Athiests CAN Go To Heaven V 2.0

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:

Active - I can't answer your question as to where the cutoff line for admission to Heaven is. Although I'm not rightly sure how that's relevant.

I'm not asking if you know it's a 70. I'm simply asking--who makes the decision of what a 'morally' correct person is. And if it's God--would he be loving if someone missed it by one point?

It's relevant, because it would lead you into a trap--which basically shows you that you are wrong. I understand why you would not want to participate in this trickery [img]smile.gif[/img] . Once you believe something, you don't really want someone to prove you wrong.

[AcTivE]

UB:

Christianity is the only religion which claims to have a living SAVIOR. Correct me if I am wrong, please.

Do you not have some feeling in yourself--that tells you to NOT believe in something/someone that is dead?

If the other religions are correct...and they will save you from a 'hell'--why?

Why would those religions save you? You've lead a sinful life, you haven't been 'forgiven' by these god(s). And if you have been forgiven--without having to do anything more than live a 'moral' life, or SAY you are a part of that religion--then what is the point of NOW? Why didn't the god(s) just create a paradise in which we live.

Is life right now some sort of 'test'? I would think not according to the other god(s), what is it you are being tested on? Whether or not you rape someone--because you won't be fit for that heaven? Who decides what is too bad? 69/100--are those god(s) loving?

Or maybe you believe in re-incarnation [img]smile.gif[/img] That's honestly the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

ProfessorNumber:

Sucks 66% (not sure where you got that figure, but sounds alright to me) is going to Hell. Pretty sure in the Bible it says Christians are supposed to do something about that. Just think if every Christian saved one person. Whole world would be saved.

[Percipere'Chan]

AcTivE. One Quick serious question for you. [no sarcasm]. What (if anything) happens if everyone becomes Christian?

[once again, I reiterate: no sarcasm]

[AcTivE]

I think somewhere in the bible it says...I'm not sure. What I *think* it says is that God would come back, because there would be no more work for Christians to do.

My head is still messed up, so I can't take the time to look it up right now...I'm going to bed. If you really want me to find where it's at, I can probably take the time and do it tomarrow when I'm a little more clear headed.

[Percipere'Chan]

Cool. Thanks. I may look you up for it later then.

[Pliedes]

Percy, I believe the Bible says that Christ will return before that happens.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally posted by AcTivE:
Christianity is the only religion which claims to have a living SAVIOR. Correct me if I am wrong, please.

Yes, Christians do believe that. Point?

Just because they claim to have a living savior (which in and of itself can't be proved for shit), doesn't mean that Christianity is the answer.

-Ugly Bastard

[Pliedes]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
(which in and of itself can't be proved for shit)

Define "proved for shit".

[Ugly Bastard]

Pliedes, don't be gay. You know damn well what I was getting at when I said that. You're like Clinton sometimes.

"Proved for shit" and "Proved" are completely interchangable for those of you genuenly lost when reading my last post.

-Ugly Bastard

[ December 17, 2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

[Pliedes]

[honestly] I wasn't exactly sure if that's what you meant or you were saying something else.

[again, honestly]
Under what circumstances would you consider the resurrection of Jesus "proven"?

[Ugly Bastard]

Christians say their Savior is a living God. That's fine and dandy, but as far as I can tell, he's just as dead as Joseph Smith, Muhammad, and Mary Baker Eddy.

I realize that it is said that he was crucified, came back to life, then summited into heaven. But (call me a bastard), I have a hard time swallowing and saying that he is "Living" after such a thing. In the same way that Christians claim that their religion is correct because Christ is "living", Muslims can claim that their religion is correct because they are a peaceful people. It really has no barring on who is "right" to me...

-Ugly Bastard

[Pliedes]

Your beliefs are all fine and dandy, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm saying, if it could be reasonably proven to you that Jesus of Nazareth died and came back to life, and that Christianity was the only religion who had a historically consistent claim to a resurrected savior, don't you think that would be a good arguement for Christianity?

[keep in mind I'm not actually saying it happened, I'm just asking that if it was true, wouldn't it be a strong indicator of it's validity.]

[Ugly Bastard]

No...that's what I was saying when I said "In the same way that Christians claim that their religion is correct because Christ is "living", Muslims can claim that their religion is correct because they are a peaceful people. It really has no barring on who is "right" to me..."

Whether Christ is "living" (and I use that term loosely) or not, I do not think that the answer to that question is an indicator of whether or not Christianity is correct. Christ is alive??? Great. Now what?

-Ugly Bastard

[Ugly Bastard]

One more thing...I'm going to bed, I'll continue this in the morning:

Originally posted by Pliedes:
I'm saying, if it could be reasonably proven to you that Jesus of Nazareth died and came back to life, and that Christianity was the only religion who had a historically consistent claim to a resurrected savior, don't you think that would be a good arguement for Christianity?

if it was true, wouldn't it be a strong indicator of it's validity?]

Just because Christ is still 'alive', does that mean he is right, and all of the other religious leaders are wrong because they are 'dead'?

If you believe that, then you'd probably believe that my thoughts on military warfare are better than Adolf Hitler's, because he's dead, and I'm still alive.

(That pretty much sums up the "Christ is still alive, therefore Christianity is the answer" arguement in my eyes).

-Ugly Bastard

[ December 17, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

[Percipere'Chan]

Just to throw a wrench in the cogs...

Buddhists believe in a living savior.

[AcTivE]

[quote]Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:

Originally posted by AcTivE:
[qb]Point?

-Ugly Bastard

My point is this, as I stated in the post.

Do you not have some feeling in yourself--that tells you to NOT believe in something/someone that is dead?

Pecip: Do the Buddhists believe in a living 'Savior' or a living god?

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
One more thing...I'm going to bed, I'll continue this in the morning:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pliedes:
I'm saying, if it could be reasonably proven to you that Jesus of Nazareth died and came back to life, and that Christianity was the only religion who had a historically consistent claim to a resurrected savior, don't you think that would be a good arguement for Christianity?

if it was true, wouldn't it be a strong indicator of it's validity?]

Just because Christ is still 'alive', does that mean he is right, and all of the other religious leaders are wrong because they are 'dead'?

If you believe that, then you'd probably believe that my thoughts on military warfare are better than Adolf Hitler's, because he's dead, and I'm still alive.

(That pretty much sums up the "Christ is still alive, therefore Christianity is the answer" arguement in my eyes).

-Ugly Bastard</font>[/quote]You are a fucking retard, honestly. I don't believe Adolf Hitlers military tactics would be better than yours...right now. Do you? If you do, then you don't give yourself much credit. I don't believe someone that is dead will be able to tactic much of anything.

All of the other religions are wrong, in my opinion as a Christian, because they do not have a living SAVIOR. That is the point. Who is going to SAVE you from hell. The other god(s)? WHY??? Read my post above.

It doesn't make sense. If there is no requirement for believing in a savior--why didn't the god(s) just create a paradise for you to live in NOW???

[Pliedes]

I'm not saying Christianity is right because Jesus is claimed to be alive (though it is the only religion to make such a claim), I'm saying Christianity holds a lot of weight because it's claims have been substantiated by evidence. That's the key point I'm trying to make.

I want some substantiation for a religion, otherwise it's just a bunch of talk.

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Muslims can claim that their religion is correct because they are a peaceful people.

In fact they were so peaceful that the Prophet Muhammad had to force his religion upon the Meccans from 624-627. I know muslims get a bad rap nowadays for the misinterpreted concept of Jihad, but a claim of peace from a religion brought by war seems like a contradiction to me.

Obviously acts like the Crusades where undertaken in the name of Christianity, but these things were done contrary to Christian doctrine by followers a millenium down the line. On the other hand, the Prophet Muhammad, a centerpiece of the Islamic faith, was the one brandishing a sword during the religion's inception.

And Percy, Buddhists believe in the Four Noble Truths and seek escape from the cycle of suffering by the Eighfold Path. Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha) is dead.

[ December 17, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Pliedes ]

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Pliedes:
I'm not saying Christianity is right because Jesus is claimed to be alive

I am.

[Pliedes]

Well, I am in a sense, but the life/death thing isn't applicable to every religion. Substatiation for rhetoric is though.

[Percipere'Chan]

AcTivE-

Your Definition for:

Originally Posted by AcTivE:
'Savior'?

please.

[Ugly Bastard]

AcTivE, first off, nice move calling me "fucking retard" that shows a lot of class, and it is going to do wonders in getting me to see things from your point of view.

Secondly, I am curious why you think that because Christians have a living Savior, their religion is the only one that is right. You seem to be pretty firm in the fact that you are a Christian because Jesus claims to be alive...I just don't understand how someone could base their entire religious beliefs on one simple (seemingly meaningless) symbolic-claim by that religion's 'Savior'.

-Ugly Bastard

[ December 17, 2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
AcTivE, first off, nice move calling me "fucking retard" that shows a lot of class, and it is going to do wonders in getting me to see things from your point of view.

Secondly, I am curious why you think that because Christians have a living Savior, their religion is the only one that is right. You seem to be pretty firm in the fact that you are a Christian because Jesus claims to be alive...I just don't understand how someone could base their entire religious beliefs on one simple (seemingly meaningless) symbolic-claim by that religion's 'Savior'.

-Ugly Bastard

1) Hey, if you ever come to know me at all, you'll find out I call it how I see it [img]smile.gif[/img] . As far as me getting you to view things from my point of view--I could care less. I'm going to continue being mean, and point out that it's hard to get a retard to see anything from a non-retard's point of view

Having said that, I'm more than willing to go along with everything you have to say, and explain why I think it's flawed...

so here I go.

2) Answering Percip's question first. Savior is someone who has SAVED me. Reason Jesus is my savior, is because he died on the cross, shedding his blood--for MY sins, therefore saving me from Hell (sacrifices I believe had to be made before Jesus died on the cross to atone for sins...after he died, didn't have to do that anymore, think that's why he's also known as 'lamb of God').

And UB--I'm simply trying to bring reason to the other religions. I've given it some thought--and Christianity seems like the only logical religion. (PLEASE tell me where I go wrong in this line of thinking...)

BECAUSE

as stated before

Only religion claiming to have a living SAVIOR (human nature--which I believe to have been created by God--tells me not to believe in dead things to do anything for me...which is awesome when you think about it)

if the other religions do not have a savior (it'd be dead if they did, since none claim to have a living one...as far as i know)--then I simply can not understand the reasoning behind those religions (I'm open for explanation).

It would seem to me that the gods of any religion that does not require a savior, would simply have created Heaven for everyone to live in. &lt;--Read this again if it doesn't make sense.

If this can not be the cause because one has to be 'morally correct' in this life--who determines that--that god?

If that's the case, you never really know if you are going to heaven--or hell...do you? Atheiests or not. You will never know for sure--because you don't know how your fate will be decided.

Unless you just GO to heaven because that's the way it is....but if that's the case--then re-read the above. Why didn't the god just make everyone live in a heaven to begin with?

[Percipere'Chan]

Pliedes, AcTivE, BrassMonkey, Ugly Bastard, and others…
Please read this post. Though, it looks similar, it’s very different from my last series of posts.

If I thought I might believe Christianity BUT, I wasn’t comfortable with the idea that Jesus would Only have me take a ‘leap of faith’:
I could weigh my options:

Probability of God = 50/50

Bet against God
-----------------God Exists -----------&gt; ‘Hell’
-----------------God doesn’t Exist ----&gt; No ‘Heaven’

Bet for God
-----------------God doesn’t Exist ----&gt; No ‘Heaven’
-----------------God Exists -----------&gt; ‘Heaven’

But when I consider that God could = Jehovah, Krishna, Allah, Christian God, etc.

These other religions believe in ‘Hell’s in which I might ‘burn’ if I choose Christianity.

Therefore: AcTivE’s: “I don’t want to burn” is an argument for belief in all these religions.

What if Christianity’s God is the same as in all other Religions?

Bet on ‘Christian Only God’
------------------------------------Christian: Heaven
------------------------------------Krishna: Burn
------------------------------------Jehovah: Burn
------------------------------------Allah: Burn
------------------------------------Etc.

Bet on Common Divinity
------------------------------------Christian: Heaven
------------------------------------Krishna: Heaven
------------------------------------Jehovah: Heaven
------------------------------------Allah: Heaven
------------------------------------Etc.

I no longer need to fear 'Hell'.
And I can focus ALL energy on reaching ‘Heaven’.

Pliedes, AcTivE, BrassMonkey, & others.

I would really appreciate your help. Please think of it as ‘witnessing’ to me (that is the good spirit in which I send this post). Could you tell me (quotes from Jesus only please) when, where, why, etc. Jesus says one would go to ‘Hell’?

I would am really interested in this. I would like to continue our discussion on it.

[Percipere'Chan]

Originally Posted by AcTivE:
Why didn't god just make everyone live in a heaven to begin with?

That's a really good question Active. I hope to get back to that later.

-P'Chan

[ December 17, 2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Percipere'Chan ]