesn't matter who is more benevolent. The point is that individuals should not be asked to be benevolent, because quite frankly, they won't. A succesful society will be one in which people who help "the tribe" will be rewarded... and the inventor of the iPhone gets paid the big bucks because he has invented something that everyone wants. No one in this equation is being a nice guy, but everyone gets what they want. The point that FC always misses, though, is the causality: he thinks just because someone gets paid for something, it is a good thing they are doing. This would be true in a perfect world but to think it is true in this one means you think that there is no friction in government. I don't think anyone thinks that.

I'm not arguing all the time.

Just most of it.

[Ugly Bastard]

I liked that article a lot. It was ranty and melodramtatic, but perfectly summed up how I feel about both sides of the current political spectrum. Also, agree with kremlin about someone getting paid for something not necessarily meaning they did a good thing for humanity. I'm increasingly learning/realizing that this isn't the case nearly as much as FC-types would like to think.

[DDTempest]

Originally Posted by DJ FC

The purpose of government is to be re-elected.

The purpose of a for-profit-company is profit.

At least the 2nd can often be honest.

The purpose for the leaders of any for-profit-company is to be "reelected" by not getting fired. The only difference between governments and corporations is the efficiency in which they can act and the people they represent. Governments are forced to include the poor amongst their interests, but corporations already have a bar in place (stock) to keep the poor from having a staked interest in their actions.

Now you'll surely tell me that anyone can buy stock in a company, and I'll preemptively point out that only the rich can afford a stake in a company that will be substantial enough to be acknowledged.

[thekremlin]

Originally Posted by DDTempest

Now you'll surely tell me that anyone can buy stock in a company, and I'll preemptively point out that only the rich can afford a stake in a company that will be substantial enough to be acknowledged.

Well that's just not true.

[DDTempest]

Originally Posted by thekremlin

Well that's just not true.

Please explain how I am incorrect here? I am eager to suckle from your bosom of knowledge on this matter so that I can grow out of my infantile point of view.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by DJ FC

The writer of that article is both ignorant and a fear-monger. But he writes pretty so fools will quote him.

Precisely; people making money does not make people poor.

Go live in a fucking commune if you don't like people making money.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by DDTempest

Please explain how I am incorrect here? I am eager to suckle from your bosom of knowledge on this matter so that I can grow out of my infantile point of view.

Find a smaller company.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by thekremlin

The point that FC always misses, though, is the causality: he thinks just because someone gets paid for something, it is a good thing they are doing. This would be true in a perfect world but to think it is true in this one means you think that there is no friction in government. I don't think anyone thinks that.

How does somebody get paid? Through mutual exchange. Why does mutual exchange happen? Because people are self interested and will exchange money or product if they believe they are increasing their self interest, which means the person getting paid "did something good" for the person that paid them.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

Covert Operations --The billionaire brothers who are waging a war against Obama.


This article has been huge in the past week.

Good, they are fighting for the betterment of mankind.

[Beebs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

but it seems to me (especially in European countries) that governments are generally benevolent institutions, or should be, if it wasn't for our greedy motherfucking species

Where do they get the money to be "benevolent" with? Why are they all going broke? What good does that do for mankind? Who pays for them to run up huge deficits and go Greek?

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by DDTempest

The purpose for the leaders of any for-profit-company is to be "reelected" by not getting fired. The only difference between governments and corporations is the efficiency in which they can act and the people they represent. Governments are forced to include the poor amongst their interests, but corporations already have a bar in place (stock) to keep the poor from having a staked interest in their actions.

Not true. A government job is black or white - you have it or you don't with most advancement based on seniority not on merit.

Governments have piss-poor performance incentives. While performance incentives (such as stock bonuses) for private corporations are far from perfect, at least they exist in the private sector. I would love if it were possible for the most efficient government employees to earn a much higher wage than their inefficient, wasteful, and malevolent counterparts. But alas that would be a corrupt system indeed. The answer, it seems, is to have as many private jobs and as few government jobs (a necessary evil) where possible.

[Der Fuhrer]

The leftist fucks would rather everyone be equally poor than unequally rich. Those "fantastically rich" soulless individuals got to where they are through much hard work and sacrifice. Those that are dirt poor probably made a lot of bad choices in life. If one does not feel the wolf biting at their ass, what's the point in running?

[f3lix]

Originally Posted by Der Fuhrer

If one does not feel the wolf biting at their ass, what's the point in running?

Beautiful

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally Posted by Beebs

How does somebody get paid? Through mutual exchange. Why does mutual exchange happen? Because people are self interested and will exchange money or product if they believe they are increasing their self interest, which means the person getting paid "did something good" for the person that paid them.

This is such an idealist viewpoint. I used to hold the same belief. Then I started opening my eyes to things like con-artists and government spending. You're too smart to regurgitate standard rightists points, Beebs.