An Open Letter to Staunch Conservative, Capitalist Thinking

[Ugly Bastard]

Was just thinking about how 80% of the world's resources are consumed by 20% of its people and other various granola thoughts like that. Something occurred to me about capitalists and the capitalist, "to each his own" viewpoint. I don't think I have a problem with it as long as the believers of that form of American social religion also look at these granola facts and feel frustration and sadness over them too. There's a big difference between feeling for these inequities that we should all feel for and strive to correct them and thinking that capitalism is the best approach to solving that problem and simply not caring about the problem because you're too blinded by capitalism.

[DJ FC]

It may always be the case that 20% eat more pie than the rest. Whether 80% is reasonable or not is to be debated.

The capitalist argument is this:

Currently we have an Apple Pie with 10 Apples.

The wealthy 20% are eating 8 of these apples. But at the same time they are kicking some major ass to make that Apple Pie grow. In 10 years or so the Apple Pie should be 100 apples. The poor 80% now have 20 apples instead of 2.

More likely, however, is that the poor get something like 60 of the Apples and the wealthy get 40. But instead of just having a 100 apple pie, the hard workers have now invented a blueberry pie. And this blueberry pie is so highly prized that 1 of them is worth 10 100 apple pies. Just because it's new and revolutionary.

You see: In a system which rewards the creation of wealth you may always have dis equality, but you will have a bigger pie to split. In the 2nd scenario you see how technology and valuation are not straight forward. How do you value resources? Basic resources like food, shelter, water, etc. are largely completely available for the entire world now (with some very serious exceptions, of course), and so they are valued lower. The wealthy consume "resources" like viagra and end-of-life care which on paper are vastly more costly.

The communists built their entire system on the belief that it wasn't right for 20% to consume 80%, and they did shift consumption to a much more fair level: but their pie never got bigger.

And finally: yes, philanthropy and capitalism go hand-in-hand. True capitalists believe that a government shouldn't mandate charity, but that individuals should definitely help the less fortunate in the most efficient manner and as they see fit.

[angry pancake]

I kinda agree with FC. I'll just add that the playing field isn't always level though. Sometimes there are things that happen that prevent someone from growing apple trees. I'm not sure, but I think UB is saying that those who have the apples have to share their apples with the other 80 percent. When the 20 percent hoard the apples and too many of the 80 percenters don't have an apple at all, the situation can get volatile and concerns over the apple cart tipping become fears.

Communism didn't take life because there were plenty of apples for everyone and all were satisfied. Alternatives to capitalism are likely to occur when conditions for the appleless become desperate and are willing to try anything else.

But by and large I really do agree with FC. I don't think capitalism is perfect. But the pragmatist in me really thinks it's by far better than any alternative.

[DDTempest]

Originally Posted by DJ FC

The wealthy 20% are eating 8 of these apples. But at the same time they are kicking some major ass to make that Apple Pie grow. In 10 years or so the Apple Pie should be 100 apples. The poor 80% now have 20 apples instead of 2.

For the poor, they still don't get 20 apples, they are still getting the original 2 ... and the rich is dividing into the still super rich (getting 70 apples) and the "just kinda rich" getting the other 28. This is where poor people are falling off the bandwagon of trickle down economics.

[thekremlin]

Also, it sure would be nice if the poor people could have some money, instead of apples. Then they could have a more varied diet, if they wanted.

[angry pancake]

Originally Posted by thekremlin

Also, it sure would be nice if the poor people could have some money, instead of apples. Then they could have a more varied diet, if they wanted.

It takes a lot of time, apples, and luck to get blueberries. But these poor fucks need to give up the tomatoes and get a job.

[Ugly Bastard]

Wealth is created by labor. By manual labor (taking the shit around us and turning it into more useful shit) or by intellectual labor (seeing new ways to use shit or new shit to make). Capitalism is not a system of wealth creation but of wealth ownership. It is not the most efficient creator of wealth, merely the most effective privatizer of wealth.

In our present system, the owners of wealth and the creators of wealth are separate entities. Certainly there are innovative, creative owners who make substantial contributions to wealth creation but they are a minority. By and large, you simply have wealth owning the means of production of wealth and in no way contributing to its creation.

Wealth does not create wealth, labor creates wealth. Labor is wealth. Private ownership actually hinders wealth creation. Just look around. Labor is disincentivised. People are less productive than they can be because they don't give a fuck. They have no reason to give a fuck. Owners of wealth are destroying wealth by wasting labor.

Capitalism's goal is not maximum wealth creation. It's goal is merely maximum wealth creation for the owner.

[DJ FC]

Financiers allocate capital to where it best generates wealth. They have a profit motive to do so. The wealth holders have a profit motive to allow the financiers to allocate this capital.

When capital is properly allocated, the creators of new wealth do what they do best - create.

Edit: Basically what I'm saying is that capital allocation itself is a very high-level form of wealth creation.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

Wealth does not create wealth, labor creates wealth. Labor is wealth. Private ownership actually hinders wealth creation. Just look around. Labor is disincentivised. People are less productive than they can be because they don't give a fuck. They have no reason to give a fuck. Owners of wealth are destroying wealth by wasting labor.

Can somebody address this?

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

I work because I want to redistribute my earnings to people who don't work.

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard

Just look around. Labor is disincentivised. People are less productive than they can be because they don't give a fuck. They have no reason to give a fuck.

I guess, specifically, this. It's like in Office Space (which obviously isn't the case for everybody, as some of you have made it clear your thoughts of poor African Americans etc.):

The thing is, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care. It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation? ...So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled, that and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.

Say all you want about work ethic, but it's easy to say that when you've (likely) been one of the lucky few to actually have been rewarded for doing hard work at a job.

[Ironic Mustache]

Originally Posted by angry pancake

I kinda agree with FC. I'll just add that the playing field isn't always level though. Sometimes there are things that happen that prevent someone from growing apple trees. I'm not sure, but I think UB is saying that those who have the apples have to share their apples with the other 80 percent. When the 20 percent hoard the apples and too many of the 80 percenters don't have an apple at all, the situation can get volatile and concerns over the apple cart tipping become fears.

^^ Yup. Now, let's hear the backlash, honkies.

[DJ FC]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

Can somebody address this?

I tried to.

What I mean is this:

It's not enough to lift a lever, or dig a hole. Or even get a bright idea. Humans and tools work together. And humans work with other humans.

Tools are capital, and profit motivates humans.

People do not work on their own accord, they need a profit motive.

The profit motive is what makes the businessman sell stock in the open market to raise funds to build an apple pie factory. His borrowed money allows the pie bakers and apple slicers to all do their jobs. The allocation of resources, in this case, has created wealth that otherwise would not have been, because a man cannot efficiently slice apples on an industrial scale without an apple pie factory.

How does the business man get the money in the first place? He gets it from the wealthy who think that investing in an apple pie factory is a good idea. Theese greedy, profit motivated people, have looked at all their investment opportunities and have decided that the apple pie business is the place where they can profit most - which is a very damn good proxy for value created for society. Remember, these greedy, rich people chose to invest in the apple pie factory and not the banana pie factory. Banana pies aren't as highly valued to society so people wouldn't pay as much for them - which means less profit for the businessman running the factory, which means less dividends paid to the greedy, rich investors.

They chose the apple factory instead of the banana factory because there was more profit. It's easy to forget how amazingly important this choice was for the economy as a whole. Now we have highly valued apple pies instead of less valued banana pies. Which is a huge win for the economy - in effect it's the investor class that, through profit motive, gives society what it needs.

[thekremlin]

WTF is a banana factory and where can I invest in one?

[angry pancake]

See FC, that the problem. The 80% just want apples. The 20% are fucking wasting apples making pie. They're fucking making pie! They're making pies and using up all the apples. Goddam bakers.

[Mr. Blonde]

How did the wealthy investors get their money?

[thekremlin]

That is bigtime FC bait.

[Mr. Blonde]

I'm not trying to bait anybody. I know some people work very hard to be where they are and deserve their jobs and the income that comes with it. I have known FC for a long time and know that he probably didn't have any unfair advantages.

But from the bottom, it seems like a lot of these people have family money. It's just in the mindset. I know people who are so completely in their own income-bracket-bubble that they can't understand why it is so hard for people to be successful who don't have family money . A very close friend regularly relates to me her troubles with "how to invest the capital her family gave her" when she leaves Korea while I'm worried about finding transportation, a job, and place to live when I go back.

[thekremlin]

WAH WAH WAH

[thekremlin]

I apologize for the previous post.

[DJ FC]

The Pie is Getting Bigger.
Allocating Resources is a Way the Wealthy Make the Pie Bigger.

I'm finished with this thread.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

DJ FC is finished with this thread. I'm locking it before things get out of hand. Any new threads regarding this topic will be deleted and the creator will be looking at a 3 day temp ban.

[DDTempest]

Originally Posted by Mr. Mistoffelees

DJ FC is finished with this thread. I'm locking it before things get out of hand. Any new threads regarding this topic will be deleted and the creator will be looking at a 3 day temp ban.

Like all regulations regarding financial crimes, I would dare say that this will not be enforced.

[angry pancake]

I never liked pie anyway.

[Ironic Mustache]

Originally Posted by angry pancake

I never liked pie anyway.

Fag.