Athiests CAN Go To Heaven V 2.0

[BigDongedHoe]

It does not piss me off at all, and I'm not trying to be a dick and I can sound arrogant at times as well. I just didn't understand how you could defend getting into heaven a different way while claiming your a Christian is all, and I don't see how scripture says anything otherwise. I apologize if I came off as a jerk, I didn't intend to. I was just as you were: frustrated.

Active-
Yes I see your point but what I'm saying is that is just the first step. Of course we're not going to take what Jesus said and apply it straight from that. This is why we try to understand that first then go from there and cross over to what the meaning is now and how we can apply it.

[AcTivE]

Alright whatever, that's going in circles. Sounds good.

going to bed now. going to be out of commission for few days--basically getting a hatchet to the side of my face.

[BigDongedHoe]

Originally posted by AcTivE:
going to bed now. going to be out of commission for few days--basically getting a hatchet to the side of my face.

Ah yeah I remember you telling me about that down at IU. Speaking of which we all need to head down there again sometime, lemme know when your heading down and I'll chill with you guys.

I'm off to bed too, later people.

[Percipere'Chan]

No Excuses. Racial, Political, and Religious Intolerance Cause Wars. I am Christian until it becomes absolutism. When that Absolutism manifests itself, ‘Christianity’ slays itself with ends justifying the means, and Jesus’ Christian teachings perish.

[Ugly Bastard]

(Forenote: Sorry for just jumping in here after the fireworks have stopped, but I was away last night)

Chan, please clarify your last post a bit for me. Are you saying that you believe in Christianity, but abandon those beliefs as soon as Christianity claims to be the one and only correct answer. Christianity has never been about pluaralism. As far as I know, Christians as a whole have never not been absolutists. So was your line about "I am a Christian until it becomes absolutism" just a pun?

One of the things that my religious studies class has made me think, is: What if all relgions are "right". What if the beliefs and promises of each and every religion around the world come true for it's believers?

We have studied every mainstream religion in the world in this class, and the one thing I have noticed is, not one of them seems any better than the other. Each religion has it's farfetched beliefs, each religion has it's querks, and each religion has it's closed-minded followers.

One of the things I have noticed about those of us proclaiming to be Christians in this thread is, all of you assume that you and your beliefs are 100% correct, and that you must believe them to reach the more desireable afterlife. Can any of you prove that the terrorists who flew planes into the World Trade Centers aren't up in heaven right now with 7 virgins serving them? How do you know that each religion's promises do not come true for it's believers?

That's one of the things that has been pissing me off about Christianity lately; it's lack of pluralism. Most Christians are quick to put down believers of other religions, and tell them that they are going to hell for not being Christians. How do you know this? They probably think the same thing about you, but they don't shove their religion down your throat, because most religions out there are pluaristic, and do not think that forcing their religion on others is going to accomplish any good.

Most Christians our age (myself included), were raised in a home were Christianity was pumped down our throat from the day we were born. I hope all of you at least take the time to step back and make sure that the beliefs of your parents are the things that you wish to believe too. I've talked to Brass about this before, and while growing up, his Dad always encouraged him to challenge the truths of Christianity, and believe what he wants to believe. Brass is a Christian, but only because he scrutinized it enough to the point he decided to believe. Don't just swallow everything society feeds you...pull a Brass and actually examine things for yourself. (Everything in this last paragraph was not directed at anyone personally...they are simply my thoughts on Christianity amongst young persons today).

-Ugly Bastard

[ December 16, 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

[Titan]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
One of the things I have noticed about those of us proclaiming to be Christians in this thread is, all of you assume that you and your beliefs are 100% correct, and that you must believe them to reach the more desireable afterlife. Can any of you prove that the terrorists who flew planes into the World Trade Centers aren't up in heaven right now with 7 virgins serving them? How do you know that each religion's promises do not come true for it's believers?

UB, sometimes you make me proud to be your friend. The moment I read this post, was one of those times. Thank you for having the foresight to see that we don't know the answers to these questions. So many religions seem to have the common characteristic of teaching people to be the good people they know they can be. It's extremely possible and plausable that that's the whole reason we have religion. We don't know which religion is most correct, we don't know how tall god is, we don't know that we aren't just material beings without souls. That's the entire reason beliefs exist. They're different for everyone because we are all different beings. There even seems to be a small percentage of people out there so afraid of death that in their attempt to find a safe exit out of this world they feel the need to convince everyone else around them that what they believe is true in order to feel even safer. I'm so fucking sick of listening to people rant and rave (not you guys specifically, for the most part most of you have been pretty decent) and use their time trying to prove why their reasonings are "more" right than someone else's instead of being real compassionate human beings and respecting each other's opinions and true individual worth. So much good could come of that.

So many gods, so many creeds.
So many paths that wind and wind.
While just the art of being kind,
Is all this sad world needs.

-Ella Wheeler Wilcox

[ December 16, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Titan ]

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally posted by Pliedes:
And again, you just said "in my opinon". Stop giving your bloody opinion and start rooting stuff in fact.

Christianity and the Bible are not sources of fact in the most literal sense. Given, part of being a Christian is assuming that they are. However, doing so would result in many contradictions in faith since the Bible has a tendency to be rather Ambiguous. Therefore, I don't take every word of the Bible or Church as the gospel truth (pun intended). I guess this makes me a bad Christian in the conventional sense, to which I say oh well. Anyway, I'll try to stay more open-minded in the future than I have been throughout this debate.

Active - I can't answer your question as to where the cutoff line for admission to Heaven is. Although I'm not rightly sure how that's relevant.

[BrassMonkees]

ProfessorNumber, once again, please refrain from calling yourself a Christian. From all that you have said and all that you say you believe in, you certainly are not one.

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
One of the things that my religious studies class has made me think, is: What if all relgions are "right". What if the beliefs and promises of each and every religion around the world come true for it's believers?

We have studied every mainstream religion in the world in this class, and the one thing I have noticed is, not one of them seems any better than the other. Each religion has it's farfetched beliefs, each religion has it's querks, and each religion has it's closed-minded followers.

One of the things I have noticed about those of us proclaiming to be Christians in this thread is, all of you assume that you and your beliefs are 100% correct, and that you must believe them to reach the more desireable afterlife. Can any of you prove that the terrorists who flew planes into the World Trade Centers aren't up in heaven right now with 7 virgins serving them? How do you know that each religion's promises do not come true for it's believers?

That's one of the things that has been pissing me off about Christianity lately; it's lack of pluralism. Most Christians are quick to put down believers of other religions, and tell them that they are going to hell for not being Christians. How do you know this? They probably think the same thing about you, but they don't shove their religion down your throat, because most religions out there are pluaristic, and do not think that forcing their religion on others is going to accomplish any good.

Most Christians our age (myself included), were raised in a home were Christianity was pumped down our throat from the day we were born. I hope all of you at least take the time to step back and make sure that the beliefs of your parents are the things that you wish to believe too. I've talked to Brass about this before, and while growing up, his Dad always encouraged him to challenge the truths of Christianity, and believe what he wants to believe. Brass is a Christian, but only because he scrutinized it enough to the point he decided to believe. Don't just swallow everything society feeds you...pull a Brass and actually examine things for yourself. (Everything in this last paragraph was not directed at anyone personally...they are simply my thoughts on Christianity amongst young persons today).

-Ugly Bastard

Absolutely beautiful. You have effectively and eloquently stated the principles behind trascendentalism, or at least something similar.

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally posted by BrassMonkees:
ProfessorNumber, once again, please refrain from calling yourself a Christian. From all that you have said and all that you say you believe in, you certainly are not one.

Alright fine. I'm not a Christian; I'm merely a person who believes that the Christian God exists. Not only that, I also believe that he offers salvation to ANY AND EVERY person regardless of their religion, based upon principles that I have already stated a million times.

Happy?

[BrassMonkees]

If you believe that God grants salvation to "ANY AND EVERY" person regardless of their religion, then you certainly do not believe in the Christian God. According to THE Christian God, there is but one way to obtain salvation. You are lying to yourself if you truly think you believe in the Christian God.

[ProfessorNumber]

Brass -

You are effectively turning Relgion into a game of chance; nothing better than gambling. I think it's fair to say that people accept a religion mainly due to their geographical and cultural surroundings. If God is truly the one and only way into Heavan, then I guess Asia is screwed. Too bad for them, since they don't believe in the Christian God. I suppose after they die they are going to be burned in Hell for an eternity.

That has got to be the most disgusting and irrational idea that I have ever heard. If believing in that is what being a Christian entails, then count me out. I don't want to believe that something as noble as Christianity comes down to a whimsical game of chance. That idea is ridiculous.

[BrassMonkees]

I agree that your religion tends to fall in line with your geographical location. Obviously the entire continent of Asia is not non-christian, nor is America composed of all Christians. Religions are everywhere, although more concentrated in certain areas of the world.

This proves nothing to me though. Had I been raised in a Hindu home, a Jewish home, or in some other religion's home, then I would agree that I would most likely have been of a different religion. But if at some point in my life I decided to step back and observe the religion that I was raised in, and question the logistics that formed the religion and the beliefs on which they stand, I think that I would come back to Christianity.

You enjoy talking about how rational and logical you are, good. It is good that you are so reasonable. I like to consider myself to be a rather rational person as well. I would like to hear more about what you think in regards to salvation. Obviously you know where I come from, being that my beliefs are grounded in Christianity. Yours, however, are grounded within your own logican beliefs on how you want God to be. Please tell me what exactly it is that you believe.

[ProfessorNumber]

In all honesty, I doubt I could put my beliefs into writing as they are rather incomplete. I suppose the most I could do is state what I don't believe in, which I have done throughout this entire thread.

I know what I've written above is a cop out answer, nonetheless, it's the best I can offer.

I've enjoyed this thread, and its certainly given me insight into the views of others. However, I think we are starting to go in circles. I've stated why I feel that Christianity if fundamentally flawed, and you have stated why you feel that Athiests aren't going to Heaven.

[BrassMonkees]

These type of threads do seem to go in circles don't they...I wonder if a r/l discussion of this would do the same? hint hint

[Percipere'Chan]

I apologize in advance for the seemingly ‘Intellectual’ tone of this post. But, then again… I wouldn’t do it any other way. From previous experience I’ve found that I can communicate my ideas and meaning most accurately this way. Anyone still potentially offended at this point should Click Here.

Originally Posted by Ugly Bastard: (punctuation edited)
Chan, please clarify your last post a bit for me.

Are you saying that you: 1a. Believe in Christianity, but abandon those beliefs as soon as Christianity claims to be the one and only correct answer? 1b. Was: "I am a Christian until it becomes absolutism", just a pun?

-
1a. I mean that I sincerely believe Jesus would be ‘a Christian’ until he heard of others: A. fighting in his name, B. ‘Throwing First Stones’ in his name, C. Generally Sinning in his name.

At that point, I believe he would:
A. Parable (-using it as a verb here) to the would-be-Christians, for them to know His meaning of ‘Christianity’ and what it is to have a ‘Relationship With God’.
Or he would,
B. Parable to them what it is to have a ‘Relationship with God’.

1b. *Chuckle. I do think it can be pretty funny. But, I also think it would break Jesus’ heart too… if he wasn’t ~Love Incarnate.
-
-
Next Question: (I hate to divide this up like an outline but you’ve asked such good questions, and I don’t want anyone to be confused on what my opinions are about them.)

Originally Posted by UB:
2. Christianity has never been about pluaralism. As far as I know, Christians as a whole have never not been absolutists.

-
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) has been hailed as the Age or Reason’s first Christian. Due to previous posts already on nubblies concerning Blaise Pascal, I can think of no better ‘person’ to ask of this question (tho, of course, I leave room for exception and argument as well).

Are Christian’s Absolutist?
Pascal’s Wager.
(unlike most historical theological arguments for God,) Pascal’s Wager is an ‘a posteriori argument. It’s based not on a ‘leap of faith’, but of what you can see of his possible existence out in the world.

A priori Vs. A posteriori
a pri•o•ri [Latin, literally, from the former]: 1a. DEDUCTIVE; 2a. being without examination or analysis; PRESUMPTIVE
a pos•te•ri•o•ri [Latin, literally, from the latter]: 1. INDUCTIVE; 2. relating to or derived by reasoning from observed {phenomena}.

God exists because he is the best bet.

Bet A. Wager for God God exists = Gain All God does not exist = Status quo
Bet B. Wager against God God exists = misery God does not exist = Status quo

Pascal himself speaks of possibly staking something when one wagers for God.

What does he potentially put at stake? The Truth as one thing, a ‘worldly life’ as a second? Normally Bet A’s least good outcome is equal or greater than Bet B’s best good outcome. But, with the possibility of staking something, this evaluation of the original argument is disturbed. But still… couldn’t we say that concerning the benefit/sacrifice involved that:

Probability of God = 50/50
Bet against God = finite gains/infinite losses
Bet for God = finite losses/Infinite gains

Using this as the culmination of Pascal’s argument, why would anyone bet against God?

This is where UB’s second question comes into play.
“Are Christians Absolutist?”

Pascal himself assumes a ‘Christian’ God. Whatever the reason, He Wills himself to find an answer to this, his Christian question. However, when the same question is asked of a different Monotheistic religions, the answer is the same. Allah, Buddha, Tao, Brahman, Jehovah… They all yield the same result.

I’m not saying that “Blaise Pascal, the Age of Reason’s highly respected and First Christian says: Christians are not absolutist”. In fact I’m only trying to give a glimpse into how difficult a question this is to answer. One of the most highly lauded thinkers of the Age of Reason could not, In His Argument show Christianity as an Exclusive belief.

So, again:

Originally Posted by: UB
3. What if all religions are "right" … Each religion has it's farfetched beliefs, each religion has it's querks, and each religion has it's closed-minded followers.

.

I’m going to edit this idea and instead say, ‘each religion has people who take their beliefs to the extreme, each religion has individuals that are querky, and that each religion has people who tend to be more ‘close minded’ than others’.

I ask you. Using Pascal’s Wager
What answers do you have for UB’s question?

And I’ll leave you with another thing to think on:

Originally Posted by UB:
4. What if the beliefs and promises of each and every religion around the world come true for it's believers?

[Pliedes]

Real life discussion! I'm in. Give me a time and place.

[Ugly Bastard]

Chan, I like the fact that you've basically said "Pascal's Wager is bullshit, 'cause you could make the same wager for any religion around the world, thus cancelling the entire philosophy out". I had never thought of it that way...

In order to swallow what Pascal feeds you, you first have to believe that Christanity is the answer, and to believe that, you don't need Pascal's Wager.

-Ugly Bastard

[ December 16, 2003, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

[BrassMonkees]

not sure when would be best pliedes. hopefully sometime over break. I'm probably going back around the 4th or 5th so some time before then.

[Titan]

I'm up for any open discussion that we do.

[ December 16, 2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Titan ]

[victim]

I'm in.

This thread is funny, I'm going to go lock a baby in a box.

[Percipere'Chan]

Okay, I have the feeling that you're all going to basically ignore this post but, I'm going to write it anyway in hopes that someone might see what they've passed over.

Originally posted by Titan:
Pascal's wager is useless, it doesn't solve anything.

No it doesn't solve anything...

BUT IT SURE AS HELL (TeeHee) Raises a damn good question.

-UB,

I'm surprised that you didn't pick up on this. You asked "What if All the different Religions around the world are 'right'?"

Just because it doesn't prove or disprove Christians as being 'Absolutist' doesn't mean it's useless. Think of it practical use.

Answer the question proposed. What happens if you plug all the world religions into Pascal's Wager? They all turn out that it's better to believe than not.

Maybe Christianity is NOT Absolutist and that there is a common thread from which all spiritual wisdom takes root. Rather than appeasing one god but, offending many others, isn't it at least A Posteriori better to think that 1. Christianity is INCLUSIVE, and that 2. You can gain the wisdom of all religions? and finally 3. You no longer need fear any 'Hell (as such)' for you appease the root from which all religions are spawn?

Intuitively, (or through detailed examination) this tells us that, It is better fear no Hells, and Accept an idea of common divinity.

Oh well. At least it was interesting.

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally posted by Percipere'Chan:
Intuitively, (or through detailed examination) this tells us that, It is better fear no Hells, and Accept an idea of common divinity.

I like that. Excellent quote.

[Pliedes]

I believe there is some truth in all religions.

Yeah, that's all I'm going to say...

[Percipere'Chan]

*sighs

One last futile remark.

That wasn't a conclusion.

Originally posted by Percipere'Chan:
BUT IT SURE AS HELL (TeeHee) Raises a damn good question.

It was a question.
[note all the 'what if's, 'maybe's, and isn't it?s]

And even if no one disagreed and it became a statement, it only argues a posteriori. a priori agruments are left completely untouched.

*shrugs.
*sighs.

[I tried.]