Athiests CAN Go To Heaven V 2.0

[BigDongedHoe]

Originally posted by Percipere'Chan:

And I can focus ALL energy on reaching ‘Heaven’.

That is a very key quote right there. You see Christianity is the only religion where you do not have to raise yourself up. Where you don't have to do something in order to "obtain a status to get into heaven". With all other religions there is some sort of way to raise yourself up, and earn your way into heaven. In Catholicism you have to go through comunion and become Baptized at a young age. Their are other things you have to do in order to become a certain "status" so that someday you can go to heaven. They also believe in purgatory (I might add again you will never see the word "purgatory" anywhere in the bible) for people who aren't fully clean.

Christianity you don't have to earn your way to heaven and you don't have to do a set of good deeds to get there. In order to "get into heaven" you have to ask Christ to come into your heart and acknowledge that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins and that he is our savior.

I think most people can agree that it makes much more sense for us to believe in a Holy God whom is fully divine without any "extras" to go along with it. Rather than believing in a dead God that we have to worship and do certain things so that one day we can be deemed "worthy" in his eyes (which are dead) so that we can go to heaven.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally posted by AcTivE:
if the other religions do not have a savior (it'd be dead if they did, since none claim to have a living one...as far as i know)--then I simply can not understand the reasoning behind those religions (I'm open for explanation).

Since when is the prerequesite for a religion "must have a living Savior"?

Basically your entire arguement is "I am a Christian because it is the only religion with a living Savior". Is there anything else you know about Christianity, or is that it? 'Cause I'm starting to think that's all you know...

I just fail to see why a living Savior automatically deems a religion "correct". You do not fail to see that, so go ahead and enlighten us.

-Ugly Bastard

[Percipere'Chan]

BDH, if you're willing, let's step back from that for just a moment. We can get back into 'raising one's self up', 'status for heaven', and the idea of a 'dead god'.

Tell me what you can of Jesus' talk of people going to Hell.

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AcTivE:
if the other religions do not have a savior (it'd be dead if they did, since none claim to have a living one...as far as i know)--then I simply can not understand the reasoning behind those religions (I'm open for explanation).

Since when is the prerequesite for a religion "must have a living Savior"?

Basically your entire arguement is "I am a Christian because it is the only religion with a living Savior". Is there anything else you know about Christianity, or is that it? 'Cause I'm starting to think that's all you know...

I just fail to see why a living Savior automatically deems a religion "correct". You do not fail to see that, so go ahead and enlighten us.

-Ugly Bastard</font>[/quote]No, it's not all I know. Yes, because Christianity has a living Savior, I have decided to be a Christian. I'm not up for believing in something dead saving me.

And to your second part--did you read my posts? Does anything inside of YOU tell you to believe in something that is not alive to save you from anything?

Answer that question.

If the answer is "Yes", then we are done with any argument. I have no where to go from that point.

If the Answer is "No"

then answer my question of why the other gods did not create a heaven in which we are living right now?

I'm serious--answer it. Does that argument not make sense to you?

[ProfessorNumber]

Alright, first of all, excellent posts everyone. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them all.

Active - You are really starting to irritate me with your irrational and whimsical beliefs.

Originally posted by Active:

It's relevant, because it would lead you into a trap--which basically shows you that you are wrong. I understand why you would not want to participate in this trickery . Once you believe something, you don't really want someone to prove you wrong.

Wrong again my friend. It's completely and totally irrelevant where my alleged "cut off line" is. When I say that I don't know where the cut off is, all it proves is that I am lacking in a certain knowledge that only God could possibly possess. Lacking in knowledge and being wrong are not synonymous. Second, you certainly refuse to believe anything else that might prove your Fucked-up religious ideas wrong. I actually laughed out loud when I read the last sentence of your quote, because it certainly applies more to you than it does to me.

Next order of business:

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Since when is the prerequesite for a religion "must have a living Savior"?

Well said. Active, I don't understand how a living savior makes any religion more appealing than any other. Not only that, but just because you say that Christ lives(d), doesn't make it so. You are basing your religious beliefs upon a blind assumption, thus making Christianity no more significant or special than any other religion.

Originally posted by BDH:
Christianity you don't have to earn your way to heaven and you don't have to do a set of good deeds to get there. In order to "get into heaven" you have to ask Christ to come into your heart and acknowledge that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins and that he is our savior.

I think most people can agree that it makes much more sense for us to believe in a Holy God whom is fully divine without any "extras" to go along with it. Rather than believing in a dead God that we have to worship and do certain things so that one day we can be deemed "worthy" in his eyes (which are dead) so that we can go to heaven.

All religions ask their followers to "do certain things," Christianity included. Also, once again, why does living or dead matter for a diety? I see no significance in that issue.

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Percipere'Chan:
Pliedes, AcTivE, BrassMonkey, Ugly Bastard, and others…
Please read this post. Though, it looks similar, it’s very different from my last series of posts.

If I thought I might believe Christianity BUT, I wasn’t comfortable with the idea that Jesus would Only have me take a ‘leap of faith’:
I could weigh my options:

Probability of God = 50/50

Bet against God
-----------------God Exists -----------&gt; ‘Hell’
-----------------God doesn’t Exist ----&gt; No ‘Heaven’

Bet for God
-----------------God doesn’t Exist ----&gt; No ‘Heaven’
-----------------God Exists -----------&gt; ‘Heaven’

But when I consider that God could = Jehovah, Krishna, Allah, Christian God, etc.

These other religions believe in ‘Hell’s in which I might ‘burn’ if I choose Christianity.

Therefore: AcTivE’s: “I don’t want to burn” is an argument for belief in all these religions.

What if Christianity’s God is the same as in all other Religions?

Bet on ‘Christian Only God’
------------------------------------Christian: Heaven
------------------------------------Krishna: Burn
------------------------------------Jehovah: Burn
------------------------------------Allah: Burn
------------------------------------Etc.

Bet on Common Divinity
------------------------------------Christian: Heaven
------------------------------------Krishna: Heaven
------------------------------------Jehovah: Heaven
------------------------------------Allah: Heaven
------------------------------------Etc.

I no longer need to fear 'Hell'.
And I can focus ALL energy on reaching ‘Heaven’.

Pliedes, AcTivE, BrassMonkey, & others.

I would really appreciate your help. Please think of it as ‘witnessing’ to me (that is the good spirit in which I send this post). Could you tell me (quotes from Jesus only please) when, where, why, etc. Jesus says one would go to ‘Hell’?

I would am really interested in this. I would like to continue our discussion on it.

1) How are you getting to heaven through those other religions? No savior? Read the argument I've stated about 3, probably 4 times now. It makes sense to me...show me where I'm wrong in it. I'm waiting for someone to.

2) This scripture:

Jn 14:6-JESUS SAITH UNTO HIM, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.

Doesn't say everyone is going to hell--but it says they're not going to heaven.

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally posted by Active:
No, it's not all I know. Yes, because Christianity has a living Savior, I have decided to be a Christian. I'm not up for believing in something dead saving me.

Please define "alive" for me. Personally, I have never met or shaken the hand of this living God of yours. If by living you mean that he lives in Heaven, the please differeniate for me the difference between how the Christian God is alive but no other "gods" are. How can any other sort of diety be dead in a spiritual sense? Perhaps I'm way off here, but I was always under the assumption that other religions believe that their dieties live on in some form or other.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally posted by AcTivE:
Does anything inside of YOU tell you to believe in something that is not alive to save you from anything?

Answer that question.

If the answer is "Yes", then we are done with any argument. I have no where to go from that point.

If the Answer is "No"

then answer my question of why the other gods did not create a heaven in which we are living right now?

I'm serious--answer it. Does that argument not make sense to you?

To me, Jesus is no more "alive" than the religious leaders of any other religion, AcTivE.

That is my "elusive" answer to your question.

-Ugly Bastard

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally posted by Active
1) How are you getting to heaven through those other religions? No savior? Read the argument I've stated about 3, probably 4 times now. It makes sense to me...show me where I'm wrong in it. I'm waiting for someone to.

How do you know that any of the other promises stated in different religions are less appealing than Heaven? Wait, I'll answer that one for you: Because someone told that it Heaven was better, and because you want to believe that it is since it helps justify your belief in God.

I guarantee that if you asked a Devout Islamic person if he looks forward to what comes after death, he would emphatically answer "Yes!" Therefore, the promise of Heaven is no greater than the promise of any other religion; it's all a matter of symantics and how you were raised.

[ December 17, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: ProfessorNumber ]

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:
Perhaps I'm way off here, but I was always under the assumption that other religions believe that their dieties live on in some form or other.

Touche to that.

Originally posted by AcTivE:
How are you getting to heaven through those other religions? No savior?

AcTivE, your religion tells you that you need a 'Savior' to get to heaven...then convienently places one in your path. Other religions do not require a 'Savior' to get to 'heaven'. Try not to be so closed-minded.

Christians need a 'Savior' because they say they need a 'Savior'. If Muslims do not feel that they need one, then why the hell would they care if they don't have one?

-Ugly Bastard

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:
Perhaps I'm way off here, but I was always under the assumption that other religions believe that their dieties live on in some form or other.

Touche to that.

Originally posted by AcTivE:
How are you getting to heaven through those other religions? No savior?

AcTivE, your religion tells you that you need a 'Savior' to get to heaven...then convienently places one in your path. Other religions do not require a 'Savior' to get to 'heaven'. Try not to be so closed-minded.

Christians need a 'Savior' because they say they need a 'Savior'. If Muslims do not feel that they need one, then why the hell would they care if they don't have one?

-Ugly Bastard</font>[/quote]1) How am I being closed minded?

2) I don't care if muslims have a savior or not. I'm simply saying, if the muslims don't have one, why didn't the muslim god create a paradise in which they live in RIGHT now. WHY GO THROUGH THIS WORLD?

Quit being so closed minded, and answer that question.

[Ugly Bastard]

AcTivE, I find you to be closed minded when you make comments like "how are believers of other religions going to get to heaven if they do not have a savior?"

The reason I call you closed minded for that, is because I believe that if you would open your mind up, and realize that other religions do not feel they need a Savior, you probably wouldn't make comments like that.

-Ugly Bastard

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by ProfessorNumber:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Originally posted by Active:
No, it's not all I know. Yes, because Christianity has a living Savior, I have decided to be a Christian. I'm not up for believing in something dead saving me.

Please define "alive" for me. Personally, I have never met or shaken the hand of this living God of yours. If by living you mean that he lives in Heaven, the please differeniate for me the difference between how the Christian God is alive but no other "gods" are. How can any other sort of diety be dead in a spiritual sense? Perhaps I'm way off here, but I was always under the assumption that other religions believe that their dieties live on in some form or other.</font>[/quote]1) If you want to be a dick, be a dick. I've never met any god(s). We can stop this thread right here if you want to go that way. No one has (that is alive today anyway)

2) I mean he is alive. He lives in me [img]smile.gif[/img]

3) Yes, the other 'dieties' are alive (according to whoever believes in them...at least I would assume) I'm pointing out that their SAVIOR, if any, is not.

and to that, I go again to this argument, which no one has ANSWERED

If there is no REQUIREMENT for getting into heaven, why didn't YOUR god of whatever RELIGION you believe in, CREATE a heaven in which we live RIGHT NOW? WHY go through THIS world?

And to this statement:

Professor Number:

*****
I guarantee that if you asked a Devout Islamic person if he looks forward to what comes after death, he would emphatically answer "Yes!" Therefore, the promise of Heaven is no greater than the promise of any other religion; it's all a matter of symantics and how you were raised.
*****

Read the THREAD topic. I don't care about any other alternatives besides eternal life in paradise. I would imagine you didn't either when you started the thread trying to defend the topic.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally posted by AcTivE:
you want to be a dick, be a dick.

Umm...he wasn't being a dick. But alright. Keep up with the personal attacks, maybe after a while they'll will you this arguement.

Originally posted by AcTivE:
I mean he is alive. He lives in me [img]smile.gif[/img]

Most religious people feel their diety "lives in them". So if that's all you mean when you say that "Jesus is alive", then shit...just about every religion has a living God.

-Ugly Bastard

[ December 17, 2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
AcTivE, I find you to be closed minded when you make comments like "how are believers of other religions going to get to heaven if they do not have a savior?"

The reason I call you closed minded for that, is because I believe that if you would open your mind up, and realize that other religions do not feel they need a Savior, you probably wouldn't make comments like that.

-Ugly Bastard

Why do you continually avoid answering my question? It's not being closed minded--it's simply reasoning...if the other religions do not need a savior FINE, but why are we not in heaven right NOW. That is not being closed minded. Avoiding answering my question, and simply saying 'You are closed minded', is.

I offer opportunities of argument. When you simply say 'You are closed minded.', that's the end of the argument, at least in your mind.

[Ugly Bastard]

Originally posted by AcTivE:
if the other religions do not need a savior FINE, but why are we not in heaven right NOW?

I'll answer your question as soon as you can prove to me that heaven exists. Also, how do you know that we aren't in heaven right now? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Don't you see how hallow your arguements are?

-Ugly Bastard

[ December 17, 2003, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AcTivE:
you want to be a dick, be a dick.

Umm...he wasn't being a dick. But alright. Keep up with the personal attacks, maybe after a while they'll will you this arguement.

Originally posted by AcTivE:
I mean he is alive. He lives in me [img]smile.gif[/img]

Most religious people feel their diety "lives in them". So if that's all you mean when you say that "Jesus is alive", then shit...just about every religion has a living God.

-Ugly Bastard</font>[/quote]This is why you are a fucking retard. (Hey, I followed your advice)

If he wants to say he has never met Jesus, even though he is considered 'alive', I want to point out that indeed, he IS a dick, because he is claiming the validity of other religions, in that they also believe their deity is 'alive', although he has almost most definetely never met one.

2) Tell me one.

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AcTivE:
if the other religions do not need a savior FINE, but why are we not in heaven right NOW?

I'll answer your question as soon as you can prove to me that heaven exists. Also, how do you know that we aren't in heaven right now? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Don't you see how hallow your arguements are?

-Ugly Bastard</font>[/quote]No, I don't, please help me.

The definition of heaven, in my head, is eternal. Life as we know it is not. If you want to argue that what we are living right now is heaven, start another thread. Read the thread title. it says 'Athiests CAN go to Heaven'

[edit]
If you are aruging this is heaven demons can go to heaven.

[ December 17, 2003, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: AcTivE ]

[AcTivE]

Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AcTivE:
if the other religions do not need a savior FINE, but why are we not in heaven right NOW?

I'll answer your question as soon as you can prove to me that heaven exists. Also, how do you know that we aren't in heaven right now? [img]smile.gif[/img]

-Ugly Bastard</font>[/quote]It's just so stupid...

Read the thread title, 'prove heaven exists?' dear God, we need to get you into the resource room ASAP.

[Ugly Bastard]

AcTivE:
No I don't [understand how my arugements are hallow], please help me

AcTivE, put yourself in my shoes, and try to follow what I have seen you post lately.

You: "If you do not need a Savior to get into heaven, then why aren't we all in heaven right now?"

Me: "How do you know heaven exists? Your arguement is hallow, you can't prove the existance of the thing you are argueing for."

You: "I don't understand, please help me."

This whole thing is quite humorous to me. AcTivE, I think the best move you could make right now, is to take a step back from your beliefs, and read everything you have said.

You are on this big crusade to prove to everyone why Christianity is the answer, and along the way, you abandoned the beliefs of Christianity by calling people "dicks" and "fucking retards".

The beauty part of this whole thing, is I consider myself to be a Christian, I started out just playing Devil's advocate in this thread. Lately I have been doubting Christianity more and more and ironically, you have done nothing but push me further away from the Christian faith in this thread with your sorry arguements for Christianity.

Christianity teaches love for all, and respect. If you really care about getting people to understand what is so great about Christianity, show them by your love...not your harsh words and mindless arguements.

Just my two cents...

-Ugly Bastard

edit: By your countless number of back-to-back posts, and choppy little put downs, I feel it's pretty apparant that you feel you have to resort to personal attacks to feel better about yourself. This makes me feel good, because something I have said must have set you off. The truth hurts...

[ December 17, 2003, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Ugly Bastard ]

[ProfessorNumber]

Originally posted by Active:
3) Yes, the other 'dieties' are alive (according to whoever believes in them...at least I would assume) I'm pointing out that their SAVIOR, if any, is not.

As UB has so aptly pointed out, the necessity for a Savior is ONLY incurred by the Christian Relgion. In the grand scheme of things, there is no reason for anyone to believe that they need a savior, aside from being TOLD they do. Other religions might not feel the need for a savior, or to be saved. That is part of their religions, and doesn't make sense to you because of your Christian upbringing. I honestly believe that if you had been born in the mountains of China that you would be a Buddhist (or Hindu; whichever one is most popular in that area).

Originally posted by Active:
Read the THREAD topic. I don't care about any other alternatives besides eternal life in paradise.

Reincarnation holds a bad or blase connotation, with Americans such as you, due to cultural differences. Do you see what I am getting at here?

[Pliedes]

UB and PN, before you keep going on with Active, could you actually read and respond to my post a page ago.

Originally posted by Pliedes:
I'm not saying Christianity is right because Jesus is claimed to be alive (though it is the only religion to make such a claim), I'm saying Christianity holds a lot of weight because it's claims have been substantiated by evidence. That's the key point I'm trying to make.

I want some substantiation for a religion, otherwise it's just a bunch of talk.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ugly Bastard:
Muslims can claim that their religion is correct because they are a peaceful people.

In fact they were so peaceful that the Prophet Muhammad had to force his religion upon the Meccans from 624-627. I know muslims get a bad rap nowadays for the misinterpreted concept of Jihad, but a claim of peace from a religion brought by war seems like a contradiction to me.

Obviously acts like the Crusades where undertaken in the name of Christianity, but these things were done contrary to Christian doctrine by followers a millenium down the line. On the other hand, the Prophet Muhammad, a centerpiece of the Islamic faith, was the one brandishing a sword during the religion's inception.

And Percy, Buddhists believe in the Four Noble Truths and seek escape from the cycle of suffering by the Eighfold Path. Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha) is dead.</font>[/quote]

[ProfessorNumber]

I'm not sure what exactly there is to say about that post. All you did was refute the peacefulness of Muslim history. Congratulations.

[Ugly Bastard]

Pliedes, I didn't then, and I still don't now; have anything to say in response to that post. You didn't really say anything to inspire an arguement/counterarguement...you just sorta stated facts the whole time. So there ya go...that's my response.

-Ugly Bastard

[Pliedes]

Percy, this one's for you.

Here's the model you presented us with.

===============================
Bet on ‘Christian Only God’
-------------Christian: Heaven
-------------Krishna: Burn
-------------Jehovah: Burn
-------------Allah: Burn
-------------Etc.

Bet on Common Divinity
-------------Christian: Heaven
-------------Krishna: Heaven
-------------Jehovah: Heaven
-------------Allah: Heaven
-------------Etc.
===============================

First, if you're defention of "common divinity" meets the requirements for all those religions, that I will get into heaven no matter what I believe, and that includes a one track mind for Christianity. That is actually factored into Pascal's wager. So if there is indeed a common divinity, it doesn't matter what you believe, but it's worth taking a shot at a religion where that isn't the case.

Also, you're paths for other religions are quite amiss. It's harder to get into heaven as a Jew or Muslim than it is a Christian. They believe there is only one path also, and if you don't follow it, you're screwed. But if they're a common divinity, then it doesn't matter what we believe, so who-rah.