Who is going to hell? An argument for the Bible, Religion and God. - Nubblies.net Forums

AcTivE · 05-03-2005, 03:22 AM

This year I've read a variety of different things which has prompted me to have an interest in reading the Bible from a different perspective than I have before.

I want to start this thread because I would like to create an argument against what I have to say. Please do not post if you are not going to make any attempt to follow the argument. I would love to have someone find flaw in my reasoning, and hopefully create an interesting debate.

Once again, if this is something that doesn't interest you, then please don't fuck it up with your shitty posts.

I am not going to begin by writing a super long thread stating what I believe--but rather will begin with saying,

Why should I not base my beliefs of the Bible? Or would you say--there is no reason not to?

and it begins [img]graemlins/dance.gif[/img]

the Butcher · 05-03-2005, 03:29 AM

the reason that you shouldn't base your beliefs off of the bible is because of how flawed and inaccurate it is. the bible was composed from the hand of man, therefore it is capable of errors. although christians could say that the bible is the living word of god, we have no proof to show us that god himself influenced/created/inspired it. to base your beliefs off of a book written nearly 2000 years ago would be quite silly, seeing that nearly everything is different in this present-day environment.

AcTivE · 05-03-2005, 03:32 AM

Do you believe that in order to create something--that you must become it?

What I mean is, nothing that has ever been invented, has come into existence without someone first realizing the possibility, and then bringing it about to be?

Alright..I'm sure you probably do.

Now, if you believe in a God, something that can "save" you...how would he ever send a message to you?

After the world was created, and then sin...God could not just create something perfect in an imperfect world...agreed? Freewill chose sin, so "salvation" has to be found after encountering sin. If God were to just make everything perfect again--our freewill would choose sin, without prior knowledge of what imperfection is. Follow that? This to me seems to be a pretty sound argument, if you disagree with that, tell me and I'll clarify why it has to be true.

So after man sinned, we were imperfect. We can not be perfect--agreed? Now God, is perfect. How can he understand the position of a sinner, if he is without sin? God would first have to "forget" that he is without sin, and become the sinner. I believe the people that wrote the Bible, are people who realized a Truth, or realized the importance of an event, so recorded it.

I believe the only way for God to send a message to us--is to show us understanding...agreed?

[ May 03, 2005, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

ProfessorNumber · 05-03-2005, 12:04 PM

How many years has it been since the bible was written?

How many different versions of the bible are there? Which one is translated correctly, without using superlatives and exaggerations where they weren't originally?

Also, how did the bible come together? I know it has many different sections done by different people, but how did all those sections get put together? As Butcher pointed out, it was written by man, and that leaves room for errors and manipulations.

Ironic Mustache · 05-03-2005, 02:04 PM

I think only one of the apostles was even literate. Jesus is a trick biznatch.

05-03-2005, 03:23 PM

If there was a main counterargument to the bible it would be this:

I would like you to try and differentiate the bible from other religeous books such as the Q'uaran.

If you can do so in some way, then perhaps you would have an argument, but the Bible is just as valid as other books. It's just what you choose to believe.

George Sherman · 05-03-2005, 03:49 PM

There is a reason that this argument is so hard to...hold, I guess would be right. The reason being that if you believe in the word of God, i.e. the bible, you have faith. You can't argue faith. Active, I wish I could come up with an interesting argument for you, but when it comes down to faith, you can't argue it.

AcTivE · 05-03-2005, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DJ FC:
If there was a main counterargument to the bible it would be this:

I would like you to try and differentiate the bible from other religeous books such as the Q'uaran.

If you can do so in some way, then perhaps you would have an argument, but the Bible is just as valid as other books. It's just what you choose to believe.

Why does it need to be differentiated? I'm not saying the others are wrong, just trying to build a foundation for a reason to believe the Bible.

And yes, it is which one you choose to believe--but I think any text Truth needs to be sought. As soon as you hear or read something, and realize it's true, and can not be false--isn't that believing? I'm sure I have beliefs that align to other religious texts--but I haven't read them, so I wouldn't know.

Quote:

Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:
How many years has it been since the bible was written?

How many different versions of the bible are there? Which one is translated correctly, without using superlatives and exaggerations where they weren't originally?

Also, how did the bible come together? I know it has many different sections done by different people, but how did all those sections get put together? As Butcher pointed out, it was written by man, and that leaves room for errors and manipulations.

Does any of this matter, if you can read it and understand that there is truth to what is being said? That brings all the validity it needs...correct?

And as I pointed out--it had to be created by man. We live in an imperfect world, how could there be a perfect text straight from God?

[ May 03, 2005, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

MAGICLIT · 05-03-2005, 07:25 PM

"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."

-Bertrand Russell
English author, mathematician, & philosopher

I really love this quote because it is so incredibly true.........

bloodyfart · 05-03-2005, 07:37 PM

i didnt read any of this drivel; however, seeing that i got my degree in this shit, i must chime in on a couple of things.

1. DINOSAUR BONES thats right, motherfucker, dinosaur bones. where the fuck are they in the time scheme of the bible? if the world was started 6-7000 years ago, like the bible proposes, then where the hell do the dinosaurs fit in. they roamed the earth millions of years ago, yet the bible says the world isnt even 1/100th that old? so who is right? and if you use that bullshit test of faith excuse, then you call in to question the legitimacy of all science. do you really want to do that? cause it is much easier to defend science than the bible.

moreover, on this one fact alone, dinosaur bones, you should not believe in the legitimacy of the bible. for if it is wrong in this case, then how could it be right in other areas. are you going to pick and choose which parts to believe and which ones not too. if you do, then you are saying that you are a vessel of god who has the power to edit his divine words, which turns into a philosophical nightmare.

2. the second thing i have to say is religion aint vegas what do i mean by this? the title of this thread implies that you want to believe to avoid damnation. do you think god will find your heart to be true if your motivation for belief is everlasting joy and fear of pain? probably not. faith is not some gamble where you hedge your bets for the best possible outcome. you believe because you do,not cause you are scared.

3. my third and final point believe what you want you can construct an argument for or against anything i say, and those arguments can last longer than the days you have left on this planet. so, do what you want cause arguing over it will be fruitless.

Mr. Blonde · 05-03-2005, 07:46 PM

"Perfect text straight from God" is what many, many Christians believe the Bible is.

Quote:

Originally posted by AcTivE:

And as I pointed out--it had to be created by man. We live in an imperfect world, how could there be a perfect text straight from God?

Good question. That should answer your entire question for the thread.

Ironic Mustache · 05-03-2005, 07:58 PM

LMAO at two velociraptors marching side by side to get on the arc.

bloodyfart · 05-03-2005, 08:18 PM

lol @ the arc. the story was stolen practically word for word from "the epic of gilgamesh" and the seven days of the creation of the earth was stolen almost word for word from the "enuma elish"

Mr. Blonde · 05-03-2005, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ironic Mustache:
LMAO at two velociraptors marching side by side to get on the arc.

Ironic Mustache · 05-03-2005, 08:24 PM

The bow is an excellent way to distinguish between the males and females.

I was going to photoshop something similar to this actually, but I'm off work so said fuck it. I'm glad someone did it.

MAGICLIT · 05-03-2005, 08:25 PM

wheres the elephant and the giraffe's bitches on the arc? there should be two no? Is the story of Noah complete bullshit???????OMG!!!NO WAY!!

blackbirdsjoy · 05-03-2005, 08:53 PM

Well I’m not sure how much of a waste my time is on this thread, but the bible wasn't handed to Moses or anyone from the hand of God. Its book compiled of smaller books and letters, and yes by man. There are many different kinds of bibles, i.e. the bible put together by Jefferson says anything that he wanted it too. Anytime he didn't like what God had to say to him he just cut it out. But the basic editions, NIV, NASB, have set rules to them. If a book contains text that contradicts the rest of the bible, then it can't be apart of it. However, many people find many contradictory passages: www.evilbible.com . This is because there possibly taking the text out of context. For example the bible is actually two religions. The first part; the Old Testament, contains a lot of the Jewish religion, while the last part; the New Testament, is Christianity. And being of two different natures they will contradict each other, like apple and oranges. However bloodyfart has a lot of wisdom on the third point. If the bible could have been proven correct it would have been done so along time ago, you're not going to find anything new on this message board, and unfortunately there are people who will believe in it no matter what and there are those who will not believe in it just as stubbornly. Do research on your own, don't depend on others to convince you of where you should stand.
I've heard that "Case for Christ" is a good book for the questions you have, but i have yet to totally get through it myself.

Mr. Blonde · 05-03-2005, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MAGICLIT:
wheres the elephant and the giraffe's bitches on the arc? there should be two no? Is the story of Noah complete bullshit???????OMG!!!NO WAY!!

They are orally pleasuring the men so they can get their minds off of being seasick. That's why you can't see them.

Niger Angelus · 05-03-2005, 10:08 PM

'Mere Christianity' - Clive Staples Lewis is a good read as well for anyone who wants to form their own opinion.

[ May 03, 2005, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Niger Angelus ]

AcTivE · 05-03-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bloodyfart:
i didnt read any of this drivel; however, seeing that i got my degree in this shit, i must chime in on a couple of things.

Bloody, the reason you are hated is because you can't do a simple thing, like read the first post in a thread.

AcTivE · 05-03-2005, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackbirdsjoy:
Well I’m not sure how much of a waste my time is on this thread, but the bible wasn't handed to Moses or anyone from the hand of God. Its book compiled of smaller books and letters, and yes by man. There are many different kinds of bibles, i.e. the bible put together by Jefferson says anything that he wanted it too. Anytime he didn't like what God had to say to him he just cut it out. But the basic editions, NIV, NASB, have set rules to them. If a book contains text that contradicts the rest of the bible, then it can't be apart of it. However, many people find many contradictory passages: www.evilbible.com . This is because there possibly taking the text out of context. For example the bible is actually two religions. The first part; the Old Testament, contains a lot of the Jewish religion, while the last part; the New Testament, is Christianity. And being of two different natures they will contradict each other, like apple and oranges. However bloodyfart has a lot of wisdom on the third point. If the bible could have been proven correct it would have been done so along time ago, you're not going to find anything new on this message board, and unfortunately there are people who will believe in it no matter what and there are those who will not believe in it just as stubbornly. Do research on your own, don't depend on others to convince you of where you should stand.
I've heard that "Case for Christ" is a good book for the questions you have, but i have yet to totally get through it myself.

Also, if it is a waste of your time, don't post. You are now at the level of Bloody.

I haven't gotten into ANYTHING yet, and I can already see this isn't going to be of any use because of preconceded ideas that are brought to the thread without even reading the argument. I appreciate the picture too Blonde, you are a help.

I'll go ahead and stop here, because no one seems to care, but rather wants to bash it. That is fine, I know where you are coming from, and you won't be moving from there any time soon.

If any one wishes me to continue, I will.

05-03-2005, 10:42 PM

Well I tried, Active. You didn't give me a satisfactory answer.

If you can tell me why I should believe Christianity rather than some other religeon besides the common circular reasoning, then the Bible carries weight. But a book that says it is right because it has the authority because it says it's right carries little hard credibility in my book.

AcTivE · 05-03-2005, 10:43 PM

I replied to that...did you not see it? Look above--I asked questions for points of disagreement--you need to say where you disagree so I understand where you are coming from.

The point I'm making, if a retard said "The dog is red." and the dog is indeed red, does it matter whether a smart man, or a retard said it? They are both something that you can look at, and realize--"Yes, that is true"

[ May 03, 2005, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

05-03-2005, 10:45 PM

I said you need to differentiate. There is no debate to this. If you can't differentiate the Bible's credibility from other Religeous books credibilities then I might as well flip a coin as to which I shall studdy.

If your answer is that we don't need to differentiate, then what incentive do I have to choose the Bible over the others. (Allthough more than likely you are going to do this by making a differentiation)

AcTivE · 05-03-2005, 10:48 PM

I have an incentive to persue the Bible, because thats what I have been brought up with. So I have a natural tendency to verify the things that I have been told--before searching for answers in another text that I do not know.

And credibility, prophecies align that were recorded by different authors from different time periods...

And I am not saying "Believe christianity", I'm saying why shouldn't I give time to investigate the Truths that could be found in the Bible?

[ May 03, 2005, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

05-03-2005, 03:22 AM	#1 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	This year I've read a variety of different things which has prompted me to have an interest in reading the Bible from a different perspective than I have before. I want to start this thread because I would like to create an argument against what I have to say. Please do not post if you are not going to make any attempt to follow the argument. I would love to have someone find flaw in my reasoning, and hopefully create an interesting debate. Once again, if this is something that doesn't interest you, then please don't fuck it up with your shitty posts. I am not going to begin by writing a super long thread stating what I believe--but rather will begin with saying, Why should I not base my beliefs of the Bible? Or would you say--there is no reason not to? and it begins [img]graemlins/dance.gif[/img]
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

05-03-2005, 03:29 AM	#2 (permalink)
the Butcher Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: that one place...you know, with the fire and damnation? oh yeh, hell. Posts: 895 Internets: 10	the reason that you shouldn't base your beliefs off of the bible is because of how flawed and inaccurate it is. the bible was composed from the hand of man, therefore it is capable of errors. although christians could say that the bible is the living word of god, we have no proof to show us that god himself influenced/created/inspired it. to base your beliefs off of a book written nearly 2000 years ago would be quite silly, seeing that nearly everything is different in this present-day environment.
	meet me at the corner of 5th and pontiac. and make sure that no one else is with you, if you wish to see them alive again.

05-03-2005, 03:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	Do you believe that in order to create something--that you must become it? What I mean is, nothing that has ever been invented, has come into existence without someone first realizing the possibility, and then bringing it about to be? Alright..I'm sure you probably do. Now, if you believe in a God, something that can "save" you...how would he ever send a message to you? After the world was created, and then sin...God could not just create something perfect in an imperfect world...agreed? Freewill chose sin, so "salvation" has to be found after encountering sin. If God were to just make everything perfect again--our freewill would choose sin, without prior knowledge of what imperfection is. Follow that? This to me seems to be a pretty sound argument, if you disagree with that, tell me and I'll clarify why it has to be true. So after man sinned, we were imperfect. We can not be perfect--agreed? Now God, is perfect. How can he understand the position of a sinner, if he is without sin? God would first have to "forget" that he is without sin, and become the sinner. I believe the people that wrote the Bible, are people who realized a Truth, or realized the importance of an event, so recorded it. I believe the only way for God to send a message to us--is to show us understanding...agreed? [ May 03, 2005, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

05-03-2005, 12:04 PM	#4 (permalink)
ProfessorNumber Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,215 Internets: 3373	How many years has it been since the bible was written? How many different versions of the bible are there? Which one is translated correctly, without using superlatives and exaggerations where they weren't originally? Also, how did the bible come together? I know it has many different sections done by different people, but how did all those sections get put together? As Butcher pointed out, it was written by man, and that leaves room for errors and manipulations.
	Smoke a cigarette and lie some more -- These conversations kill.

05-03-2005, 02:04 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ironic Mustache G'd up from the feet up. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cali Posts: 7,146 Supreme Emperor of the Jiu Jitsu Shit Forum?: Yes Internets: 114735	I think only one of the apostles was even literate. Jesus is a trick biznatch.
	Creeping around as I please nonchalantly like any other Supreme Emperor might.

05-03-2005, 03:23 PM	#6 (permalink)
DJ FC Guest Posts: n/a	If there was a main counterargument to the bible it would be this: I would like you to try and differentiate the bible from other religeous books such as the Q'uaran. If you can do so in some way, then perhaps you would have an argument, but the Bible is just as valid as other books. It's just what you choose to believe.
DJ FC Guest Posts: n/a

05-03-2005, 03:49 PM	#7 (permalink)
George Sherman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Fullerton & Damen Posts: 1,109 Internets: 14	There is a reason that this argument is so hard to...hold, I guess would be right. The reason being that if you believe in the word of God, i.e. the bible, you have faith. You can't argue faith. Active, I wish I could come up with an interesting argument for you, but when it comes down to faith, you can't argue it.
	...to abuse the testicles of the establishment.

05-03-2005, 07:25 PM	#9 (permalink)
MAGICLIT Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: city of sin Posts: 2,753 Internets: 10	"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong." -Bertrand Russell English author, mathematician, & philosopher I really love this quote because it is so incredibly true.........
	I am all in favor of a ruling class, especially since I rule.

05-03-2005, 07:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
bloodyfart Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: side control Posts: 2,044 Internets: 203	i didnt read any of this drivel; however, seeing that i got my degree in this shit, i must chime in on a couple of things. 1. DINOSAUR BONES thats right, motherfucker, dinosaur bones. where the fuck are they in the time scheme of the bible? if the world was started 6-7000 years ago, like the bible proposes, then where the hell do the dinosaurs fit in. they roamed the earth millions of years ago, yet the bible says the world isnt even 1/100th that old? so who is right? and if you use that bullshit test of faith excuse, then you call in to question the legitimacy of all science. do you really want to do that? cause it is much easier to defend science than the bible. moreover, on this one fact alone, dinosaur bones, you should not believe in the legitimacy of the bible. for if it is wrong in this case, then how could it be right in other areas. are you going to pick and choose which parts to believe and which ones not too. if you do, then you are saying that you are a vessel of god who has the power to edit his divine words, which turns into a philosophical nightmare. 2. the second thing i have to say is religion aint vegas what do i mean by this? the title of this thread implies that you want to believe to avoid damnation. do you think god will find your heart to be true if your motivation for belief is everlasting joy and fear of pain? probably not. faith is not some gamble where you hedge your bets for the best possible outcome. you believe because you do,not cause you are scared. 3. my third and final point believe what you want you can construct an argument for or against anything i say, and those arguments can last longer than the days you have left on this planet. so, do what you want cause arguing over it will be fruitless.
	<b>We're here, and we're queer, so get used to it</b>

05-03-2005, 07:58 PM	#12 (permalink)
Ironic Mustache G'd up from the feet up. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cali Posts: 7,146 Supreme Emperor of the Jiu Jitsu Shit Forum?: Yes Internets: 114735	LMAO at two velociraptors marching side by side to get on the arc.
	Creeping around as I please nonchalantly like any other Supreme Emperor might.

05-03-2005, 08:18 PM	#13 (permalink)
bloodyfart Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: side control Posts: 2,044 Internets: 203	lol @ the arc. the story was stolen practically word for word from "the epic of gilgamesh" and the seven days of the creation of the earth was stolen almost word for word from the "enuma elish"
	<b>We're here, and we're queer, so get used to it</b>

05-03-2005, 08:24 PM	#15 (permalink)
Ironic Mustache G'd up from the feet up. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cali Posts: 7,146 Supreme Emperor of the Jiu Jitsu Shit Forum?: Yes Internets: 114735	The bow is an excellent way to distinguish between the males and females. I was going to photoshop something similar to this actually, but I'm off work so said fuck it. I'm glad someone did it.
	Creeping around as I please nonchalantly like any other Supreme Emperor might.

05-03-2005, 08:25 PM	#16 (permalink)
MAGICLIT Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: city of sin Posts: 2,753 Internets: 10	wheres the elephant and the giraffe's bitches on the arc? there should be two no? Is the story of Noah complete bullshit???????OMG!!!NO WAY!!
	I am all in favor of a ruling class, especially since I rule.

05-03-2005, 08:53 PM	#17 (permalink)
blackbirdsjoy Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: The Piss Hole Posts: 185 Internets: 10	Well I’m not sure how much of a waste my time is on this thread, but the bible wasn't handed to Moses or anyone from the hand of God. Its book compiled of smaller books and letters, and yes by man. There are many different kinds of bibles, i.e. the bible put together by Jefferson says anything that he wanted it too. Anytime he didn't like what God had to say to him he just cut it out. But the basic editions, NIV, NASB, have set rules to them. If a book contains text that contradicts the rest of the bible, then it can't be apart of it. However, many people find many contradictory passages: www.evilbible.com . This is because there possibly taking the text out of context. For example the bible is actually two religions. The first part; the Old Testament, contains a lot of the Jewish religion, while the last part; the New Testament, is Christianity. And being of two different natures they will contradict each other, like apple and oranges. However bloodyfart has a lot of wisdom on the third point. If the bible could have been proven correct it would have been done so along time ago, you're not going to find anything new on this message board, and unfortunately there are people who will believe in it no matter what and there are those who will not believe in it just as stubbornly. Do research on your own, don't depend on others to convince you of where you should stand. I've heard that "Case for Christ" is a good book for the questions you have, but i have yet to totally get through it myself.
	Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah-nagl fhtagn.

05-03-2005, 10:08 PM	#19 (permalink)
Niger Angelus We still believe. Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,697 Internets: 216	'Mere Christianity' - Clive Staples Lewis is a good read as well for anyone who wants to form their own opinion. [ May 03, 2005, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Niger Angelus ]
	I enjoy knives and fire.

05-03-2005, 10:42 PM	#22 (permalink)
DJ FC Guest Posts: n/a	Well I tried, Active. You didn't give me a satisfactory answer. If you can tell me why I should believe Christianity rather than some other religeon besides the common circular reasoning, then the Bible carries weight. But a book that says it is right because it has the authority because it says it's right carries little hard credibility in my book.
DJ FC Guest Posts: n/a

05-03-2005, 10:43 PM	#23 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	I replied to that...did you not see it? Look above--I asked questions for points of disagreement--you need to say where you disagree so I understand where you are coming from. The point I'm making, if a retard said "The dog is red." and the dog is indeed red, does it matter whether a smart man, or a retard said it? They are both something that you can look at, and realize--"Yes, that is true" [ May 03, 2005, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

05-03-2005, 10:45 PM	#24 (permalink)
DJ FC Guest Posts: n/a	I said you need to differentiate. There is no debate to this. If you can't differentiate the Bible's credibility from other Religeous books credibilities then I might as well flip a coin as to which I shall studdy. If your answer is that we don't need to differentiate, then what incentive do I have to choose the Bible over the others. (Allthough more than likely you are going to do this by making a differentiation)
DJ FC Guest Posts: n/a

05-03-2005, 10:48 PM	#25 (permalink)
AcTivE 1 thing leads to another. Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,012 Internets: -2654	I have an incentive to persue the Bible, because thats what I have been brought up with. So I have a natural tendency to verify the things that I have been told--before searching for answers in another text that I do not know. And credibility, prophecies align that were recorded by different authors from different time periods... And I am not saying "Believe christianity", I'm saying why shouldn't I give time to investigate the Truths that could be found in the Bible? [ May 03, 2005, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]
	___________________ 3:o) horned creatures...wat wat ___________________

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