Who is going to hell? An argument for the Bible, Religion and God.

[Mr. Blonde]

While this is definitely a fucking tragedy, I absolutely love that he already has the foresight to cast away any possible reports of him "finding god" on his deathbed, a lie i'm sure millions of Christians would love to spread about him posthumously. This is being posted around everywhere:

[Hitchens] said he will never become religious despite his looming mortality. If any such conversion is ever attributed to him, he said, it would be either a lie propagated by the religious community or an effect of the cancer and treatment that made him no longer himself.

[Ugly Bastard]

Question:

Do you think there is a way to get people to stop believing in their religion? Pretend for a moment that religion is a vice like alcoholism (which I believe it is), what methods might be effective in bringing about a cessation in those religious beliefs?

[ninjaface]

I think that it depends on the person, much like drug addicts and their addictions. It's pretty easy for me to take the premise of the A&E show "Intervention" and replace drugs with religion.

[Mr. Blonde]

I've been thinking a lot lately about how I deal with people when it comes to religion and for starters, I am trying to make an effort not to come off as such an elitist dick about it. Regardless of how hilarious and awesome it is to totally destroy the shit out of somebody, it's really not about my ego, it's about helping other humans understand how to think rationally and logically about not just religion, but about everything.

I feel like the sooner humans stop believing that their is an afterlife and they're going to have everlasting eternal salvation after they die, the more meaningful they will make their lives. I'd like to think they will educate themselves more. Take better care of the planet. Try to discover more to life than getting married and having kids, repeat process. This is probably way too optimistic of me. But it worked for me.

But no, for the most part, I really don't think there is a way. I think that even if they halfway don't believe it, most of them will cling on to it for most of their lives.

[Mr. Blonde]

Just watched this: very related.

Phil Plait - Don't Be A Dick on Vimeo

Phil Plait - Don't Be A Dick on Vimeo

[Mr. Blonde]

I've been spending a lot of time researching Islam lately, and while i'm still far from a religious sympathizer, researching it has given me a much broader understanding of the religion. This needs to be done on a much wider scale, judging by this Facebook convo I just had with a girl I mostly regard as pretty smart.


Ingrid
sorry
having trouble keeping up with chats in 3 different locations
but one point -
christianity isn't only about personal salvation
it's very much a code about how to live your life
a moral code

12:46amMe
as is islam
as is buddhism
as is judaism

12:47amIngrid
islam is all about the afterlife

12:47amMe
as are many of the writings of the greeks, predating the bible
Ingrid, no it is not.
it's a lot about community cohesion and living in the style of the prophet while one is here.
Christianity is MUCH more focused on the afterlife.
that's the main reason they hold over peoples heads to live a "moral" life.

12:48amIngrid
I disagree

12:48amMe
"if you don't, you will go to hell"

12:48amIngrid
that's the baptist line
and if you don't follow the way of allah, you won't get your 40 virigins

12:48amMe
Well, it would do you good to read up a lot more about Islam. Almost everything i've heard from you is perpetuated stereotypes
like that one.
that's such a small part of Islam.

12:49amIngrid
I've read some of the quran

12:50amMe
and not even believed by many Muslims, in the sense that the west purports it

12:50amIngrid
I was required to take religion classes
which book did u read?
ps?

12:51amMe
a short history of Islam by Karen Armstrong is the book i've most recently read. On top of the entire wiki article and other sources dealing with islam

12:52amMe
to dismiss an entire religion of over a billion people as a bunch of heathens (and I know you didn't use that word) obsessed with 72 (not 40) virgins is unfair.
quote: Margaret Nydell states that mainstream Muslims regard this belief about 72 virgins in the same way that mainstream Christians regard the belief that after death they will be issued with wings and a harp, and walk on clouds

12:53amIngrid
u were dismissing the an entire religion that it's main purpose to teach people how to not go to hell
so there

12:53amMe
i didn't say that was it's main purpose

12:53amIngrid
u did

12:53amMe
I said it's one of it's biggest tenet's and focal points.

12:53amIngrid
u said that it's more about personal salvation
and I said

12:53amMe
Okay Ingrid. Why should I act moral. According to the Bible.
Because I assure you, the answer to "why should I abide by the Qur'an" is not "so i can get 72 virgins!!!"

12:54amIngrid
but it's the same concept
to assure an afterlife

12:54amMe
you didn't answer my question

12:54amIngrid
and they are most certainly considering that

12:54amMe
it's not
it's part of it

12:55amIngrid
or they wouldn't be suicide bomging

12:55amMe
but not most of it.

12:55amIngrid
*bombing

12:55amMe
that's such a small percentage of muslims Ingrid.
don't be this person.
what does the Olympic bomber say about Christianity?
Eric Robert Rudolph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

12:55amIngrid
it's a small majority of the loyal muslims
christians condem
n him

12:56amMe
Christian terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
lol what
and muslims don't condemn the 9/11 attacks?
The vast majority, indeed, does

12:57amIngrid
then why do they sit there and allow it to happen?

12:58amMe
Who is "they"? Why do Christians sit around and let the "Gods Hate Fags" guys protest soldier funerals?

12:58amIngrid
let's not compare hate speech with blowing people up
and they do something about it
some areas put laws and regualtions in place to keep them from protesting
withint a certain radius
and on top of that
the US is a secular govt
and therefore not a christian govt
and therefore not the same situation

1:00amMe
Most Islamic governments to not openly endorse suicide bombing non-believers.
Part of being a martyr is in the Qur'an, yes, but not all Muslims take part in it. Very few do Just like not all Christians take part in the barbarism of the Bible.

Me
i'm not saying either religion is right or wrong, although my personal belief is that they are equally invalid and people can live morally without religion
i do it every day
But Islam is not inherently evil just because of a few bad eggs. And so what if their version of heaven differs from Christians with the "virgins" thing. Christians want to get there just as bad.
Islam developed in a much more different way than Christianity did, which is why there is more of a focus on martyrdom. But it doesn't make them evil.

[Dent]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

But Islam is not inherently evil just because of a few bad eggs.

Islam is inherently evil because the Quran (which is 100% the word of god and must be obeyed) preaches hatred and murder.
Some of the things you could argue are just 'differences in culture' like how they treat women, but instructing muslims to kill anyone for a multitude of reasons? I don't see how that can be justified.

I think the only nice muslims are the ones that have adapted the Quran to fit in with modern day values, same goes with christians. but that doesn't mean that at the heart of it is a religion created for war

[Mr. Blonde]

Agreed, and that is what I meant in regard to the development of Islam. It's very heart is based around conquest. But that brings an interesting philosophical question:

Is all war evil?

[Der Fuhrer]

I refuse to believe in a god who deals only in absolutes (i.e. all religious dieties). Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

I don't know what compelled me to say that, just a thought that came to mind that I found somewhat humorous.

Good call on correcting Ingrid's incorrect statement about 40 celestial virgins.

Fun fact about Islam, a muslim man is rewarded 72 celestial virgins while his wife is almost certainly doomed to hell. Unless of course her husband chooses to relinquish one of his celestial virgins in order for his wife to take their place (or more depending on how many of his wives the man wishes to save). The irony in this is that, in Islam, a man is the savior of a woman's soul.

[Mr. Blonde]

I just used that sith quote in a website interview yesterday (shameless brag). It's a great quote.

[zebrazebrazebraSHAFT]

Interesting: S. Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe

[Mr. Blonde]

I saw that, and my first thought was -- "this seems a bit obvious and unnecessary from Stephen Hawking". This was a message I sent to a friend who sent it to me:

It's just tabloid media sensationalism, mostly. Most people and scientists who study advanced forms of biology, physics and astronomy already figure this out relatively early on in their studies. What I figure, with this and his extremely dumbed-down-for-TV show earlier this year (Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking), and the fact that he retired as Lucasian math professor at Cambridge last year, is that he's just bored and wants to fuck with everybody during his last years. That's what I'd do.

The article I attached (Hawking: Aliens may pose risks to Earth - Technology & science - Space - msnbc.com) kinda highlights this a bit. I mean, clearly, he's one of the smartest people who have lived in our time, but sensationalist, pointless media-driven statements like this aren't really science -- they're a mixture of scientific hypotheses/theories (very different) and personal opinion. I reckon this kind of press coverage is mostly just to promote his new book, which, what do you know, is linked at the bottom of the article and being released next week! :-D

That's not to say he doesn't have good reason to state this opinion, as I obviously agree with it and have put a lot more study into religion, astronomy and physics than many believers, but it doesn't mean it's scientifically provable there is no god, which is really what's important to me. Mainly so humans can realize that they're not just here to bide their time until the sweet rapture of afterlife, but that they should make the most of it while they are here, rather than wasting their lives in church and fantasy lands. We should be making the world a better place to live for the future, not raping it because we know we're going to get a new, infinite playground when we die.

What is ALSO important, however, is that there has never been ANY scientific proof WHATSOEVER EVER of anything "god" related. Period. Not only that, the evidence is OVERWHELMINGLY in the direction that he very likely does not exist. I mean, just like he says in the article. The universe works fine without him. It's only a matter of time before "God" has no more gaps to hide in. Right now he has the cause of the big bang and the cause of life. Neither of which are even remotely provable by science yet, let alone religion.

That is why I do not believe.

Bottom line, I doubt too many people (unfortunately) who are super religious is really going to care that Hawking made this statement. I mean, just read the comments of the article. I also don't know too many religious folks who regularly keep up with astronomy, cosmology and physics as is.

EDIT: I know the telegraph isn't technically a tabloid (is it?), but with the short length of this story and the way it was published, it kinda seems like one.

[zebrazebrazebraSHAFT]

Yeah those were my thoughts too when I saw the title "Hawking changes views on God", sensationalism ever?

'God is not necessary for a big bang trigger': the statement carries more weight coming from Hawking but it is most likely a plug for his new book, which will probably contain more significant insight into recent ideas about the nature of gravity wrt the big bang.

[Mr. Blonde]

Clay Farris Naff: Stephen Hawking to God: Your Services Are No Longer Needed; God to Hawking: You So Don't Get Who I Am

[Beebs]

[Ugly Bastard]

I feel like Christians view religion as a story that's being read to them at bedtime.

[Mr. Blonde]

That's exactly what it feels like, especially from a young age. Bible camp and youth group, etc. It's all fun and games and stories about valor and leadership, until you're BURNING IN FUCKING HELL FOR SINNING

[Mr. Blonde]

One of my old co-workers is one of the smartest believers I have ever met. He is (was, i don't think he has time anymore, he's doing PHD work I think) a pastor, and at a very young age has been just as driven to find answers about religion as I have...although he has gone quite a different direction. He's 33 I think and has two masters degrees, in Philosophy and Religious studies...I think. But keep in mind, I think both of these were attained at a seminary. He was the one to lend me two books on evolution: "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Dawkins, which I posted about in Repugs book thread, and "Why Evolution is True", by Jerry Coyne, which i'm very close to finishing.

We have discussions on facebook regularly, it's actually a really healthy mental relationship. I don't think i'll ever convince him to come to my side, and I likely won't ever come around to his, but it's fun and keeps me on my toes. He's not a traditional, dumb Christian like we make fun of a lot in here, and he disagrees with much of the institutional policies, but still very much believes in god and the teachings of Christ. He's one of, if not the only Christian I have ever truly intellectually respected. Here is one of them we're working on right now.

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Dangerous bacterium hosts genetic remnant of life's distant past

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde

it's actually a really healthy mental relationship.

gay

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally Posted by Mr. Mistoffelеes

My coworker's wife died last week, I got drunk with him, we cuddled and eventually made out. Don't judge.

.

[Orgazmo]

It's hardly fair to use an imposter's words against him.

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

Frankly, I should report you to the admins.

[Mr. Blonde]

[Mr. Blonde]

Holding the Catholic Church accountable for its crimes. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine

@Dent, FC, Kremlin, are there any protests scheduled against his visit?

BBC News - Taxpayers should not fund Pope's visit, says survey

[THEINCREDIBLEdork]

Seriously bro, sucks to have to pay for something you don't agree with. Good thing we still got right to protest.